Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

If Gohan was only as strong as his Buu Saga self, he wouldn't get far in the tournament since the levels of the Buu Saga aren't impressive by current standards.

Well whose to say he will get far in the Tournament? The levels aren't impressive by current Universe 7 standards but we have no idea how they compare to other universes.

Ultimate Gohan was enormously more powerful than Frieza on Namek and he was renowned as being the strongest in the universe himself. Plenty of these upcoming fighters could be below that yet.

By that logic Krillin, Tien, Roshi, Buu and the Androids should all be stronger than Ultimate Gohan too or they won't get far in the Tournament.

And Zamasu wouldn't be impressive if he was only as strong as the strongest Supreme Kai in U7.

Why? Maybe the strongest Supreme Kai in Universe 7 was also impressive. All Goku said about him was that Shin wouldn't stand a chance against him and he was a weakling.

Namek Saga Freeza was considered kid fodder in the 2008 special. Plus, unlike the humans cast, Gohan would be the third strongest fighter. And we have seen that Freeza being the strongest in U7 means absolute crap. Goku scoffed at Dabura for being only as strong as Cell, while he called everyone in U6 powerful.

South Supreme Kai wasn't called impressive, just powerful, especially since East Supreme Kai called himself a weakling, being only about as strong as Perfect Cell, give or take. Goku also said that the power he felt from Zamasu could someday make him surpass Beerus. An odd statement if he was only about as strong his Super Saiyan 3 self that got two-shotted by Beerus with ease.

Well, I wager this should finally put most of those fan-made assertions (and yet usually purported to be stated facts) about Gohan having his Ultimate form before the tournament, Tagoma being extremely strong for Z-standards, or stuff like Gohan stacking Super Saiyan and Ultimate. Can't say I'm unhappy about that.

This "two-base" nonsense sounds a lot like "invisible kaio-kens" I've occasionally heard talk of. Which is ironic, considering that the first place I hard of them was Kaboom joking about the concept.

Personally, I'd say that the two-base "nonsense" is a far more sensible approach than the contrived mess made by TOEI as far as power-scaling is concerned. Even if one happened to back a more linear approach (like Goku having one super-powerful base, with an ever stronger Super Saiyan form), it wouldn't - unfortunately - avoid another quota of headscratchers for the series.

It wasn't Toei who wrote Goku absorbing godhood and making him stronger than Freeza in his base form after he came back stronger than ever. That was all Toriyama. All Toei did was make it clearly that Goku's base form doesn't have god ki.

Even if it were linear, the fanbase could still not follow.

There's a reason the manga kept clear of Goku absorbing SSJ God's power. It was to avoid this confusion. And since it hasn't reappeared in the mangá, I venture that Toriyama wanted to retcon that power absorption. But just couldn't negate BOG and ROF after their respective movies.

Why are you assuming that Toriyama wanted to retcon he power absorption based on what the Super manga did? Especially when Toriyama said himself that Goku didn't need Super Saiyan God anymore since he took its power in. If Toriyama wanted to changed his mind, he could have easily done it just like he did with Vegetto. Plus, since Super retold the movies, they could have easily implement whatever changes Toriyama wanted.

[LowRyder2005]

It wasn't Toei who wrote Goku absorbing godhood and making him stronger than Freeza in his base form after he came back stronger than ever. That was all Toriyama. All Toei did was make it clearly that Goku's base form doesn't have god ki.

I wasn't referring to that particular plot point, actually. More to what came after that.

[Bullza]

Namek Saga Freeza was considered kid fodder in the 2008 special.

So? The kids were also incredibly powerful. Most of the upcoming fighters could be weaker than those two just the same.

And we have seen that Freeza being the strongest in U7 means absolute crap. Goku scoffed at Dabura for being only as strong as Cell, while he called everyone in U6 powerful.

Again so? Frieza was one of the strongest in the entire universe. There's nothing to say that all these fighters who will be appearing will leagues upon leagues above that. Plenty could be on Ginyu's level. Surely Krillin, Tien and Roshi won't all be completely useless, there's bound to be some they'll beat or be on par with.

Gohan being at his Ultimate level gives him more than enough opportunity to be stronger than a ton of fighters. If it does somehow turn out Super Saiyan Goku is weaker than Ultimate Gohan than most of the Universe 6 team would be weaker than Ultimate Gohan.

