The SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3 relative increases according to Beerus & Whis (DBS ep.5)

[Saturnine]

According to 16, Cell was weaker than Vegeta when he first became Perfect, but he was still easily keeping up and later started outspeeding him when he was warming up.

Well, 16 clearly misjudged here. Cell was simply toying with Vegeta at first. He was never shown to power up in that battle, and his standby power was enough to crush Vegeta entirely.

16 himself acknowledged his error just a few panels later, mind you, when Cell told him he was just warming up.

Ergo, he was toying with Vegeta all along.

[TheUltimateNinja]

According to 16, Cell was weaker than Vegeta when he first became Perfect, but he was still easily keeping up and later started outspeeding him when he was warming up.

Well, 16 clearly misjudged here. Cell was simply toying with Vegeta at first. He was never shown to power up in that battle, and his standby power was enough to crush Vegeta entirely.

16 himself acknowledged his error just a few panels later, mind you, when Cell told him he was just warming up.

Ergo, he was toying with Vegeta all along.

He did increase his power, though, when Vegeta told him to stop toying with him. Before that it was somewhat even.

[Saturnine]

He did increase his power, though, when Vegeta told him to stop toying with him. Before that it was somewhat even.

He just started putting in effort. Do you think it's that hard to lower yourself to someone's level without decreasing your capabilities. Cell was just acting kind of like a father play-fighting with his son, trying not to hurt the kid by not taking things seriously. That was my impression of it at least, only Cell did this to humiliate Vegeta.

[Speedster]

Battle power may be exponential as well, but the kili scale has a much steeper curve. If one were to consider the kili scale, SSJ's multiplier would be far greater than 50x since it's 3.75x Goku's Base kili rating of 800, and Goku's Base kili rating is only 2.66x planet busting level.

Your whole argument about the Kiri scale being much steeper than the scouter's one is based around your estimated SSJ1 Goku’s destructive capability which must be larger than 10 planets (or equivalently 10xVegeta’s destructive capacity in the Saiyan arc). What you forget though, is that in the entire Cell arc none of the regular SSJs were said to be able to destroy anything bigger than Earth (if anything, unleashing power attacks that could destroy the Earth were treated as big deals). But that’s OK as there is a 10 million times increase headroom in destructive capacity requirements between barely destroying the Earth and completely annihilating it by converting it into subatomic particles moving at 10% the speed of light for example. Also Babidi referred to planets in general. There are different sized-planets in the universe, King Cold even referred to Earth as a tiny planet. So it is likely that your average planet would need 10x the Earth’s destructive energy requirement in order to be destroyed. Anyway the point is that even with linear scaling in the Kiri scale (i.e. 3000 meaning destoying 10x more than what you can with 300 which is a planet) a power level of 3000 kiri could still be interpreted as having 1 billion times larger destructive capacity than Vegeta in the Saiyan arc.

SSJ entails a 50x increase in battle power as stated in the guides, and this was also shown by the fact that Kaioken x20 Goku was barely a match for 50% Frieza whereas SSJ Goku was superior to 100% Frieza.

Right, the Kaiokenx20 argument! But one of the points of this thread is exactly to discuss whether the new canonical material (such as Beerus’ comment in Dragonball Super episode 5 and Zamasu’s reark in episode 53) supports this conclusion that was once derived from the Kaio-ken argument. Because aside from the KK argument there is nothing else to support that SSJ1=50xbase - quite the contrary there is a growing list of evidence that SSJ1 is treated as a much smaller power-up. Even Toriyama himself said that a 50-fold increase is an exaggeration and that while drawing the manga it felt more like a 10-fold increase instead.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... agon-ball/

So, it means that SS2's power rise is much greater than SS1, that is, it is atleast a 2x increase.
SS2 - SS1 > SS1 - Base
SS3 is a much bigger boost, so quite bigger than 2x.

Well more like (SSJ2-SSJ1) >>(SSJ1-base). So an order of magnitude I would say, something like (SSJ2-SSJ1)=11x(SSJ1-base) in which case you get SSJ2≈12*SSJ1. If you couple this with the constraint imposed in episode 53 that SSJ2 is ‘several tens of times the base’ and take it to mean 48x then the SSJ1 multiplier is 4xbase while SSJ2=12xSSJ1. No matter how you pay with it, even if you want to impose that ep53 meant SSJ2=100xbase as per SEG, then at best SSJ1=10*base and SSJ2=10*SSJ1.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Your whole argument about the Kiri scale being much steeper than the scouter's one is based around your estimated SSJ1 Goku’s destructive capability which must be larger than 10 planets (or equivalently 10xVegeta’s destructive capacity in the Saiyan arc). What you forget though, is that in the entire Cell arc none of the regular SSJs were said to be able to destroy anything bigger than Earth (if anything, unleashing power attacks that could destroy the Earth were treated as big deals). But that’s OK as there is a 10 million times increase headroom in destructive capacity requirements between barely destroying the Earth and completely annihilating it by converting it into subatomic particles moving at 10% the speed of light for example. Also Babidi referred to planets in general. There are different sized-planets in the universe, King Cold even referred to Earth as a tiny planet. So it is likely that your average planet would need 10x the Earth’s destructive energy requirement in order to be destroyed. Anyway the point is that even with linear scaling in the Kiri scale (i.e. 3000 meaning destoying 10x more than what you can with 300 which is a planet) a power level of 3000 kiri could still be interpreted as having 1 billion times larger destructive capacity than Vegeta in the Saiyan arc.

First Form Frieza effortlessly destroyed Vegeta which has 10x more gravitational force than Earth. This probably means it's well over 10x more massive since otherwise it would be ridiculously dense. Vegeta would definitely be among the harder planets to destroy.

