The Main Character(s)

[ekrolo2]

Against ham and eggers. None of those guys are remotely a challenge to him. I like that Gohan is different from the rest of the cast, but those qualities make him similar to most superheroes. You seem to be putting Goku and the other Z fighters down because they care more for the fight than the fate of the world, and while I agree that Goku certainly does, I don't need the protagonist to be a goody two shoes. I need him to be interesting.

I'm not putting the others down: I'm saying that Gohan's proposed desire to fight for other reasons outside of a good fight are precisely what would make him stand out from the others.

He does that all the time. He's constantly preparing himself for those fights and he would've gone to Namek if he could've. In DB, he sought adventure. Sometimes things come to him, but that doesn't make him passive. Even against the Cyborgs, he prepares for them. If he knew about Freeza, I'm sure he would've trained to fight him.

He isn't preparing for anything so much as he's training because he likes it. He isn't preparing to fight some great threat during his year and a half away from Earth after Namek because he just beat the strongest guy in the universe. He isn't training for seven years in the afterlife to fight somebody, just because he wants to.
Almost every one of Goku's enemies is one's who shit in his backyard first and then he has to clean it up afterward. The only fighting opponent who Goku specifically goes after and trains to fight & kill is Piccolo in his Daimao and Jr incarnations.

He also did that back in DB when he entered the tournaments.

The tournaments aren't really good examples. The first one is just a regular tournament, the second one does have Tien but Goku didn't know about him going into it, he just assumed he'd fight some strong guys there and call it a day. If the RRA hadn't pestered him so much during his second DB hunt he would've left them alone too. Daimao and Jr are really the only exceptions.

[Basaku]

Are you getting upset?

Only by your lack of arguments other than "I dun like no1 but mah Goku!"

Then either it's time to end the story or develop him more.

Why? This universe, despite featuring mainly Goku as the primary lead, has delivered rich lore and vast cast of fantastic characters. It would be a massive waste to flush it down the drain just because the author/creators run out of the ideas for 1 character, regardless how important (he used to be). We're going back to the same thing. You think Dragon Ball is ONLY worth something when it's about Goku, I think it's worth more than that.

Final note on Episode 7: New cast is the best thing about it. The worst character is rehashed Han Solo and wasted screentime showing the same old antics of his. Once again proving my point, the movie is at its best when it focuses on the new original cast doing their thing, not same old.

And again, why did you make this thread at all if you only want confirmation bias? Talk with yourself for that, you're get just the answers and agreement you're craving for.

[ABED]

Why? This universe, despite featuring mainly Goku as the primary lead, has delivered rich lore and vast cast of fantastic characters

How is it a massive waste? It's been decades so it's no waste. Why not leave on a high note? It's not simply because of one character, that's just one solid reason to end the story. Toriyama spent 10 years on DB. The universe was explored plenty, the characters grew up and changed. Vegeta's arc was complete. Even before then end, it felt like Toriyama was running on fumes. I see no reason why any series should go on forever. I also don't see how anyone could honestly look at 10 years worth of Dragon Ball and say that he didn't explore his world and his characters. In many cases, the reason some stories stick with us is because they were complete and they stick the landing, providing us with a satisfying conclusion. Breaking Bad was so damn good in part because it knew to end the story instead of continuing on. And nowhere did I EVER say that the only thing worth seeing in DB is Goku. You put words in my mouth.

Only by your lack of arguments other than "I dun like no1 but mah Goku!"

Again with the emoticons. You can't just brush off my arguments as no arguments because you don't agree with them. I've provided plenty, whether you agree with them or not. It's disingenuous to say I have no argument. Every show I've seen has not been better for changing the lead after a long run. For instance, The X-Files, Happy Days, That 70's Show, One Tree Hill, Dukes of Hazzard, The Office, and Scrubs. Even in Batman Beyond, the best thing about it is Bruce. In Creed, the best part of it is Rocky's story which brings tears to my eyes.

Final note on Episode 7: New cast is the best thing about it. The worst character is rehashed Han Solo and wasted screentime showing the same old antics of his. Once again proving my point, the movie is at its best when it focuses on the new original cast doing their thing, not same old.

I don't like the new characters. Finn isn't that interesting, Rey doesn't have an arc, she's basically amazing at everything (she's Luke without the growth), and the new pilot is rather bland. And Han didn't show his same old antics. It went somewhere somewhat new with him, but even then, they just put him in Obi-Wan's place. Again, the biggest reactions were from seeing old friends.

And again, why did you make this thread at all if you only want confirmation bias? Talk with yourself for that, you're get just the answers and agreement you're craving for.

Again, I'm seen as irrational and stubborn because I don't agree with you?

I'm not putting the others down: I'm saying that Gohan's proposed desire to fight for other reasons outside of a good fight are precisely what would make him stand out from the others.

I know, and it's what I like about him, but that doesn't mean he should be the lead. The characters should be distinct.

He isn't preparing for anything so much as he's training because he likes it. He isn't preparing to fight some great threat during his year and a half away from Earth after Namek because he just beat the strongest guy in the universe. He isn't training for seven years in the afterlife to fight somebody, just because he wants to.
Almost every one of Goku's enemies is one's who shit in his backyard first and then he has to clean it up afterward. The only fighting opponent who Goku specifically goes after and trains to fight & kill is Piccolo in his Daimao and Jr incarnations.

He's always preparing so he can be the best and beat any threat that comes his way. He trains hard regardless of circumstance. That's being proactive. Your view is centered around the threats and the idea that if he's not some superhero, then he's not proactive. Goku's goal is different. He's not after being the savior of the world. His greatest desire is to be the best, so he takes active steps towards that goal.

