Why Goku's stupidity is going too far

[Ki Breaker]

I thought at first they toie is taking inspiration form TFS goku thinking that's what fans love, but Vegeta is completely different from their version so that's probably not the case..

Regardless, a lot of people are experiencing goku to be wrongly Handled,
I expect there to be some kind of change in his portrayal if super continues..

[TheMikado]

I thought at first they toie is taking inspiration form TFS goku thinking that's what fans love, but Vegeta is completely different from their version so that's probably not the case..

Regardless, a lot of people are experiencing goku to be wrongly Handled,
I expect there to be some kind of change in his portrayal if super continues..

The problem is the Japanese market seems to like it.
It was interesting because the Dragonball Room Team was just talking about the challenges of appealing to the overseas markets. I really don't think both Japan and international can have the same show and they may need to diverge at some point.

[Totamo]

So this is like the 5th thread on this, this week.
It is certainly noticeable and I've said this before if you are watching sub versions on Crunchyroll and posting on this forum and probably watched the Japanese streams you're probably on the more hardcore end of the fandom.

That being said, we haven't even gotten to the western audience English dub parts yet where the only way they know Goku is as "Superman". People are being turned off from their favorite characters which is never a good thing for a franchise.

All that being said, we may have crossed into overreaction territory. I can certainly understand the instant reactions the first time you really see how much you feel your character has degraded, be we have probably a dozen threads on it now. I'm not sure what avenues there are for us fans to give feedback, but whatever they are I think we should focus on exploring those avenues rather than continuing to gripe about it on forums. If we want to save our characters and franchise we as fans should probably take action.

I don't think Japan, you know that place where dragon ball matters the most, cares.

Think about, with episode 5, there was an outrage and they fixed it in the blue rays and goku being a kid in GT, they fixed that with ssj4.
'
But if goku is so broken to all of you, why aren't they fixing him? Toei cares about fan outrage yet they have actually reinforced this goku instead of dialing back.

Could it be that fans in japan actually like this goku? Could it be kids in japan like this goku?

If so, then your complaints will be thrashed on the ground.

I have also said it before and I will say again, if you like Goku because he was heroic or didn't just fight for himself then you don't like Goku.

[Ki Breaker]

I thought at first they toie is taking inspiration form TFS goku thinking that's what fans love, but Vegeta is completely different from their version so that's probably not the case..

Regardless, a lot of people are experiencing goku to be wrongly Handled,
I expect there to be some kind of change in his portrayal if super continues..

The problem is the Japanese market seems to like it.
It was interesting because the Dragonball Room Team was just talking about the challenges of appealing to the overseas markets. I really don't think both Japan and international can have the same show and they may need to diverge at some point.

So do we have any hope left ?

[Totamo]

Alright, let’s go through ’em one by one:
– Goku vs Vegeta. First of all, Nappa was the one who killed Goku’s friends, not Vegeta. Secondly, yeah, Goku let him go in part because of how much he admired his strength, but it was also because he wanted to take the higher moral ground and show Vegeta that they were better than him in that respect. It wasn’t just him being some dope looking for another fight down the road.
– Goku vs Frieza. Yeah, Goku was going to let Frieza go… after he’d been sliced in half, had the ever lovin’ crap beaten out of him on a planet that was about the explode in the middle of pitch black space. Not exactly a show of mercy. Oh, and he ended up blowing him to bits anyway. In a world where PLOT ARMOR didn’t happen, that would’ve been the end of that.
– Gohan vs Cell. Fair point here, but in fairness to Goku, he did try to jump in the fight once he realized what a colossal mistake that was.
– Goku vs Kid Buu. Let’s be real here. In spite of whatever Goku said, he was NOT holding back against Kid Buu. Anyone who’s watched that fight could see that Goku was giving it everything he had, it wasn’t enough and Kid Buu ended up kicking his ass. Whether he said that out of misplaced pride or just sheer arrogance, I don’t know, but it ain’t true.
– Goku vs Fat Buu. Again, fair point here, but this is a double whammy of plot convenience and Goku betting that Gotenks would’ve been enough to beat Fat Buu (which, in fairness, it definitely would’ve been if he hadn’t transformed into Super Buu).
Yes, that Goku. No doubt that he made some obviously questionable and outright stupid decisions at times, but not a single one of those is anywhere near the immeasurable levels of stupidity that Super’s Goku treads on. It’s the gap between the heavens and the earth. There’s no comparison.

Not to mention he is probably the most bland and one dimensional character of Shonen hero, Naruto, Yusuke, Gon etc etc

I'm not going to lie, after reading this one line, I stopped reading your entire post.

To say Goku took the high ground against vegeta after he himself said he only let him live so he can fight him again is ridiculous especially after he did the same thing with piccolo or the same reason.

[Totamo]

You've done a far better job explaining things...

Now for those who argue Goku's character in Super is no different check this:

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Honestly, anyone who says Goku's character in Super is handled well has to be a dirty, lying Super apologist.