Also, Cell was never stated to be able to do anything more than destroy the Earth either, but once he blew himself up and came back he returned with enough power to destroy the Solar System.

Right, the Kaiokenx20 argument! But one of the points of this thread is exactly to discuss whether the new canonical material (such as Beerus’ comment in Dragonball Super episode 5 and Zamasu’s reark in episode 53) supports this conclusion that was once derived from the Kaio-ken argument. Because aside from the KK argument there is nothing else to support that SSJ1=50xbase - quite the contrary there is a growing list of evidence that SSJ1 is treated as a much smaller power-up. Even Toriyama himself said that a 50-fold increase is an exaggeration and that while drawing the manga it felt more like a 10-fold increase instead.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... agon-ball/

That does not work mathematically, if that were the case SSJ would be no stronger than Oozaru and it would be weaker than the x20 he used against Frieza. And he said he felt a 10-fold change from what it was up until that point, so this could very well be applied to Goku while he was using the Kaioken and end up with a boost well over 50x.
Furthermore, 10x is still a lot more than the 3.75x boost exhibited in the kili scale.

And how about the scene where only half of SSJ Goku's power completely eclipses Grade 2 Vegeta's power? Going by the 3.75x multiplier, half would be 1.875x, so Grade 2 Vegeta would be around ~1.5x Goku and his regular SSJ would end up equal to Goku. So basically what you're saying is Base Goku Post RoSAT was as strong as SSJ Vegeta?
This would place him far above Frieza and contradict Beerus' statement that Base Goku can't beat Frieza.

[ekrolo2]

The shrinking SS theory stops working the second you factor in KK, unless you halfway it where it drops from 50 to at least 25, dropping SS to the 10s or even single digits makes it, and SS2, immediately shittier than simply boosting with KK.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The shrinking SS theory stops working the second you factor in KK, unless you halfway it where it drops from 50 to at least 25, dropping SS to the 10s or even single digits makes it, and SS2, immediately shittier than simply boosting with KK.

You could make the stamina argument, but stamina problems never stopped Goku from using the Kaioken when he needed it. Heck, he was relying on it even when it could kill him or at the very least leave him crippled.

Also, given the massive gaps presented in the series there's no way Base Goku ends up weaker than Frieza with multipliers much lower than 20-25x, his maximum possible power level in BoG would be ~100 million, so you'd need to have a pretty large SSJ multiplier to compensate.

[Speedster]

First Form Frieza effortlessly destroyed Vegeta which has 10x more gravitational force than Earth. This probably means it's well over 10x more massive since otherwise it would be ridiculously dense. Vegeta would definitely be among the harder planets to destroy.

As I said there is a 10million times headroom in the way you can destroy Earth (from 10^32J to 10^39J). What is more is that Freeza was never shown destroying Planet Vegeta in the original manga. We have no data of the form he used, the effort he made and the timings involved. Only inferences and assumptions plus the Bardock anime special. Please tell me if you want me to consider the anime on this matter as I will then happily bring into the discussion base Goku Vs Pikkon, base Gohan Vs Dabura and Rilldo’s statement in GT about SSJ Goku. Anyway, as far as the manga goes we know that 50% final form Freeza destroyed Planet Namek by firing a massive energy sphere with effort in chapter 320. And that took over 5 minutes to actually cause destruction.

Also, Cell was never stated to be able to do anything more than destroy the Earth either, but once he blew himself up and came back he returned with enough power to destroy the Solar System.

Actuallly this is all more proof that SSJ2 is a big multiplier of destructive capacity. Because similar to Cell when he transformed into his Super Perfect form, Gohan by going from SSJ1 to SSJ2, went from planetary annihilation level (10^39J) to Solar System level (10^43J).

That does not work mathematically, if that were the case SSJ would be no stronger than Oozaru and it would be weaker than the x20 he used against Frieza.

It works perfectly mathematically as long as you stop treating SSJ as a multiplier but instead as a boost appearing as a multiplier. For example Goku on Namek was 3 million in base and unlocked an SSJ boost equal to 147 million to reach 150 million as Super Saiyan. Then by training, Goku raised his base much more than he increased his SSJ boost so the apparent multiplier shrunk. Suppose for example Goku went on to become 80 million in base while he increased his SSJ boost from 147 million to 240 million. By adding a 240 million SSJ boost onto his 80million base he becomes 320 million, that is a power level 4 times his base. As for Oozaru, according to Toriyama, it wouldn't be biologically possible to retain their tails at such high base power levels.

Once you're as powerful as Vegeta and Goku, the tail just gets in the way. It is thought that the bodies of Saiyans, who are a fighting species, decided that their tails are unnecessary appendages.

And how about the scene where only half of SSJ Goku's power completely eclipses Grade 2 Vegeta's power? Going by the 3.75x multiplier, half would be 1.875x, so Grade 2 Vegeta would be around ~1.5x Goku and his regular SSJ would end up equal to Goku. This would place him far above Frieza and contradict Beerus' statement that Base Goku can't beat Frieza.So basically what you're saying is Base Goku Post RoSAT was as strong as SSJ Vegeta?

No. Also I woulnd't say that 3000 kiri was Goku's full power as FPSSJ1. It could well be around 60% of his maximum. I would give SSJ1 Goku an apparent multiplier of 6x at that stage.

Anyway here is how it works with all the given contraints including that base Saiyans are below Freeza (which I disagree with but I will let it slide for this particular post).