South Supreme Kai wasn't called impressive, just powerful

What's the difference? Hardly anything was said about him, you're just being nitpicky. I never even said Zamasu had to be weaker than the South Supreme Kai, I don't know why you randomly brought him up.

[buutenks]

See now this is interesting.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

First of all it confirms that Gohan will have his Ultimate form. When he somehow got that power back, I have no idea.

But it says the "strong Gohan of old which surely means how Gohan used to be back in the Buu saga. Someone mentioned that because Gohan is older and he'd have more potential that he'd be stronger and what not but no this is specifically referring to a previous power he had.

That of course means that throughout Super he was weaker than he was as Ultimate Gohan in the Buu saga. Piccolo wouldn't even be Ultimate tier never mind God tier.

So what does that say about Goku? Those who saw that recent episode as Goku and Gohan being equals must show that Super Saiyan Goku would also be weaker than Ultimate Gohan. If that still holds true then there was definitely a retcon.

Additionally it states outright that Gohan had surpassed his father. So all of that about SSJ3 Goku being stronger or Kid Buu being the strongest Buu well this says otherwise.

I'd buy it, except for one simple fact. The retcon is not mentioned in universe. Plus there is the copy Vegeta thing.

Plus ssj Goku being weaker than buu saga Gohan would cause more issues. Like if Goku is only at buu saga levels it means Trunks got from Buu saga levels to ssg level in a day. That and the fact base Goku fought Beerus in ep 43, while a casual Beerus koed ssj3 Goku with a mere tap.

[Bullza]

I'd buy it, except for one simple fact. The retcon is not mentioned in universe. Plus there is the copy Vegeta thing.

Well it'd be a silent retcon with to make it closer to the actual creators intentions if that were the case.

Then again they could also easily show Base Goku as being as strong or stronger than Ultimate Gohan. It looks like Gohan needs to use his Ultimate form against his opponent. Very possible the next one Bergamo is even stronger than Lavender and in the opening Goku fights him in his Base form so...that'd fit with the Copy Vegeta arc.

We'll see. Hopefully by the time this whole Zen Exhibition thing is done it'll all be clarified once and for all.

[pacz360]

Tbh i feel like gohan is going to be much stronger than he was as mystic gohan back in the buu saga due to to a lot of things.
Champa commenting on how tough gohan is in the baseball episode.
Vegeta mentioning how gohan has the highest potential outta him and goku
Goku's recent comments
His mystic form might gonna be a god tier version akin to ssj ikari.

[pacz360]

Oh hey, further confirmation that ultimate Gohan is stronger than Boo arc SS3 Goku. That's nice.

Yep looks like like it's been finally confirmed mystic gohan>ssj3 goku.

[HeroR]

Namek Saga Freeza was considered kid fodder in the 2008 special.

So? The kids were also incredibly powerful. Most of the upcoming fighters could be weaker than those two just the same.

And we have seen that Freeza being the strongest in U7 means absolute crap. Goku scoffed at Dabura for being only as strong as Cell, while he called everyone in U6 powerful.

Again so? Frieza was one of the strongest in the entire universe. There's nothing to say that all these fighters who will be appearing will leagues upon leagues above that. Plenty could be on Ginyu's level. Surely Krillin, Tien and Roshi won't all be completely useless, there's bound to be some they'll beat or be on par with.

Gohan being at his Ultimate level gives him more than enough opportunity to be stronger than a ton of fighters. If it does somehow turn out Super Saiyan Goku is weaker than Ultimate Gohan than most of the Universe 6 team would be weaker than Ultimate Gohan.

South Supreme Kai wasn't called impressive, just powerful

What's the difference? Hardly anything was said about him, you're just being nitpicky. I never even said Zamasu had to be weaker than the South Supreme Kai, I don't know why you randomly brought him up.

The kids while powerful were still kids and the joke being that most of the Z-Fighters wanted to fight someone who was 'only as strong as Freeza'.

He was the strongest in U7. From what we have seen, even the worst fighter in U6, Botamo, makes the best in U7 look like a joke. Just because the weakling humans are in the Universal Tournament doesn't necessarily mean that they will be people below or on par with them. Especially since we don't even know why Roshi was chosen to fight say over Yamcha.