But it was excited to fight freeza?! King kai warned him to stay away and goku ignored him , master roshi even says it.

This is not a good example.

You should have used raditz, you know that time he was scared to fight despite never being afraid of a fight in his life.

[Totamo]

Toriyama might be good at drawing but not at telling stories and develop layered/complex characters. Drawing and writing are two completely opposite things. Goku is a living proof of this, one-dimensional, illogical, goofy character. One may say well that's what he is about, he has been always like this. The only thing i am saying is, is that he should've progressed at least a bit, having a main character who isn't layered, only loves fighting and sucks pretty much at everything else gets boring overtime. Not to mention they're playing this stupid card of his too much to the point where people are now really getting frustrated with the character, which is evident if you look on forums, comment secions and written articles.

Speak for yourself, I, probably japan and almost every shonen mangaka out there love this character. If you don't like it, thats fine, I don't really care.

You fail to understand what makes goku interesting and different from other shonen protagonists, even hail zeon who is the biggest dragon ball critic out there, even says goku is not a poorly written character.

Also about those evidence from other forums, comment sections and written articles, i read them and they say shit like goku is merciful, goku has a strong sense of justice and goku doesn't hold back in fights.

These people don't know goku.

[Sodhi]

I think they are making Goku's character more marketable to kids, especially in Japan. "Super goku" does not affect my likeness of Goku as a character. In my eyes, this is just a different interpretation of Goku by Super's production team.

[sintzu]

You've done a far better job explaining things...

Now for those who argue Goku's character in Super is no different check this:

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I know they're fan made but nothing speaks more volumes about how different they are then these 2 images.

So basically anyone who disagree with you is a lying, apologist and you support this by using a fan edit?

He could've put it in a better way but really, anyone who says there's no differences between them is just in denial at this point.

Toriyama's Goku reactions and adjusts to the situation like we would. Super's Goku seems oblivious to the situation's gravity around him.

Goku has always been oblivious to certain things but with Super, it's with everything.

In my eyes, this is just a different interpretation of Goku by Super's production team.

Which would be fine if this was a reboot but it's not, it's following the same established timeline that DB & Z follow.

I don't think Japan, you know that place where dragon ball matters the most, cares.

Dragon Ball is a worldwide franchise so everywhere matters.

[Dbzk1999]

You've done a far better job explaining things...

Now for those who argue Goku's character in Super is no different check this:

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Honestly, anyone who says Goku's character in Super is handled well has to be a dirty, lying Super apologist.

Uh, isn't that first image similar to how he reacted when Kaio first told him about Freeza?

[TheMikado]

You've done a far better job explaining things...

Now for those who argue Goku's character in Super is no different check this:

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Honestly, anyone who says Goku's character in Super is handled well has to be a dirty, lying Super apologist.

Uh, isn't that first image similar to how he reacted when Kaio first told him about Freeza?

He did, except for a few exceptions. King Kai, yells and insisted he not do that. Piccolo was the one who stepped in and told Goku to ignore King Kai.
King Kai made them all promise to not fight Frieza. Goku never said I'm going to fight Frieza anyway. He says "even if I can't fight Frieza, King Kai never said I couldn't stop training".

The point being is that Goku at least heeds his warning but promises not to go looking for a fight, but he will be ready if one is brought to him. King Kai explains the same stakes that Beerus does, the difference is that Goku doesnt act like a @$$ about it. Further, this was years ago and pre-Cell. His character has developed beyond this point by then. No one's saying Goku wasn't enjoying fighting, but even in his immaturity he wasn't blatantly defiant enough to really go looking for trouble by searching out Frieza just to fight him when King Kai said not to.

[Kanassa]

You've done a far better job explaining things...

Now for those who argue Goku's character in Super is no different check this:

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Honestly, anyone who says Goku's character in Super is handled well has to be a dirty, lying Super apologist.

This proves nothing. Super!Goku, personality-wise, would treat the situation the same.

[Totamo]

You've done a far better job explaining things...

Now for those who argue Goku's character in Super is no different check this:

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I know they're fan made but nothing speaks more volumes about how different they are then these 2 images.

So basically anyone who disagree with you is a lying, apologist and you support this by using a fan edit?

He could've put it in a better way but really, anyone who says there's no differences between them is just in denial at this point.

Toriyama's Goku reactions and adjusts to the situation like we would. Super's Goku seems oblivious to the situation's gravity around him.

Goku has always been oblivious to certain things but with Super, it's with everything.

In my eyes, this is just a different interpretation of Goku by Super's production team.

Which would be fine if this was a reboot but it's not, it's following the same established timeline that DB & Z follow.

I don't think Japan, you know that place where dragon ball matters the most, cares.

Dragon Ball is a worldwide franchise so everywhere matters.

Dragon ball was made in japan by akira toriyama and is owned by shuesha. It;s a Japanese anime/ manga so it mostly matters there. That's why they get it first. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't know how this stuff works.

If super failed in japan, we would not get it internationally. if super succeeded internationally but failed domestically, it would still end and not be revived. Don't lie to yourself.