Freeza arc:
base Goku=0.2, SSJ Goku boost=9.8,
SSJ Goku=10, Apparent multiplier=50

Android arc, Pre RoSaT:
base Goku/Vegeta=1, SSJ Goku/Vegeta boost=10
SSJ Goku/Vegeta=11, Apparent multiplier=22

Cell arc, Post RoSat:
base Vegeta=3, SSJ Vegeta boost=11, SSJ grade 2 boost=17,
SSJ Vegeta=14, SSJ1 Vegeta's apparent multiplier=4.67
SSJ grade 2 Vegeta=20, SSJ1 grade 2 Vegeta's apparent multiplier=6.67

base Goku=4.5, FPSSJ1 Goku boost=37.5
FPSSJ1 Goku=42, FSSSJ1 Goku's apparent multiplier=9.33

Buu arc:
base Goku=7, FPSSJ1 Goku boost=38
FPSSJ1 Goku= 45, FPSSJ1 Goku apparent multiplier=6.42

In any case SSJ1's apparent multiplier is always kept below 10 after the RoSaT training.

In power levels:
base Goku (Freeza arc)=3 million
base Goku (Android arc)=15 million
base Goku (Cell arc - post RoSaT)=67.5 million
base Goku (Buu/BoGs arc)=105 million
Freeza (full power)=120 million
SSJ1 Goku (Freeza arc)=150 million
SSJ1 Goku (Android saga)=165 million
Imperfect Cell (first appearance)=176 million
#17/Kamiccolo=212 million
#16/Imperfect Cell=235 million
Semi Perfect Cell (full power)=260 million
SSJ1 grade 2 Vegeta=300 million
Suppressed Goku (post RoSaT Karin)=350 million
FPSSJ1 Goku (post RoSaT)=630 million
FPSSJ1 Goku (Buu/BoGs arc)=675 million

[TheUltimateNinja]

Freeza arc:
base Goku=0.2, SSJ Goku boost=9.8,
SSJ Goku=10, Apparent multiplier=50

Android arc, Pre RoSaT:
base Goku/Vegeta=1, SSJ Goku/Vegeta boost=10
SSJ Goku/Vegeta=11, Apparent multiplier=22

Cell arc, Post RoSat:
base Vegeta=3, SSJ Vegeta boost=11, SSJ grade 2 boost=17,
SSJ Vegeta=14, SSJ1 Vegeta's apparent multiplier=4.67
SSJ grade 2 Vegeta=20, SSJ1 grade 2 Vegeta's apparent multiplier=6.67

base Goku=4.5, FPSSJ1 Goku boost=37.5
FPSSJ1 Goku=42, FSSSJ1 Goku's apparent multiplier=9.33

Buu arc:
base Goku=7, FPSSJ1 Goku boost=38
FPSSJ1 Goku= 45, FPSSJ1 Goku apparent multiplier=6.42

In any case SSJ1's apparent multiplier is always kept below 10 after the RoSaT training.

In power levels:
base Goku (Freeza arc)=3 million
base Goku (Android arc)=15 million
base Goku (Cell arc - post RoSaT)=67.5 million
base Goku (Buu/BoGs arc)=105 million
Freeza (full power)=120 million
SSJ1 Goku (Freeza arc)=150 million
SSJ1 Goku (Android saga)=165 million
Imperfect Cell (first appearance)=176 million
#17/Kamiccolo=212 million
#16/Imperfect Cell=235 million
Regular SSJ1 Vegeta (post RoSaT)=240 million
Semi Perfect Cell (full power)=260 million
SSJ1 grade 2 Vegeta=300 million
Suppressed Goku (post RoSaT Karin)=350 million
FPSSJ1 Goku (post RoSaT)=630 million
FPSSJ1 Goku (Buu/BoGs arc)=675 million

These numbers are absurd. Imperfect Cell is only 10% stronger than Piccolo, yet he walks right through a Light Grenade without taking any damage? Semi Perfect Cell is only 10% stronger than 16, yet he tanks a punch to the face and oneshots him? In that case why did SSJ Goku have any difficulty whatsoever with his 25% advantage over Frieza? He should be like a God compared to him, he should have taken him down with a finger flick like Beerus did to him.

[Speedster]

These numbers are absurd. Imperfect Cell is only 10% stronger than Piccolo, yet he walks right through a Light Grenade without taking any damage? Semi Perfect Cell is only 10% stronger than 16, yet he tanks a punch to the face and oneshots him? In that case why did SSJ Goku have any difficulty whatsoever with his 25% advantage over Frieza? He should be like a God compared to him, he should have taken him down with a finger flick like Beerus did to him.

Do you have any familiarity with the exponential graph?
Here the x represents the power level. The y represents the actual strength/power. So for higher power levels, smaller relative increases would represent bigger leaps in actual power.

[TheUltimateNinja]

These numbers are absurd. Imperfect Cell is only 10% stronger than Piccolo, yet he walks right through a Light Grenade without taking any damage? Semi Perfect Cell is only 10% stronger than 16, yet he tanks a punch to the face and oneshots him? In that case why did SSJ Goku have any difficulty whatsoever with his 25% advantage over Frieza? He should be like a God compared to him, he should have taken him down with a finger flick like Beerus did to him.

Do you have any familiarity with the exponential graph?
Here the x represents the power level. The y represents the actual strength/power. So for higher power levels, smaller relative increases would represent bigger leaps in actual power.

That's not how it works, though.

Kuririn manages to kill nearly half a dozen Saibamen in a single attack with less than a 50% advantage over them, yet the Z fighters, especially Kuririn and Gohan, manage to last quite a while against Nappa who is more than twice as strong as most of them. Also, Nappa manages to knock Piccolo out with a single blow to the head and later kill him with one mouth beam, the Daizenshuu lists Piccolo's battle power as 3,500 and Nappa's battle power as 4,000, so Nappa achieved these with a 14% advantage per the Daizenshuu, yet Goku is unable to finish Vegeta off with Kaioken x3 and subsequently Kaioken x4 which give him advantages of 6,000/33% and 14,000/77% over Vegeta respectively.

