Pun? or translation error?

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Daimao
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Re: Pun? or translation error?

Post by Daimao » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:15 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote: I've defended Simmons in the past but this is ridiculous. NO ONE is going to get what that means,the purpose of a subtitle is to TRANSLATE. Its something even the most Yatsu Kisama Tachi would translate. There's not even a translation note to explain it. GOD. I know Translation Notes are verboten on Official Releases but GOD.
Oh, for crying out loud.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/juku
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/juku
http://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/juku
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dic ... glish/juku

These are English language dictionaries, by the way. And come on, you're already reading the subtitle track. Heaven forfend you actually crack open a dictionary and see what the word means.

:roll:

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Re: Pun? or translation error?

Post by Daimao » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:16 pm

Daimao wrote: These are English language dictionaries, by the way. And come on, you're already reading the subtitle track. Heaven forfend you actually crack open a dictionary and see what the word means.
Oh, and just in case--
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forfend
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/di ... sh/forfend
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/forfend

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Re: Pun? or translation error?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:33 pm

Are you for real? REALLY? I shouldnt have to read a DICTIONARY to understand a translation made by someone who was paid to do so. Then something here has FAILED. And keep in mind I coincidentially did know what a Juku school was since Justin Sevakis explained it. I'm outraged for those who arent so lucky.

I used to dislike people who criticized Simmons since he was the most true translator to the original. But now I see their point. Its sad that Funimation is either CHO KAWAII WEABOO or SUPER AWESOME FAULCONER STUFF. There is no happy in between. And that Juku translation was in Kai so he hasnt learned his lesson. And keep in mind I didnt mind Weasel's Last Fart!

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Re: Pun? or translation error?

Post by LuckyCat » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:44 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:Are you for real? REALLY? I shouldnt have to read a DICTIONARY to understand a translation made by someone who was paid to do so.
The fact that several English dictionaries include the word juku kinda implies the word is common enough for English speakers.

And Daimao is Simmon's account, right? :D

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Re: Pun? or translation error?

Post by Bansho64 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:49 pm

Daimao wrote: Oh, for crying out loud.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/juku
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/juku
http://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/juku
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dic ... glish/juku

These are English language dictionaries, by the way. And come on, you're already reading the subtitle track. Heaven forfend you actually crack open a dictionary and see what the word means.

:roll:
Ah, I see. One possible reason I could see for him not translating this is that a regular cram school in the U.S is different compared to a "juku". In any case, it's one word, and it really isn't that big a deal. Keep up the good work man!
Edit: What LuckyCat said.
LuckyCat wrote:And Daimao is Simmon's account, right? :D
Yup.
Last edited by Bansho64 on Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pun? or translation error?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:52 pm

OHMYGOD! OHMYGOD! OHMYGOD. Such an eminence in the fandom and I was such a jerk. I'm so sorry.

...um...hi? I'm such a jerk. I have to apologize. I wasnt 255% serious. Sure, I was a bit too "Outraged". I have to admit your subs are great. I didnt mean to be mean to you personally Mr Simmons. I just got off a shitty Precure sub that said "Your cake is all kira kira and Pika Pika" and got too self righteous. I'm extremely sorry. While I do stand by making the subs more accesible to everyone, I think your subs were instrumental to making Funimation more faithful to the Japanese even in their dubs.

I didnt want to meet such an eminence like this. I suck.

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Re: Pun? or translation error?

Post by Cipher » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:52 pm

Daimao wrote:Oh, for crying out loud.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/juku
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/juku
http://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/juku
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dic ... glish/juku

These are English language dictionaries, by the way. And come on, you're already reading the subtitle track. Heaven forfend you actually crack open a dictionary and see what the word means.
What an unexpected visitation!

So it is actually treated as a loan word. Makes sense. I was arguing for it being a borderline acceptable scenario to treat the term as a loan word last page, but I should have just checked some dictionaries to see if it was already standard outside the realm of Dragon Ball subtitles. I don't know why it didn't occur to me that you'd be using those precedents to guide your scripts in the first place.