Ton in what way, especially his Buu Saga self. If Gohan does return to his Ultimate form I doubt he would be only as strong as his Buu Saga self since Dragon Ball has always work on progression, before you mentioned the beginning of the Buu Saga, several comments on the lack of a curve. Having the entire U6 team be weaker than the levels of the Buu Saga doesn't make much sense. Especially with all the hype Toriyama and Toei put into showing how much stronger Goku's base form has become with stuff like Resurrection 'F'. Wouldn't make much sense for them to pretend that fight with final form Freeza didn't happened the way we saw it. Also, Goku called everyone in U6 amazing, even Botamo. Something that would be odd if they were all only as strong or even weaker than a villain from two story arcs ago who final form Freeza could eat for lunch. Again, Goku called Dabura nothing special for being only as strong as Cell.

I am not being nitpicking. South Supreme Kai was called powerful, but not hyped as a prodigy fighter. And, if we dare used the Super manga, U7's Supreme Kai outright said that all the Kais in all the universes put together were much weaker than Zamasu. So considering that, their are probably Kais who are as stronger or stronger than South Supreme Kai or even just the Grand Supreme Kai who wasn't a slouch.

I mentioned South Supreme Kai because Zamasu was called a prodigy and extraordinary by Whis and Beerus, who would know the levels that a Supreme Kai is normally capable of. Goku also wouldn't say that Zamasu could surpassed Beerus one day if he was only as strong as himself during the Battle of Gods Saga since he got two-shotted by Beerus.

I'd buy it, except for one simple fact. The retcon is not mentioned in universe. Plus there is the copy Vegeta thing.

Well it'd be a silent retcon with to make it closer to the actual creators intentions if that were the case.

Then again they could also easily show Base Goku as being as strong or stronger than Ultimate Gohan. It looks like Gohan needs to use his Ultimate form against his opponent. Very possible the next one Bergamo is even stronger than Lavender and in the opening Goku fights him in his Base form so...that'd fit with the Copy Vegeta arc.

We'll see. Hopefully by the time this whole Zen Exhibition thing is done it'll all be clarified once and for all.

That isn't how a retcon works. A retcon is something that is acknowledge in-universe or even out of universe like Beerus' power going up in Super compared to the movies. Otherwise, it's called an inconsistency.

[Bullza]

The kids while powerful were still kids and the joke being that most of the Z-Fighters wanted to fight someone who was 'only as strong as Freeza'.

But the Z Fighters are not the norm. They are almost all exceptionally powerful by their Universes standards. Forgetting the Z Fighters Namek saga Frieza was one of the strongest in the Universe and he said he didn't know anyone out there who was stronger than Captain Ginyu.

There is absolutely nothing to say that plenty of these upcoming fighters could be at or below this level. There's nothing stopping Mystic Gohan from being stronger than the vast majority of these upcoming fighters.

The three from Universe 9 right now could all be weaker than Ultimate Gohan.

Having the entire U6 team be weaker than the levels of the Buu Saga doesn't make much sense. Especially with all the hype Toriyama and Toei put into showing how much stronger Goku's base form has become with stuff like Resurrection 'F'.

Well they weren't portrayed as being Buu level in the anime because Base Goku was shown to be superior to Gotenks in the Copy Water arc soon afterward. If there was any retcon in the anime it happened after that.

South Supreme Kai was called powerful, but not hyped as a prodigy fighter.

Of course he wasn't. The only thing said about him was he was the strongest and was the next to go.

U7's Supreme Kai outright said that all the Kais in all the universes put together were much weaker than Zamasu.

It wasn't put together. He said if they got them all together then Zamasu's abilities wouldn't have any peers. He was just the strongest of the Supreme Kai's.

Zamasu can be plenty stronger than South Supreme Kai and still fit with what I said.

That isn't how a retcon works. A retcon is something that is acknowledge in-universe or even out of universe like Beerus' power going up in Super compared to the movies.

There are plenty of retcons in media that are not mentioned. Some are and some aren't.

Yes I do believe in the anime Goku was initially made out to be stronger than Super Saiyan God because that's what was established in the movies and other media.

This preview mentions Goku reobtaining his Ultimate form and being the Gohan of old. If it shown that Base Goku is weaker than that and it might already have been in that recent filler episode then theyve retconned his power. And no I'm not gonna buy this being an Ultimate Gohan whose suddenly God level or tens of times stronger than God level, unless it stated otherwise it's the same Ultimate Gohan from before.