Then Vegeta kills Cui effortlessly with a single attack with the same 6,000/33% gap, and later kills Dodoria with not much more effort with a less than 10% gap. Monster Zarbon then has to expend a lot more effort on beating Vegeta than Vegeta had to use on Dodoria despite his larger advantage, and in the end he doesn't even manage to kill him, then Vegeta kills Zarbon fairly easily once he gets a Zenkai with a much smaller gap in power.

It's the same in the Ginyu fight, Vegeta is able to land some hits and deal some damage to Recoome who has a 33-50% advantage over him and even survive several heavy blows whereas he very easily killed several people with much smaller gaps earlier, both in percentage and absolute numbers. Then Kaioken x10 Goku manages to last quite a while against 50% Frieza who has a 2x advantage over him and 70% Frieza manages to get a few good hits in on SSJ Goku despite the nearly 2x gap in power. Finally, 100% Frieza is able to put up a great fight against SSJ Goku despite the large gap in power and his rapidly draining stamina.

If smaller relative increases do indeed represent bigger leaps in actual power, then even <1% gaps should be huge once we hit the millions seeing how Vegeta dominates Dodoria, Zarbon and Monster Zarbon with less than a 10% advantage over each of them when he was only in the 24-30k range, yet later on Vegeta, Goku, Frieza, Ginyu, Gohan and Kuririn are able to last quite a while against opponents with much bigger gaps over them.

So your theory here has nothing to back it and is directly contradicted in the series, and is therefore nothing but headcanon.

[Speedster]

So your theory here has nothing to back it and is directly contradicted in the series, and is therefore nothing but headcanon.

The fact of the matter is that you are the one who actually makes up headcanons. You are the one who makes up rules about supposed required gaps in power levels in order to dismiss something in the first place. Also apparently you are getting a little bit too careless, so much actually that you didn't realise that with your post you managed to self-counter your very own previous complaint with my list.
[spoiler]

These numbers are absurd. Imperfect Cell is only 10% stronger than Piccolo, yet he walks right through a Light Grenade without taking any damage? Semi Perfect Cell is only 10% stronger than 16, yet he tanks a punch to the face and oneshots him? In that case why did SSJ Goku have any difficulty whatsoever with his 25% advantage over Frieza? He should be like a God compared to him, he should have taken him down with a finger flick like Beerus did to him.

[/spoiler]
Vs
[spoiler]

Kuririn manages to kill nearly half a dozen Saibamen in a single attack with less than a 50% advantage over them, yet the Z fighters, especially Kuririn and Gohan, manage to last quite a while against Nappa who is more than twice as strong as most of them. Also, Nappa manages to knock Piccolo out with a single blow to the head and later kill him with one mouth beam, the Daizenshuu lists Piccolo's battle power as 3,500 and Nappa's battle power as 4,000, so Nappa achieved these with a 14% advantage per the Daizenshuu, yet Goku is unable to finish Vegeta off with Kaioken x3 and subsequently Kaioken x4 which give him advantages of 6,000/33% and 14,000/77% over Vegeta respectively.
Then Vegeta kills Cui effortlessly with a single attack with the same 6,000/33% gap, and later kills Dodoria with not much more effort with a less than 10% gap. Monster Zarbon then has to expend a lot more effort on beating Vegeta than Vegeta had to use on Dodoria despite his larger advantage, and in the end he doesn't even manage to kill him, then Vegeta kills Zarbon fairly easily once he gets a Zenkai with a much smaller gap in power.
It's the same in the Ginyu fight, Vegeta is able to land some hits and deal some damage to Recoome who has a 33-50% advantage over him and even survive several heavy blows whereas he very easily killed several people with much smaller gaps earlier, both in percentage and absolute numbers. Then Kaioken x10 Goku manages to last quite a while against 50% Frieza who has a 2x advantage over him and 70% Frieza manages to get a few good hits in on SSJ Goku despite the nearly 2x gap in power. Finally, 100% Frieza is able to put up a great fight against SSJ Goku despite the large gap in power and his rapidly draining stamina.

[/spoiler]Basically you said: Using 10% gaps is ridiculous as 25% gaps were shown these times and were closer fights. Yet 10% power gaps were shown a number of times to be one-sided affairs. Also your entire argument in your second post suggests what really? That I should give up a perfectly logical explanation of diminishing power level gaps in favour of complete randomness in the choice? Because consistently choosing 25+% gaps for large gaps in strength would too contradict Toriyama's random pattern, wouldn't it? He clearly used small power level gaps to illustrate huge differences in power a number of times too.

If smaller relative increases do indeed represent bigger leaps in actual power, then even <1% gaps should be huge once we hit the millions.

If you want to get technical with the entire range you can well consider the governing function to be piecewise and resetting its exponentiality in a periodic way. Besides I wouldn't find it too much of an exaggeration to have 1% gaps being big deals once you hit the upper billion or trillion range. In episode 8 of DBS Beerus said that he used 10% of his power against mutated SSJ2 Vegeta yet Goku after a shitload of increases in power, SSJB, SSJB Kaiokenx10 (not to mention the fusion as Vegetto) is still well below Beerus’ power level.

[TheUltimateNinja]

So your theory here has nothing to back it and is directly contradicted in the series, and is therefore nothing but headcanon.

The fact of the matter is that you are the one who actually makes up headcanons. You are the one who makes up rules about supposed required gaps in power levels in order to dismiss something in the first place. Also apparently you are getting a little bit too careless, so much actually that you didn't realise that with your post you managed to self-counter your very own previous complaint with my list.
[spoiler]

These numbers are absurd. Imperfect Cell is only 10% stronger than Piccolo, yet he walks right through a Light Grenade without taking any damage? Semi Perfect Cell is only 10% stronger than 16, yet he tanks a punch to the face and oneshots him? In that case why did SSJ Goku have any difficulty whatsoever with his 25% advantage over Frieza? He should be like a God compared to him, he should have taken him down with a finger flick like Beerus did to him.

