Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Simere]

DragonTeam used "a" as the article instead of "the", which is probably correct. He wasn't referring to any GoD in particular in that case.

[GreatWyrmGold]

...and buu just regenerates from his vaporised smoke body

I doubt it. From what we've seen ad heard, Zeno is more likely to delete Buu outright than to literally vaporize him with an energy blast or something.

Any chance that Gowasu may be comparing SSJ2 Goku with Universe 10's God of Destruction?

Beerus got angry at the comparison, and Gowasu didn't immediately explain he meant some other God of Destruction. It's possible that the elephant man is weaker than Beerus, but this quote doesn't prove it.

[Marlowe89]

Beerus got angry at the comparison, and Gowasu didn't immediately explain he meant some other God of Destruction. It's possible that the elephant man is weaker than Beerus, but this quote doesn't prove it.

Plus, Crunchyroll's version of this line was "Who is this man that's not even a god but as strong as the God of Destruction" which was a continuation of Gowasu's previous line "That man fought with Beerus sama before? Then how come... how come that man is still alive?" - it's just a natural conclusion he drew from the fact that Goku fought Beerus and survived, not a literal strength comparison on Toei's part, which wouldn't have been true anyway.

[DBZ Macky]

We also have Goku Black stating in the Manga that Beerus is the "most troublesome" Hakaishin. Obviously, it doesn't mean that he's the strongest but he very well could be one of the strongest ones. I won't be surprised if Universe 10's Hakaishin is only SS2 tier, considering SS2 is also apparently 100x stronger than Super Saiyan God. Though I agree, neither Black's statement the Manga nor Gowasu's statement in the Anime are "confirming" anything.

[IKevinX]

Considering that it's rare that any mortal can be stronger than a Kaioshin, having a God of Destruction such a low level is a possibility.
But would be unlikely as all Destruction Gods have the power to destroy an entire universe.

[Hugo Boss]

Beerus got angry at the comparison, and Gowasu didn't immediately explain he meant some other God of Destruction. It's possible that the elephant man is weaker than Beerus, but this quote doesn't prove it.

Plus, Crunchyroll's version of this line was "Who is this man that's not even a god but as strong as the God of Destruction" which was a continuation of Gowasu's previous line "That man fought with Beerus sama before? Then how come... how come that man is still alive?" - it's just a natural conclusion he drew from the fact that Goku fought Beerus and survived, not a literal strength comparison on Toei's part, which wouldn't have been true anyway.

Good analysis. When you pick the whole context, that makes totally sense. Also, Gowasu didn't know Beerus held back against Goku.

[Lord Frieza]

Well going by what we have seen, all of the GoD must have been very powerful or note worthy before hand, something about them caught the eye of the current GoD and their Angel at the time.

They are all powerful and wield the power to destroy anything. That is why none of them should clash, even if there is a difference in power, they will inevitably unleash the power of destruction (the antithesis of all that exists) and destroy a universe or even two. However they are all individuals and were mortal once. Beerus has never fully masted his training with Whis, Champa is lazy and Sidra is indecisive. While they are effectively all destroying and very powerful, they have flaws. Some weaker, some stronger.

There is bound to be at least one GoD who's power surpasses Beerus's and the others. This is DB we are talking about.

[Bullza]

At least we know that all the Supreme Kai's should be weaker than Zamasu. Wasn't Shin considered weak for a Supreme Kai? The South Supreme Kai was one of the stronger ones but even then below SSJ3 level.

[HeroR]

At least we know that all the Supreme Kai's should be weaker than Zamasu. Wasn't Shin considered weak for a Supreme Kai? The South Supreme Kai was one of the stronger ones but even then below SSJ3 level.

Since Super Saiyan 3 isn't a level I think you mean he was below Super Saiyan 3 Goku. And it wasn't by much using the anime.

[TheUltimateNinja]

This isn't really Super related, but how can Goku only be at 416 in Z when you account for the following power gaps? He's got to be around ~1,000 at least.
Goku
BoDB > 21st Budokai: Shown, implied and stated to have improved tremendously, likely ~2x boost

21st Budokai > Red Ribbon Army/Uranai Baba: Goes from getting almost oneshotted by Tao to stomping him, stated to have become many times stronger by Karin. Also effortlessly beats opponents who Roshi says could have beaten his Budokai self. ~3x at least.

Uranai Baba > 22nd Budokai: Improves enough to surprise everyone, but this doesn't imply huge improvement. Also beats Kuririn who rivals Post-Karin Goku fairly easily using only match level power and is slightly stronger than Tenshinhan who wrecked Yamcha. Maybe ~30-40%.improvement.