Like I said they and I hope they do, they could easily show Base Goku as being stronger than that but them portaging it in a way that it makes him look God level is something I severely doubt.

[apex_pretador]

Just a question: Is Hirudegān stronger than Base Goku/Vegeta from Super? If we go by powerscale he very well might be, considering his fight against Gotenks in comparison with Copy-Vegeta. Copy-Vegeta landed several blows to Gotenks and he was still standing while Hirudegān defused him with one fucking punch. Plus Goku SSJ was on a stalemate with a weaker SSJ Gohan while Hirudegān solo'd his "Ultimate" state... And it took Trunks to cut it's tail(which by the way is implied to be Hirudegān life/energy sucking-source)
and the ridiculously Over-Powered Dragon Fist to took the monster down(Dragon Fist also beat Super 17 while Son Goku was in his Base, San Xing Long and forced Yi Xing Long to regenerate)

Is this shit legit or am I thinking it too much?

He could very well be. I personally think that he is stronger than buuhan and Gohan is weakened in the movie, since he is weaker than gotenks in the movie.
Goku however is OP af in the movie.

But then again, base saiyans are supposed to be atleast as strong if not stronger than Beerus at BoG, where he finger-flicked someone stronger than SS3 gotenks. I think current base saiyans are above hirdy.

So where does Base Goku in Super stand in comparison to GT Base Goku?

Stronger than SS3 gotenks > anything in GT base goku did.

Oh hey, further confirmation that ultimate Gohan is stronger than Boo arc SS3 Goku. That's nice.

But not BoG SS3 goku.

See now this is interesting.

Additionally it states outright that Gohan had surpassed his father. So all of that about SSJ3 Goku being stronger or Kid Buu being the strongest Buu well this says otherwise.

Kid buu could still be stronger than super buu.
Gohan > Kid buu > Super buu > SS3 goku is still a possibility.

.

Wow you are quite literally tearing apart the "2-base" and "base = SSG" supporters' arguments.

So instead of beating down this tiresome topic where do you guys think Basil is sitting in power? In the preview he was able to deflect multiple ki blast from buu so he can't be that weak probably somewhere in the ssj2 tier bracket even tho he lose to buu next episode.

Equal to M vegeta, as he had the upper hand before Buu got serious.

[ekrolo2]

So where does Base Goku in Super stand in comparison to GT Base Goku?

Stronger than SS3 gotenks > anything in GT base goku did.

Kid Boo is the strongest Boo in the anime and GT Base Goku is apparently on par with him, doesn't that imply anything?

But not BoG SS3 goku.

I doubt BoG Goku is much stronger since Goku and Vegeta trained they're asses off for 7 years and are only somewhat stronger than CG Gohan when the Boo arc happens, I really doubt they've increased their power to any substantial degree to get past Gotenks and Gohan.

[apex_pretador]

So where does Base Goku in Super stand in comparison to GT Base Goku?

Stronger than SS3 gotenks > anything in GT base goku did.

Kid Boo is the strongest Boo in the anime and GT Base Goku is apparently on par with him, doesn't that imply anything?

But not BoG SS3 goku.

I doubt BoG Goku is much stronger since Goku and Vegeta trained they're asses off for 7 years and are only somewhat stronger than CG Gohan when the Boo arc happens, I really doubt they've increased their power to any substantial degree to get past Gotenks and Gohan.

1. What's the biggest feat of GT base goku? I remember him saying that the opponent he is facing "might" be stronger than buu to pan (which means he referred to mr buu) and proceeded to match him.
Then he is seen overpowering cell and freeza with ease, nothing CG gohan couldn't do, or even Mr buu couldn't do.

Also, one statement doesn't throw away everything else shown even in anime, which includes, but isn't limited to:
- Goku getting stomped by buutenks
- Buutenks saying he is strongest majin ever
- Buuhan needing vegetto to defeat, and SS3 goku being useless against him
etc

2. Vegeta jumped from a cell jr level to a level where he was able to dismiss the threat of facing a perfect cell level foe. Goku jumped even higher. They both go from being much weaker than cell to stronger than gohan.
Anyways, previous gains are irrelevant, because almost all statements point out to goku being stronger than gohan and gotenks by BoG. Plus he was not that much weaker in buu arc either. I have Gohan about 2.5x Goku in buu arc.