[Basaku]

Why not leave on a high note?

Cell saga ended 20+ years ago, too late for that.

I see no reason why any series should go on forever.

This is a theoretical debate. The series will run for many more decades because it's proven itself to be highly profitable and able to stand the test of time, obe way or another. The question is how to continue it as well as possible (and along it as profitable as possible).

And nowhere did I EVER say that the only thing worth seeing in DB is Goku. You put words in my mouth.

You want to end the series if it doesn't feature Goku as undisputed #1 lead. Not even supporting mentor role is good enough for you. Yes, that absolutely equals thinking that the series is only worth anything with Goku, it's your own way of looking at it, don't blame me.

Every show I've seen has not been better for changing the lead after a long run.

And people provided multiple example of shows that succesfuly changed the lead/leads. No one cares if you personally didn't see them, they exist and they remain highly succesful no matter how much it doesn't suit your DB-Goke-Exclusive argument.

Again, I'm seen as irrational and stubborn because I don't agree with you?

No, because every argument anyone posts ends with "I don't agree because I don't like it and that makes my opinion superior and if I didn't see a particular show then it practically doesn't exist as an example of succesful cast transition".

[ABED]

And people provided multiple example of shows that succesfuly changed the lead/leads. No one cares if you personally didn't see them, they exist and they remain highly succesful no matter how much it doesn't suit your DB-Goke-Exclusive argument.

It's not "exclusive". I never said only Goku, and no, they provided examples of spin-offs. Batman Beyond is the closest you've come to what I'm referring to and even there, Terry's nowhere as interesting as Bruce. At best, it's all opinion because even if someone says "I've seen it done" they are still stating an opinion. I don't think it's been done because I don't think it's possible to put another lead in a long running story (spinoffs don't count), as the emotional core of the show has left

No, because every argument anyone posts ends with "I don't agree because I don't like it and that makes my opinion superior and if I didn't see a particular show then it practically doesn't exist as an example of succesful cast transition".

So does yours. It's all opinion. So instead of making your point congenially or ending what you seem to think is fruitless, do you think it's better to feel antagonized? What are you getting from this?

Cell saga ended 20+ years ago, too late for that.

I wouldn't consider the Cell arc the high point for the show or are you talking about ratings? ANd I do think you can go out on a creative high point by doing the whole Robin Hood thing and shooting an arrow into the air and bury it where it falls. IN case you aren't getting the metaphor, they should set an end date and then build towards that.

You want to end the series if it doesn't feature Goku as undisputed #1 lead. Not even supporting mentor role is good enough for you. Yes, that absolutely equals thinking that the series is only worth anything with Goku, it's your own way of looking at it, don't blame me.

Yes, I do think the series only works with Goku as the LEAD! Other characters can be important, but not the lead. I don't want a supporting mentor role as I don't think putting someone else in that lead position would be beneficial to the show. In the best of scenarios, he will outshine them, just like Rocky outshined Creed. There's so much emotional equity built up in Goku as the lead that changing focus would make it impossible for anyone to resonate quite as well. It didn't work with Gohan. Cell's defeat wasn't as cathartic when Gohan did it for a number of reasons, not the least of which was Goku was still there in a very real way.

[Basaku]

At best, it's all opinion because even if someone says "I've seen it done" they are still stating an opinion.

Which is why I brought numbers into the discussion because, while they're not automatically reflective of quality, they are hard facts unlike subjective opinions. To dismiss them completly is and put more wight solely in subjective opinions is pointless.

I wouldn't consider the Cell arc the high point for the show or are you talking about ratings? ANd I do think you can go out on a creative high point by doing the whole Robin Hood thing and shooting an arrow into the air and bury it where it falls. IN case you aren't getting the metaphor, they should set an end date and then build towards that.

Nope, I meant the last saga Goku recieved character developement and had his arc essentially completed (by ackowledging he aint the strongest and puttin himself more in a mentor role). It's obviously not what I would want since I'm hoping for more stories focues on other characters, but if we look only from the perspective of what we have till now (which is still stuck with Goku as the lead) then clearly the last arc where the lead was still growing/developing would be the good moment to end it. Not to mention all the beloved moments and characters that saga had besides Goku, argubly much more than Buu. All in all seems like a great point to end it if the plan was to never continue.

It didn't work with Gohan. Cell's defeat wasn't as cathartic when Gohan did it for a number of reasons, not the least of which was Goku was still there in a very real way.

Yet it was still a fantastic & beloved moment for Gohan. It didn't pretend Goku suddenely doesn't matter at all yet still allowed Gohan to shine.

[ABED]

Yet it was still a fantastic & beloved moment for Gohan. It didn't pretend Goku suddenely doesn't matter at all yet still allowed Gohan to shine.

That's arguable as he was going to give up. Goku told him what to do and when to do it. It would've been far more satisfying had that not been the case.

I think a few minor tweaks to the Freeza arc and it gives a very satisfying conclusion and it was a logical endpoint with Freeza being the strongest. Even Kaio-sama calls him the "root".

[TheUltimateNinja]

He also did that back in DB when he entered the tournaments.

The tournaments aren't really good examples. The first one is just a regular tournament, the second one does have Tien but Goku didn't know about him going into it, he just assumed he'd fight some strong guys there and call it a day. If the RRA hadn't pestered him so much during his second DB hunt he would've left them alone too. Daimao and Jr are really the only exceptions.

When he says he's gonna go hunting for the 4 star dragon ball after the tournament, he also says it's a great way to get into more fights so he's clearly looking for some combat, he just doesn't know where to find it. Besides Jackie Chun he doesn't know of anyone on his level, can't really hold that against him.