22nd Budokai > Piccolo Daimao: Goes from getting stomped by Old Piccolo who was at less than half power to slightly stronger than Young Piccolo who is stated to be considerably more powerful than old Piccolo. Easily 3x+ boost.

Piccolo Daimao > 23rd Budokai: Becomes far stronger than Kami who effortlessly finger flicked his Post-God Water self. Is also slightly stronger than Piccolo who says he's many times stronger than Piccolo Daimao, he wasn't bluffing since it's that stated that everyone working together wouldn't stand a chance against exhausted Piccolo. This means that even while exhausted Piccolo is much stronger than Kami who is so far above Post-God Water Goku he can finger flick him, so his claim of being many times stronger than Piccolo Daimao is true. Again another ~3x boost.

At least we know that all the Supreme Kai's should be weaker than Zamasu. Wasn't Shin considered weak for a Supreme Kai? The South Supreme Kai was one of the stronger ones but even then below SSJ3 level.

Since Super Saiyan 3 isn't a level I think you mean he was below Super Saiyan 3 Goku. And it wasn't by much using the anime.

If we were to use the anime we would also have Kid Buu > Super Buu which is pure nonsense.

[HeroR]

This isn't really Super related, but how can Goku only be at 416 in Z when you account for the following power gaps? He's got to be around ~1,000 at least.
Goku
BoDB > 21st Budokai: Shown, implied and stated to have improved tremendously, likely ~2x boost

21st Budokai > Red Ribbon Army/Uranai Baba: Goes from getting almost oneshotted by Tao to stomping him, stated to have become many times stronger by Karin. Also effortlessly beats opponents who Roshi says could have beaten his Budokai self. ~3x at least.

Uranai Baba > 22nd Budokai: Improves enough to surprise everyone, but this doesn't imply huge improvement. Also beats Kuririn who rivals Post-Karin Goku fairly easily using only match level power and is slightly stronger than Tenshinhan who wrecked Yamcha. Maybe ~30-40%.improvement.

22nd Budokai > Piccolo Daimao: Goes from getting stomped by Old Piccolo who was at less than half power to slightly stronger than Young Piccolo who is stated to be considerably more powerful than old Piccolo. Easily 3x+ boost.

Piccolo Daimao > 23rd Budokai: Becomes far stronger than Kami who effortlessly finger flicked his Post-God Water self. Is also slightly stronger than Piccolo who says he's many times stronger than Piccolo Daimao, he wasn't bluffing since it's that stated that everyone working together wouldn't stand a chance against exhausted Piccolo. This means that even while exhausted Piccolo is much stronger than Kami who is so far above Post-God Water Goku he can finger flick him, so his claim of being many times stronger than Piccolo Daimao is true. Again another ~3x boost.

At least we know that all the Supreme Kai's should be weaker than Zamasu. Wasn't Shin considered weak for a Supreme Kai? The South Supreme Kai was one of the stronger ones but even then below SSJ3 level.

Since Super Saiyan 3 isn't a level I think you mean he was below Super Saiyan 3 Goku. And it wasn't by much using the anime.

If we were to use the anime we would also have Kid Buu > Super Buu which is pure nonsense.

The only real thing putting Super Buu over Kid Buu is Goku not wanting to fight Super Buu. This is despite Goku lying several times in the same saga about his power. Remember, he claimed he was weaker than Fat Buu.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The only real thing putting Super Buu over Kid Buu is Goku not wanting to fight Super Buu. This is despite Goku lying several times in the same saga about his power. Remember, he claimed he was weaker than Fat Buu.

He later says he could have beaten Fat Buu if he wanted, he never claimed to be able to beat Super Buu. Also, Super Buu rivals SSJ3 Gotenks who is far above Goku, there's no way Goku = Kid Buu > Super Buu since that would mean SSJ3 Goku > Super Buu = SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku

[HeroR]

The only real thing putting Super Buu over Kid Buu is Goku not wanting to fight Super Buu. This is despite Goku lying several times in the same saga about his power. Remember, he claimed he was weaker than Fat Buu.

He later says he could have beaten Fat Buu if he wanted, he never claimed to be able to beat Super Buu. Also, Super Buu rivals SSJ3 Gotenks who is far above Goku, there's no way Goku = Kid Buu > Super Buu since that would mean SSJ3 Goku > Super Buu = SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku

He literally didn't say that until he had no choice but to fight Buu. Also, look at the context of the quote. He said that he could have stopped the Fat Buu, but he wanted the next generation to handle it. So he was basing his statement on the earliest he could have stopped Buu. By the time he had the chance to fight base Super Buu, almost everyone was dead.

And the manga never stated that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks was far above Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The only real thing putting Super Buu over Kid Buu is Goku not wanting to fight Super Buu. This is despite Goku lying several times in the same saga about his power. Remember, he claimed he was weaker than Fat Buu.