[/spoiler]
Vs
[spoiler]

Kuririn manages to kill nearly half a dozen Saibamen in a single attack with less than a 50% advantage over them, yet the Z fighters, especially Kuririn and Gohan, manage to last quite a while against Nappa who is more than twice as strong as most of them. Also, Nappa manages to knock Piccolo out with a single blow to the head and later kill him with one mouth beam, the Daizenshuu lists Piccolo's battle power as 3,500 and Nappa's battle power as 4,000, so Nappa achieved these with a 14% advantage per the Daizenshuu, yet Goku is unable to finish Vegeta off with Kaioken x3 and subsequently Kaioken x4 which give him advantages of 6,000/33% and 14,000/77% over Vegeta respectively.
Then Vegeta kills Cui effortlessly with a single attack with the same 6,000/33% gap, and later kills Dodoria with not much more effort with a less than 10% gap. Monster Zarbon then has to expend a lot more effort on beating Vegeta than Vegeta had to use on Dodoria despite his larger advantage, and in the end he doesn't even manage to kill him, then Vegeta kills Zarbon fairly easily once he gets a Zenkai with a much smaller gap in power.
It's the same in the Ginyu fight, Vegeta is able to land some hits and deal some damage to Recoome who has a 33-50% advantage over him and even survive several heavy blows whereas he very easily killed several people with much smaller gaps earlier, both in percentage and absolute numbers. Then Kaioken x10 Goku manages to last quite a while against 50% Frieza who has a 2x advantage over him and 70% Frieza manages to get a few good hits in on SSJ Goku despite the nearly 2x gap in power. Finally, 100% Frieza is able to put up a great fight against SSJ Goku despite the large gap in power and his rapidly draining stamina.

[/spoiler]Basically you said: Using 10% gaps is ridiculous as 25% gaps were shown these times and were closer fights. Yet 10% power gaps were shown a number of times to be one-sided affairs. Also your entire argument in your second post suggests what really? That I should give up a perfectly logical explanation of diminishing power level gaps in favour of complete randomness in the choice? Because consistently choosing 25+% gaps for large gaps in strength would too contradict Toriyama's random pattern, wouldn't it? He clearly used small power level gaps to illustrate huge differences in power a number of times too.

If smaller relative increases do indeed represent bigger leaps in actual power, then even <1% gaps should be huge once we hit the millions.

If you want to get technical with the entire range you can well consider the governing function to be piecewise and resetting its exponentiality in a periodic way. Besides I wouldn't find it too much of an exaggeration to have 1% gaps being big deals once you hit the upper billion or trillion range. In episode 8 of DBS Beerus said that he used 10% of his power against mutated SSJ2 Vegeta yet Goku after a shitload of increases in power, SSJB, SSJB Kaiokenx10 (not to mention the fusion as Vegetto) is still well below Beerus’ power level.

There's no contradiction, the 2 issues I pointed out were primarily based on tanking feats, which Vegeta did not display at all on Namek.

Vegeta never tanked any hits from Zarbon or Dodoria, in fact he even had to dodge Cui's attack whom he had a 33% advantage over, this shows that even if his offensive capability was much greater he couldn't afford to get hit carelessly. Goku had a 2x advantage over Nappa, yet he still deflects his blast rather than simply taking it and says he could be trouble if a blast like that were to hit head on. All of the occasions where Vegeta beat an opponent he did not have a considerable advantage over involved him making sure to avoid any heavy hits, his cautiousness suggests that his opponents can still damage him and he has to rely on his superior speed and skill to win.

No character has ever been shown to tank an attack with 0 damage point blank with a small gap. Even in DB back before battle powers were a thing, Karin stated that Goku became many times stronger from his training and this placed Goku considerably above Tao, though Tao was still strong enough to hurt him a bit. Of course in terms of battle power Goku's increase was like only 2.5-3x at most given his BoZ power level, this would place Tao far above his Pre-Karin self yet Tao still took clothing damage from Goku's Kamehameha. The closest thing is Piccolo Jr taking Goku's Super Kamehameha when they were about even, but even that did some superficial damage and drained some stamina.

Cell's Light Grenade tanking feat could be compared to Piccolo Daimao taking Goku's Kamehameha, though the Light Grenade would be a much more powerful attack. Piccolo claimed he was using less than half his power to thrash Goku, so this suggests a gap over 2x is necessary for tanking. However he may have just been bluffing, given Z Goku's battle power of 416 it's really improbable that he was over twice as strong as 22nd Budokai Goku. Ultimately it comes down to whether you're willing to ignore canon power levels in favor of statements and feats.

Anyway, the point is there's really nothing to indicate that the power level system is as complex as you're trying to make it out to be. It would mean Goku's Kaioken multipliers are not only much greater than the actual number he calls out, the difference between the true boost and the number he calls out actually becomes greater the higher his base power level gets.

[Speedster]

There's no contradiction, the 2 issues I pointed out were primarily based on tanking feats, which Vegeta did not display at all on Namek.Vegeta never tanked any hits from Zarbon or Dodoria, in fact he even had to dodge Cui's attack whom he had a 33% advantage over, this shows that even if his offensive capability was much greater he couldn't afford to get hit carelessly.No character has ever been shown to tank an attack with 0 damage point blank with a small gap.