[ekrolo2]

1. What's the biggest feat of GT base goku? I remember him saying that the opponent he is facing "might" be stronger than buu to pan (which means he referred to mr buu) and proceeded to match him.
Then he is seen overpowering cell and freeza with ease, nothing CG gohan couldn't do, or even Mr buu couldn't do.

Also, one statement doesn't throw away everything else shown even in anime, which includes, but isn't limited to:
- Goku getting stomped by buutenks
- Buutenks saying he is strongest majin ever
- Buuhan needing vegetto to defeat, and SS3 goku being useless against him
etc

Saying he's referring to Mister Boo is hardly rock solid because Goku flat out calls Kid Boo "Majin Boo" too numerous times during their fight. He also says that Kid is the strongest Boo of them all, even Boohan and then he proceeds to match him with SS3. Considering the fact Kid is the strongest Boo that Goku's fought, and the strongest one overall of the anime, it only makes sense for him to refer to him in comparison to Rild.

2. Vegeta jumped from a cell jr level to a level where he was able to dismiss the threat of facing a perfect cell level foe. Goku jumped even higher. They both go from being much weaker than cell to stronger than gohan.
Anyways, previous gains are irrelevant, because almost all statements point out to goku being stronger than gohan and gotenks by BoG. Plus he was not that much weaker in buu arc either. I have Gohan about 2.5x Goku in buu arc.

Previous gains aren't irrelevant because they give you an idea for training growth. Goku and Vegeta worked their asses off for seven years and they're only sort of stronger than Cell Games Gohan was but not to any big degree. I also seriously doubt Gohan and Gotenks are only that much stronger than Goku if SS Gotenks, without ROSAT training, was supposed to be able to kill Fat Boo.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well the Pre Zenkai SSJ2 Black appeared to get stomped by SSJ2 Vegeta...

Wait, when did Black go SSJ2? Or any SSJ ther than Rosé?

Oh hey, further confirmation that ultimate Gohan is stronger than Boo arc SS3 Goku. That's nice.

Yep looks like like it's been finally confirmed mystic gohan>ssj3 goku.

I'm surprised there were people who thought otherwise. It's been an awful long time since I've watched Z...did Gohan fare that poorly?

That isn't how a retcon works. A retcon is something that is acknowledge in-universe or even out of universe like Beerus' power going up in Super compared to the movies. Otherwise, it's called an inconsistency.

"Retcon" means "retroactive continuity," and refers to "Previous story events get removed or rewritten."
Did Goku get a ase-form power-up in the movies? Yes. Was that a previous event in the story? Yes. Did it get removed or rewritten? Probably.
Let me give you another example. Superman has been vulnerable to magic for decades; if, starting tomorrow, all Superman stories had him immune to magic and no one commented on it, would that be a retcon? If not, what would it be?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Well the Pre Zenkai SSJ2 Black appeared to get stomped by SSJ2 Vegeta...

Wait, when did Black go SSJ2? Or any SSJ ther than Rosé?

In the manga.

[MyNiggaGoku]

Well the Pre Zenkai SSJ2 Black appeared to get stomped by SSJ2 Vegeta...

Wait, when did Black go SSJ2? Or any SSJ ther than Rosé?

In the manga.

I'm pretty sure he was a regular SS though..

[TheUltimateNinja]

Wait, when did Black go SSJ2? Or any SSJ ther than Rosé?

In the manga.

I'm pretty sure he was a regular SS though..

He had lightning.

[LowRyder2005]

Wow you are quite literally tearing apart the "2-base" and "base = SSG" supporters' arguments.

Is this supposed to be more like a boxing match or a women's catfight?

[MyNiggaGoku]

In the manga.

I'm pretty sure he was a regular SS though..

He had lightning.

Yeah I know but the hair style suggests otherwise.Not that it's so important,right now SS/SS2 are not the thing they used to be before,because God forms.

[Bullza]

Yeah I know but the hair style suggests otherwise.Not that it's so important,right now SS/SS2 are not the thing they used to be before,because God forms.

Yeah a few of us went through this before.

Checking through the entire manga Toyotaro had consistently drawn SSJ without lightning and SSJ2 with lighting without fail.

So I find it really odd that he'd change that now. It's not like Black had lightning in only a couple shots,he had it in every panel he was fighting.

At the same time though his hair wasn't quite as spiky as it should be so...