Thanks for all your work on the series, by the way.

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Re: Pun? or translation error?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:47 pm

Also when I said SUPER AWESOME FAULCONER STUFF, I was mocking the English Z Dub, I wasnt saying it was superior to the subs. I meant to say there should be a happy medium between rigid purism and localization.

But Simmons subs really were a light in a very dark time, where no it was either the dub or Anime Labs "Candy Ass Faggot Subs". I guess I forgot that.

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Re: Pun? or translation error?

Post by SHINOBI-03 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:14 am

Daimao wrote:
Cure Dragon 255 wrote: I've defended Simmons in the past but this is ridiculous. NO ONE is going to get what that means,the purpose of a subtitle is to TRANSLATE. Its something even the most Yatsu Kisama Tachi would translate. There's not even a translation note to explain it. GOD. I know Translation Notes are verboten on Official Releases but GOD.
Oh, for crying out loud.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/juku
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/juku
http://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/juku
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dic ... glish/juku

These are English language dictionaries, by the way. And come on, you're already reading the subtitle track. Heaven forfend you actually crack open a dictionary and see what the word means.

:roll:
And the man himself gives us his answer.
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Re: Pun? or translation error?

Post by Terez » Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:59 pm

People being dicks aside...I kind of understand the point. I have to translate a lot of French stuff and there's one particular letter that bugs me, in which Franz Liszt is whining about Sigismud Thalberg (as you do) and he says "C'est un grand seigneur manqué qui fait un artiste encore plus manqué." ("He is a failed grand seigneur who makes an even more failed artist" literally, or less awkwardly, "who fails even more as an artist".) The most recent published translation of this letter leaves "manqué" untranslated because technically it's found in English dictionaries and was used a little more often in the past than it is today. But chances are only about 10-20% of people reading the translations are going to understand what the word means, so why not just say "failed"? He also translated "grand seigneur" as "great man" even though "grand seigneur" is far more recognizable to Anglos than "manqué". I dunno. It's kind of like Gohan's "Shichigosan" clothes. I looked it up, and I learned something. VIZ went with "Sunday school clothes", though, and it was instantly understandable, even if it arguably goes a little too far in terms of localization.

For what it's worth, overall I very much prefer the more literal translations of the anime subtitles to the often paraphrased and censored or even botched VIZ manga translations. I read the manga along with my last (subbed) rewatch and the difference was pretty stark. I'm also hoping Funimation resubs Super for the home release, because I much prefer Simmons to whoever is doing subs for Toei.

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Re: Pun? or translation error?

Post by Doctor. » Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:02 pm

Cipher wrote:
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:It isnt but its not far off from what other fansubs do.
Oh, thank god.

Yeah; I remember being peripherally aware of the embarrassing "nakama" kerfuffle that plagued the One Piece fanbase for years.

Then again, here we are in 2017 and it's all "ningen this, ningen that." The appeal of the exotic is strong. 仕方がないね。
Kisama are going to pay, I won't yurusan you if you keep insulting my utsukushii translations.

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Re: Pun? or translation error?

Post by Vegard Aune » Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:17 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Cipher wrote:
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:It isnt but its not far off from what other fansubs do.
Oh, thank god.

Yeah; I remember being peripherally aware of the embarrassing "nakama" kerfuffle that plagued the One Piece fanbase for years.

Then again, here we are in 2017 and it's all "ningen this, ningen that." The appeal of the exotic is strong. 仕方がないね。
Kisama are going to pay, I won't yurusan you if you keep insulting my utsukushii translations.
I would just like to point out that you just said that you wouldn't not forgive him, ergo, you will forgive aitsu for insulting your utsukushii translations.

And I know the man himself weighed in here with why he used "Juku" and how that is technically valid, but I personally feel like that term is obscure enough that it probably warrants a more... localized approach. Yeah it might be in an English dictionary... but has anyone here ever heard an average joe in the US use it? But eh, different approaches to translations I guess. I just personally prefer to keep things as straight-forward and easily understandable (and note-free) as possible, so from where I see it, "They can consult a dictionary!" isn't really the best attitude to have.