OK so by your logic Goku and Gohan, who are shown dodging regular bullets, even if on guard, mustn’t be able to take bullets head on, so they mustn’t be massively above bullet-level in durability, right? You are also clearly forgetting things.
1. #17 (who was about on par with Piccolo) took head on no problem Piccolo’s entire hellzone grenade containing hundreds of shots despite previously shown dodging the individual shots.
2. #17 was able to outspeed Cell’s tail from pinching/hitting him. Had Cell been massively above him he would hit him no problem.
3. Imperfect Cell had to dodge and block punches from Piccolo instead of taking them head on.
4. When Piccolo shot his grenade to Imperfect Cell, he was already visibly weakened. Understandably so as he had already fought extensively and intensely against #17 and subsequently took a heavy beating from Imperfect Cell. Are you suggesting Piccolo was at full power when he was even shown to be injured while firing?
5. Imperfect Cell shot from close range a completely defenceless and beaten Piccolo with the intend to kill him. Still he failed to do so.

Anyway, the point is there's really nothing to indicate that the power level system is as complex as you're trying to make it out to be.

Not sure if you actually understood what I said before. It is actually a simple proposal. You can split the entire power level domain into smaller regimes governed by their own exponential function. Then within a given range, in the upper levels, you would need a smaller relative increase in order to achieve the same increase in actual power than you would need in the lower levels.

It would mean Goku's Kaioken multipliers are not only much greater than the actual number he calls out, the difference between the true boost and the number he calls out actually becomes greater the higher his base power level gets.

Why not? Actually this explains why Goku’s increases in his maximum attainable Kaioken multipliers were diminished despite his base getting much stronger. Goku with a power level of over 8K could do up to KKx4. Then he increased his base power level to 90K (i.e. an 11-fold increase in base) and he increased his max KK multiplier to 10 (i.e. a 2.5-fold relative increase in the maximum attainable KK multiplier). Had this followed a linear pattern, when he increased his base to 3M, i.e. a 33-fold further increase in base, his increase in the maximum KK multiplier would have to increase by 3 times more than it did with an 11-fold increase. So his max KK multiplier should had increased by 7.5x i.e. he should had been able to withstand KKx75. But instead he could only withstand KKx20 which is a mere 2x relative increase from his previous maximum.

[TheUltimateNinja]

There's no contradiction, the 2 issues I pointed out were primarily based on tanking feats, which Vegeta did not display at all on Namek.Vegeta never tanked any hits from Zarbon or Dodoria, in fact he even had to dodge Cui's attack whom he had a 33% advantage over, this shows that even if his offensive capability was much greater he couldn't afford to get hit carelessly.No character has ever been shown to tank an attack with 0 damage point blank with a small gap.

OK so by your logic Goku and Gohan, who are shown dodging regular bullets, even if on guard, mustn’t be able to take bullets head on, so they mustn’t be massively above bullet-level in durability, right? You are also clearly forgetting things.
1. #17 (who was about on par with Piccolo) took head on no problem Piccolo’s entire hellzone grenade containing hundreds of shots despite previously shown dodging the individual shots.
2. #17 was able to outspeed Cell’s tail from pinching/hitting him. Had Cell been massively above him he would hit him no problem.
3. Imperfect Cell had to dodge and block punches from Piccolo instead of taking them head on.
4. When Piccolo shot his grenade to Imperfect Cell, he was already visibly weakened. Understandably so as he had already fought extensively and intensely against #17 and subsequently took a heavy beating from Imperfect Cell. Are you suggesting Piccolo was at full power when he was even shown to be injured while firing?
5. Imperfect Cell shot from close range a completely defenceless and beaten Piccolo with the intend to kill him. Still he failed to do so.

Anyway, the point is there's really nothing to indicate that the power level system is as complex as you're trying to make it out to be.

Not sure if you actually understood what I said before. It is actually a simple proposal. You can split the entire power level domain into smaller regimes governed by their own exponential function. Then within a given range, in the upper levels, you would need a smaller relative increase in order to achieve the same increase in actual power than you would need in the lower levels.

It would mean Goku's Kaioken multipliers are not only much greater than the actual number he calls out, the difference between the true boost and the number he calls out actually becomes greater the higher his base power level gets.

Why not? Actually this explains why Goku’s increases in his maximum attainable Kaioken multipliers were diminished despite his base getting much stronger. Goku with a power level of over 8K could do up to KKx4. Then he increased his base power level to 90K (i.e. an 11-fold increase in base) and he increased his max KK multiplier to 10 (i.e. a 2.5-fold relative increase in the maximum attainable KK multiplier). Had this followed a linear pattern, when he increased his base to 3M, i.e. a 33-fold further increase in base, his increase in the maximum KK multiplier would have to increase by 3 times more than it did with an 11-fold increase. So his max KK multiplier should had increased by 7.5x i.e. he should had been able to withstand KKx75. But instead he could only withstand KKx20 which is a mere 2x relative increase from his previous maximum.

17 had to put up a barrier to take those shots. And Cell likely wasn't going all out from the start, at first Piccolo is able to kick him away from 17 and make him block some of his punches, but once Cell got serious they could no longer affect him in any way and he broke Piccolo's neck in one blow. #17 ran away from the Light Grenade Piccolo shot even though it wasn't aimed at him and there was some decent distance between him and Cell when Piccolo fired. 17 doesn't lose any energy, so the attack is a threat to a full power 17 even if he's not even in its line of fire. And the reason Piccolo survived was because Cell only shot through the left side of his torso, so his Namekian biology kept him alive for a while.

But the thing is there's no indication that the % you have to increase your power by to achieve clear domination ever changes. A ~10% advantage has always been enough for Vegeta to outclass his opponents since the Saiyan Arc, this includes Kaioken Goku who was over 16,000, he barely even gets hit when he has more power. The others have always needed more of a gap to achieve this.