He later says he could have beaten Fat Buu if he wanted, he never claimed to be able to beat Super Buu. Also, Super Buu rivals SSJ3 Gotenks who is far above Goku, there's no way Goku = Kid Buu > Super Buu since that would mean SSJ3 Goku > Super Buu = SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku

He literally didn't say that until he had no choice but to fight Buu. Also, look at the context of the quote. He said that he could have stopped the Fat Buu, but he wanted the next generation to handle it. So he was basing his statement on the earliest he could have stopped Buu. By the time he had the chance to fight base Super Buu, almost everyone was dead.

And the manga never stated that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks was far above Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Goku said Gotenks would be stronger than him, and nothing contradicts this. Also, judging by the reactions to Gotenks he must at least be far more powerful than Goku and Vegeta, they wouldn't be so amazed if he was weaker.

[HeroR]

Goku said Gotenks would be stronger than him, and nothing contradicts this. Also, judging by the reactions to Gotenks he must at least be far more powerful than Goku and Vegeta, they wouldn't be so amazed if he was weaker.

Goku said a lot of things in the Buu Saga that turned out to be shit. The characters also thought Gotenks was powerful when he was first born and then he went to fight Fat Buu and got his ass kicked. Their reactions can easily been, 'wow, they went from being only as strong as Frieza to being as strong as Cell just by fusing'.

Point is, Goku is an unreliable narrative, so anything that he said in the Buu Saga regarding his power and even others' power is suspect.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Goku said Gotenks would be stronger than him, and nothing contradicts this. Also, judging by the reactions to Gotenks he must at least be far more powerful than Goku and Vegeta, they wouldn't be so amazed if he was weaker.

Goku said a lot of things in the Buu Saga that turned out to be shit. The characters also thought Gotenks was powerful when he was first born and then he went to fight Fat Buu and got his ass kicked. Their reactions can easily been, 'wow, they went from being only as strong as Frieza to being as strong as Cell just by fusing'.

Point is, Goku is an unreliable narrative, so anything that he said in the Buu Saga regarding his power and even others' power is suspect.

Goten and Trunks were already far above Frieza and even the androids pre-RoSAT. Also, Goku guesses Vegeta's plan is to bring Gohan/Gotenks to beat Buu, why would he consider this if Gotenks was weaker than Goku who failed against Buu?

And Piccolo only makes Goten and Trunks enter the RoSAT after Super Buu is formed, this indicates that SSJ Gotenks isn't that much weaker than Fat Buu. He should be comparable to Majin Vegeta at least since Piccolo thought he would be able to beat Buu with only a little more training.

[HeroR]

Goku said Gotenks would be stronger than him, and nothing contradicts this. Also, judging by the reactions to Gotenks he must at least be far more powerful than Goku and Vegeta, they wouldn't be so amazed if he was weaker.

Goku said a lot of things in the Buu Saga that turned out to be shit. The characters also thought Gotenks was powerful when he was first born and then he went to fight Fat Buu and got his ass kicked. Their reactions can easily been, 'wow, they went from being only as strong as Frieza to being as strong as Cell just by fusing'.

Point is, Goku is an unreliable narrative, so anything that he said in the Buu Saga regarding his power and even others' power is suspect.

Goten and Trunks were already far above Frieza and even the androids pre-RoSAT. Also, Goku guesses Vegeta's plan is to bring Gohan/Gotenks to beat Buu, why would he consider this if Gotenks was weaker than Goku who failed against Buu?

And Piccolo only makes Goten and Trunks enter the RoSAT after Super Buu is formed, this indicates that SSJ Gotenks isn't that much weaker than Fat Buu. He should be comparable to Majin Vegeta at least since Piccolo thought he would be able to beat Buu with only a little more training.

Based on what? When was said or implied that they were far above Freeza or even the androids? Also, read what Goku said. He said that Vegeta's plan was to bring Gohan/Gotenks to help them beat Kid Buu. If either one of them could stomped Kid Buu into pudding, shouldn't the line be, 'bring Gohan/Gotenks to kill Buu'. Even better, only Goku said anything about bringing Gotenks and Gohan to fight Kid Buu. Not even Elder Kai, who hammered Goku and Vegeta for not fusion, didn't say crap about them bring Gohan, who he personally trained. He was all supportive of the Spirit Bomb idea.

Going by what has been implied up to that point, Gotenks was still weaker than Fat Buu since Piccolo wasn't even completely sure if they could beat him, hence why they were still training. So, naturally, if Gotenks can't even beat Fat Buu, or if there is a question if he could, he would get murdered by Super Buu.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Goku said a lot of things in the Buu Saga that turned out to be shit. The characters also thought Gotenks was powerful when he was first born and then he went to fight Fat Buu and got his ass kicked. Their reactions can easily been, 'wow, they went from being only as strong as Frieza to being as strong as Cell just by fusing'.