In this is just stupid. Can't you just accept people don't agree with you? Can't you just accept people may like this goku better?

[TheMikado]

^ That's not how that works. They specifically said they are thinking about the international markets in interviews about the Dragonball Room and how the markets like different things and how to appeal to them. They learned their lesson with DB and GT, just because it does well domestically doesn't mean it will it succeed internationally and vice versa. The VAST majority of their Dragonball revenue comes from overseas. The overseas market is MUCH more important then the domestic one for revenue.

[sintzu]

It's a Japanese anime/ manga so it mostly matters there. That's why they get it first. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't know how this stuff works.

If super succeeded internationally but failed domestically, it would still end and not be revived.

In this is just stupid. Can't you just accept people don't agree with you? Can't you just accept people may like this goku better?

According to VGchartz, in 2016 Xenoverse sold 108,888 copies on Ps4 in Japan while in America it sold 278,000 which is way over double the amount it sold in Japan. $$$ is above all for companies and based on what I mentioned, the international market is more important than Japan in certain areas like consol games.

Kai failed in Japan but due to it being a hit internationally they made the Buu arc for them and Japan only got it because they needed to hold the timeslot after Toriko didn't bring in the numbers they wanted.

Get your facts straight before throwing the stupid word around.

[MarcBigleague]

Haha why do we have so many Goku hate threads

Akira Toriyama is just trying to make Goku have more ambiguity in terms of morality.

Goku is slowly progressing from a character you'd find in a DC Comic, to a character you'd find in Shakespearean literature.

[Totamo]

It's a Japanese anime/ manga so it mostly matters there. That's why they get it first. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't know how this stuff works.

If super succeeded internationally but failed domestically, it would still end and not be revived.

In this is just stupid. Can't you just accept people don't agree with you? Can't you just accept people may like this goku better?

According to VGchartz, in 2016 Xenoverse sold 108,888 copies on Ps4 in Japan while in America it sold 278,000 which is way over double the amount it sold in Japan. $$$ is above all for companies and based on what I mentioned, the international market is more important than Japan in certain areas like consol games.

Kai failed in Japan but due to it being a hit internationally they made the Buu arc for them and Japan only got it because they needed to hold the timeslot after Toriko didn't bring in the numbers they wanted.

Get your facts straight before throwing the stupid word around.

I'm talking about anime and manga and even then xenoverse was release in japan first, fusions japan got it first, we still don't have heroes and zenkai battle is japan only. So no we don't matter all that much compared to them.

We don't even have a dub of yo son goku.

about kai, thats funny. I thought kai was constantly in the top 10 during its run, you know like super and you didn't even get the damn dub until this year when that shit ended in 2015. If it was truly made for you, that thing would have came out long ago

Its not about numbers or sales, japan plays hard ball when it come to their entertainment and any youtuber will tell you that.

Japan doesn't like sharing.

[sintzu]

We don't matter all that much compared to them.

We don't even have a dub of yo son goku.

I thought kai was constantly in the top 10 during its run, you know like super.

you didn't even get the damn dub until this year when that shit ended in 2015.

If it was truly made for you, that thing would have came out long ago.

Its not about numbers or sales, japan plays hard ball when it come to their entertainment. Japan doesn't like sharing.

We don't matter as much as them but we matter, you're making it seem like they just look at Japan and call it a day. The head of the new dragon ball room said they're looking into what the international market wants as well.

True but that's a very small piece of the franchise.

It was but in Japan a show that's not based of a manga relies on merchandise sales and Kai wasn't moving much. In America it relied on views and home media and it was successful enough to get Toei to make the Buu saga for the western companies.

That's because Funimation couldn't get a TV deal for it until now.

If ? it being made for the international market is a fact, not an opinion. in 2012 Krillin's voice actress said it was being made for the international market.

Certain companies are still a bit old school but they're changing for the better.

[Totamo]

We don't matter all that much compared to them.

We don't even have a dub of yo son goku.

I thought kai was constantly in the top 10 during its run, you know like super.

you didn't even get the damn dub until this year when that shit ended in 2015.

If it was truly made for you, that thing would have came out long ago.

Its not about numbers or sales, japan plays hard ball when it come to their entertainment. Japan doesn't like sharing.

We don't matter as much as them but we matter, you're making it seem like they just look at Japan and call it a day. The head of the new dragon ball room said they're looking into what the international market wants as well.

True but that's a very small piece of the franchise.

It was but in Japan a show that's not based of a manga relies on merchandise sales and Kai wasn't moving much. In America it relied on views and home media and it was successful enough to get Toei to make the Buu saga for the western companies.

That's because Funimation couldn't get a TV deal for it until now.

If ? it being made for the international market is a fact, not an opinion. in 2012 Krillin's voice actress said it was being made for the international market.

Certain companies are still a bit old school but they're changing for the better.

If it made it sound like that i was incorrect

[UltimateGohan]

Goku isn't stupid, what makes someone say that