And Future 17 was able to take Gohan out with less than half his power in their first encounter, Gohan should at least be comparable to Namek Goku by this point. Some time later he is able to spar with SSJ Kid Trunks in base and says he hoped his dad's gi would make him as strong as Goku was before he died, so he should be slightly below Yardrat Goku who is slightly superior to Mecha Frieza Arc Trunks, this fits since Trunks is told he can't face the androids since he hasn't surpassed Gohan yet. Trunks easily killed Mecha Frieza who felt he could defeat Namek Goku, so there must be a substantial gap between him and Namek Goku, ie a substantial gap between one armed Gohan and the Gohan who lost to 17 the first time. In their second encounter Gohan is ends up slightly above half of 17's power, but he still gets annihilated instantly once 17 gets serious. This shows that the Future androids are twice as strong as a trained SSJ, and the present androids are stronger still than that, so the Future androids must be 300 million+ in power and the present androids must be in the 350 million range.

Also, Toriyama said Goku would be a 6 to Beerus' 10 in the original BoG and he was able to keep up admirably with nearly 70% of Beerus' strength, a 16% gap. And in Super Goku multiplied his power 10-fold against Hit and Hit didn't instantly get wrecked. Also, during their rematch Goku says he's become even stronger than he was at the tournament and that the timeskip won't work on him anymore. And he is able to break Hit's abilities and keep up with his assassination techniques with only SSBlue whereas he was unable to do so earlier even with Kaioken x10 even though he was only dealing with the timeskip and no assassination techniques.

[Speedster]

17 had to put up a barrier to take those shots.

And? That's exactly the point of protective ki barriers! Or do you think characters tank attacks with their flesh non-ki protected/clad ? When Goku catches bullets, deflects a ki blast with his hands or blocks Trunks sword with his finger his is using his ki locally for protection. #17 had to do a sphere to protect from all sides as he was bombarded from all sides. Cell woulnd't need to do so as he was attacked locally.

#17 ran away from the Light Grenade Piccolo shot even though it wasn't aimed at him and there was some decent distance between him and Cell when Piccolo fired. 17 doesn't lose any energy, so the attack is a threat to a full power 17 even if he's not even in its line of fire.

Why would #17 act foolishly and take on Piccolo’s grenade head on? To show you that he can? He is wisely dodging it like he did before with Piccolo’s shots, shots that he later proved he could take on no problem all at once. What is more is that #17 can’t sense ki, power levels, etc to begin with. So he doesn't know how much ki attacks contain and therefore how lethal they are. Why risk it? Better dodge it. Also #17 having infinite stamina doesn't imply by any means that his power level cannot drop due to taking a beating, damage and injuries.

And the reason Piccolo survived was because Cell only shot through the left side of his torso, so his Namekian biology kept him alive for a while.

Strange then that his Namekian biology didn't keep him alive when he got hit by Nappa’s blast.

And Future 17 was able to take Gohan out with less than half his power in their first encounter, Gohan should at least be comparable to Namek Goku by this point.

Yeah, like old Piccolo Daimao used less than half of his power against kid Goku…
#17 can't sense ki whatsoever neither is he familiar with the scouter battle power scale anyway. So it makes far more sense for #17 to be referring to his actual power/strength than his scouter battle power.

But the thing is there's no indication that the % you have to increase your power by to achieve clear domination ever changes. A ~10% advantage has always been enough for Vegeta to outclass his opponents since the Saiyan Arc, this includes Kaioken Goku who was over 16,000, he barely even gets hit when he has more power.

No we have seen the % difference that is needed to dominate your opponent fluctuating all the time. Surely there are cases where 10% was not enough. But we also saw many cases where 10% was more than enough. Kami finger-flicked kid Goku like Beerus did to SSJ3 Goku. And kid Goku had a power level above 260, if you go by Daizenhsuu, and Kami himself had a power level less than 320. And there is also Popo in between who is also massively above kid Goku while at the same time being nothing compared to Kami. And KKx2 Goku Vs Vegeta is yet another example where a small power level gap (around 10%) is portrayed as a huge difference in actual power. So I don't understand your objection in me using 10% power level differences to represent similarly large gaps in actual power.

Also, Toriyama said Goku would be a 6 to Beerus' 10 in the original BoG and he was able to keep up admirably with nearly 70% of Beerus' strength, a 16% gap.

The 70% was dropped from Dragonball Super. But there was a 10% that Beerus used against SSJ2 Vegeta. Yet Goku as SSG(>>SSJ2 Vegeta), with intense training and shit for 4 years, SSJB(>SSJG), SSJB KKx10 and likely even as SSJB Vegetto, is still nowhere near Beerus’ 100% level. What is more is that in Toyotaro’s manga a 10fold increase spans the entire set of transformations from the SSJ1 level to SSJB level. Something that is perfectly aligned with an exponential power scaling, like the one I propose. Which is that in such higher levels, smaller percentage power level differences represent larger jumps in actual strength.

Anyway, I think this whole side-discussion is getting increasingly tiresome and increasingly off-topic. This thread is about Beerus’ comments in episode 5 in relation to the SSJ3, SSJ2 and SSJ1 power ups.

[TheUltimateNinja]

And the reason Piccolo survived was because Cell only shot through the left side of his torso, so his Namekian biology kept him alive for a while.

Strange then that his Namekian biology didn't keep him alive when he got hit by Nappa’s blast.

Because Nappa's blast covered his whole body whereas Cell only blew away a part of him since Cell fired a smaller blast at close range..

But the thing is there's no indication that the % you have to increase your power by to achieve clear domination ever changes. A ~10% advantage has always been enough for Vegeta to outclass his opponents since the Saiyan Arc, this includes Kaioken Goku who was over 16,000, he barely even gets hit when he has more power.