Point is, Goku is an unreliable narrative, so anything that he said in the Buu Saga regarding his power and even others' power is suspect.

Goten and Trunks were already far above Frieza and even the androids pre-RoSAT. Also, Goku guesses Vegeta's plan is to bring Gohan/Gotenks to beat Buu, why would he consider this if Gotenks was weaker than Goku who failed against Buu?

And Piccolo only makes Goten and Trunks enter the RoSAT after Super Buu is formed, this indicates that SSJ Gotenks isn't that much weaker than Fat Buu. He should be comparable to Majin Vegeta at least since Piccolo thought he would be able to beat Buu with only a little more training.

Based on what? When was said or implied that they were far above Freeza or even the androids? Also, read what Goku said. He said that Vegeta's plan was to bring Gohan/Gotenks to help them beat Kid Buu. If either one of them could stomped Kid Buu into pudding, shouldn't the line be, 'bring Gohan/Gotenks to kill Buu'. Even better, only Goku said anything about bringing Gotenks and Gohan to fight Kid Buu. Not even Elder Kai, who hammered Goku and Vegeta for not fusion, didn't say crap about them bring Gohan, who he personally trained. He was all supportive of the Spirit Bomb idea.

Going by what has been implied up to that point, Gotenks was still weaker than Fat Buu since Piccolo wasn't even completely sure if they could beat him, hence why they were still training. So, naturally, if Gotenks can't even beat Fat Buu, or if there is a question if he could, he would get murdered by Super Buu.

Based on the fact that Trunks had to suppress his ki blast so it wouldn't kill 18, and even suppressed it frightened her. Also, Piccolo is amazed by the kids' power. And they're both pretty close to the adults, Goten gives Gohan a good workout and Trunks is able to land a punch on Vegeta. Also, the Daizenshuu states that Goten's power is not the least bit inferior to Gohan's, so Post-RoSAT Goten = Gohan.

Also, that's exactly what I said. Piccolo only made them enter the RoSAT after Super Buu was formed, this means that Gotenks could beat Fat Buu with only regular training. Thus the gap between them isn't that large.

[GreatWyrmGold]

But would be unlikely as all Destruction Gods have the power to destroy an entire universe.

I've always taken the interpretation that there's more to being a God of Destruction than plain old strength and willingness to go shirtless, that something comes with the title beyond a helpful mentor/servant/morality chain/enabler. Things like disrupting or destroying entire universes and deleting people with a word and a touch are part of that.

Well going by what we have seen, all of the GoD must have been very powerful or note worthy before hand, something about them caught the eye of the current GoD and their Angel at the time.

It's worth noting that your namesake would have been considered very powerful and noteworthy even before his resurrection. This argument alone does not suggest that Gods of Destruction are particularly notable in the context of current Dragon Ball, where even characters stronger than anyone in the galaxy was a decade or two ago are considered woefully behind the curve. However...

There is bound to be at least one GoD who's power surpasses Beerus's and the others. This is DB we are talking about.

...this one is quite a logical deduction.

[HeroR]

Based on the fact that Trunks had to suppress his ki blast so it wouldn't kill 18, and even suppressed it frightened her. Also, Piccolo is amazed by the kids' power. And they're both pretty close to the adults, Goten gives Gohan a good workout and Trunks is able to land a punch on Vegeta. Also, the Daizenshuu states that Goten's power is not the least bit inferior to Gohan's, so Post-RoSAT Goten = Gohan.

Also, that's exactly what I said. Piccolo only made them enter the RoSAT after Super Buu was formed, this means that Gotenks could beat Fat Buu with only regular training. Thus the gap between them isn't that large.

It would frightened her since up until that point she thought she was just fighting a powerful gifted human, but nothing too bad. It's the same shocked Goku and the other expressed when Spopovich suddenly shot an energy blast at Videl. Piccolo would be amazed that two brats not only reached Super Saiyan and they're not even teens, but they're also strong. Doesn't mean they can beat up the androids. Gohan was out of shape and Vegeta was handling Trunks with kid gloves. The moment Trunks touched him, he floored Trunks with a single hit. Also, once Gohan got somewhat back in shape, Goten couldn't beat him at all. Goten even complained about being no match for Gohan.

You're also forgetting that Piccolo thought Gotenks had a whole day to train to prepare for Buu. Super Buu coming threw everything off and they needed to used the Hyperbolic Time Chamber since Super Buu wouldn't even give them an hour to prepare. Piccolo didn't think of putting of the kids in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber until Super Buu was right at their door.