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Re: Pun? or translation error?

Post by Cipher » Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:27 pm

Terez wrote:It's kind of like Gohan's "Shichigosan" clothes. I looked it up, and I learned something. VIZ went with "Sunday school clothes", though, and it was instantly understandable, even if it arguably goes a little too far in terms of localization.
That's too far by half. I suppose it preserves the basic intent of Gohan being trotted out in an overly formal outfit intended for another occasion, but Shichigosan is such a specific holiday-ish thing that I really feel it should have been maintained in the translation.
Doctor. wrote:won't yurusan
As pointed out above, "yurusan" is actually a contraction of the negative form, "yurusanai," from the dictionary verb "yurusu" (to allow/tolerate/permit/forgive).

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Re: Pun? or translation error?

Post by Terez » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:15 pm

Cipher wrote:
Terez wrote:It's kind of like Gohan's "Shichigosan" clothes. I looked it up, and I learned something. VIZ went with "Sunday school clothes", though, and it was instantly understandable, even if it arguably goes a little too far in terms of localization.
That's too far by half. I suppose it preserves the basic intent of Gohan being trotted out in an overly formal outfit intended for another occasion, but Shichigosan is such a specific holiday-ish thing that I really feel it should have been maintained in the translation.
I had a long-ish response typed up and Kanzenshuu ate it. Anyway, this particular rite-of-passage event is not otherwise mentioned or observed in-story, so does the viewer really need to know about it? It's debatable, certainly.

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Re: Pun? or translation error?

Post by Cipher » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:23 pm

Terez wrote:I had a long-ish response typed up and Kanzenshuu ate it. Anyway, this particular rite-of-passage event is not otherwise mentioned or observed in-story, so does the viewer really need to know about it? It's debatable, certainly.
I suppose that gets into the larger question of whether culturally specific elements should be washed away to reduce the risk of having to acquire outside knowledge to read a localization/translation. In the case of shifting "Shichigosan" to "Sunday school," the reader may get through the scene without questions -- just as the Japanese audience would -- but you've also completely removed reference to the Japanese rite of passage in the original.

I think it's worth noting that we wouldn't be having this conversation at all if Dragon Ball took place in something even more remotely resembling real-world Japan. In that case, it wouldn't matter how tangential a cultural reference is to the meat of the story; it would stay.

In this scenario, while I can see the argument for changing it, I'd lean toward keeping it on the grounds that the reader is already interacting with a Japanese series -- one which retains other cultural elements and terminology, however light -- and changing the reference in question goes beyond simple translation.

This is a series in which a gang of rabbit-outfitted criminals wind up making mochi on the moon. The reader can handle looking up "Sichigosan" if unfamiliarity with it bothers them. Such is the nature of interacting with media from other cultures. I don't think a translation should do away with all those elements just for ease, if for no other reason than the fact it's going to end up making inconsistent and arbitrary choices about what cultural references stay and which are altered, as, while some may be limited to brief, tangential dialogue references, others will inevitably be part of the foregrounded story.

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Re: Pun? or translation error?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:34 pm

Terez wrote:
Cipher wrote:
Terez wrote:It's kind of like Gohan's "Shichigosan" clothes. I looked it up, and I learned something. VIZ went with "Sunday school clothes", though, and it was instantly understandable, even if it arguably goes a little too far in terms of localization.
That's too far by half. I suppose it preserves the basic intent of Gohan being trotted out in an overly formal outfit intended for another occasion, but Shichigosan is such a specific holiday-ish thing that I really feel it should have been maintained in the translation.
I had a long-ish response typed up and Kanzenshuu ate it. Anyway, this particular rite-of-passage event is not otherwise mentioned or observed in-story, so does the viewer really need to know about it? It's debatable, certainly.
I feel for you. I really do. I FUCKING HATE WHEN THAT HAPPENS.

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