No we have seen the % difference that is needed to dominate your opponent fluctuating all the time. Surely there are cases where 10% was not enough. But we also saw many cases where 10% was more than enough. Kami finger-flicked kid Goku like Beerus did to SSJ3 Goku. And kid Goku had a power level above 260, if you go by Daizenhsuu, and Kami himself had a power level less than 320. And there is also Popo in between who is also massively above kid Goku while at the same time being nothing compared to Kami. And KKx2 Goku Vs Vegeta is yet another example where a small power level gap (around 10%) is portrayed as a huge difference in actual power. So I don't understand your objection in me using 10% power level differences to represent similarly large gaps in actual power.

It wasn't depicted as a huge gap, just enough of a gap that Goku didn't stand much of a chance. He was still able to get some hits in and dodge some attacks. Also, the gap between SSJ Goku and Frieza was much bigger, yet it was a much closer fight. As was the gap between Ginyu and Goku, and later Ginyu-Goku and Vegeta.

Also, Toriyama said Goku would be a 6 to Beerus' 10 in the original BoG and he was able to keep up admirably with nearly 70% of Beerus' strength, a 16% gap.

The 70% was dropped from Dragonball Super. But there was a 10% that Beerus used against SSJ2 Vegeta. Yet Goku as SSG(>>SSJ2 Vegeta), with intense training and shit for 4 years, SSJB(>SSJG), SSJB KKx10 and likely even as SSJB Vegetto, is still nowhere near Beerus’ 100% level. What is more is that in Toyotaro’s manga a 10fold increase spans the entire set of transformations from the SSJ1 level to SSJB level. Something that is perfectly aligned with an exponential power scaling, like the one I propose. Which is that in such higher levels, smaller percentage power level differences represent larger jumps in actual strength.

This is contradicted by the fact that in Toyo's manga SSJ2 Trunks is able to put up a fight against SSRose Black who is far above SSBlue Vegeta, showing that this small power gap stuff holds no water since Black should be several times stronger and therefore invincible, yet Trunks still manages to hold him off and also hurt him a bit.

Anyway, I think this whole side-discussion is getting increasingly tiresome and increasingly off-topic. This thread is about Beerus’ comments in episode 5 in relation to the SSJ3, SSJ2 and SSJ1 power ups.

This discussion is fully related to Beerus' statement. SSJ2 is stated to be several tens/dozens of times stronger than base. This means it can't be much higher than 100x since otherwise Zamasu would have said Goku became over 100x stronger. For SSJ2 to have an impressively higher multiplier over SSJ than SSJ over base, SSJ would have to be less than an 8x multiplier, and fitting BoG SSJ Goku at less than 800 million is very difficult.

There's more issues. When Cell powered up to his maximum, he is able to budge SSJ2 Gohan with his first punch and draw blood, Gohan then either dodges or blocks his subsequent attacks, and when he blocks his body shifts quite a bit. He is also able to withstand several heavy blows from Gohan. And it's implied that his Kamehameha would be able to damage Gohan and thus Gohan has to repel it with a Kamehameha of his own.

If Gohan's SSJ2's multiplier is "several tens of times" stronger than his base and also a bigger boost over his SSJ than his SSJ is over his base - which you say is 9.33x - then it must at the very least be 100x.

You have 16 at over 90% of Semi Perfect Cell, Semi Perfect Cell took a punch straight to the face without even flinching and then wrecked him instantly without even trying as a test of his new power. You have Piccolo over 90% of Imperfect Cell as well, and Cell walked straight through his strongest attack without taking any damage and then casually broke his neck with one shot.

When Gohan took a punch to the face from Cell, he budged and bled. When Cell fired his strongest Kamehameha at Gohan, Gohan repelled it with his own rather than taking it head on. When Gohan hit Cell with multiple hard shots, Cell was still able to get back up and continue fighting. If we follow your theory of relative increases getting smaller over time, Cell has to be over ~95% of Gohan at least.

If this is the case, why did he consider Goku a worthy opponent when he doesn't even measure up to a tenth of his power? Why did he treat his Super Perfect state like a huge deal when it apparently only made him ~5% stronger?

Furthermore, there's Dabura. Both SSJ Goku and Pre-Majin Vegeta are implied to be able to beat him.

Kaioshin says the only way to return Piccolo and co. back to normal is to kill Dabura, and Goku says that's simple enough to do. And Vegeta says Dabura isn't all that and if they just watch out for his spit they can handle him and Goku says that Dabura is about as strong as Cell so maybe a long time ago he would have been frightening, showing Cell isn't a big deal anymore.

The reason this shows that SSJ Goku and Vegeta > Cell is because this doesn't tip either of them off that the other can use SSJ2. When Goku uses SSJ2 against Yakon, Vegeta thinks "So Kakarot can surpass Super Saiyan as well..." Showing that he thinks SSJ Goku is enough to beat Dabura who was compared to Cell earlier.

And later on Goku says Dabura's even stronger than he thought when he sees his ability to use magic, yet Vegeta is still confident that he can beat Dabura and this also doesn't suggest to Goku that he can use SSJ2 as well since he's still surprised when Vegeta unveils it against him when he goes Majin, so SSJ Vegeta > Dabura.

This creates a 3 tier gap between SSJ Goku and Cell since he's stronger than Pre-Majin SSJ Vegeta who is stronger than Dabura's true power who is stronger than the Dabura Goku compared to Cell, or SSJ Goku > SSJ Vegeta > Dabura > Dabura (Estimate) = Perfect Cell, and this Perfect Cell is already less than 5% away from SSJ2 Kid Gohan.

If the gap between SSJ2 and SSJ is so large, this means that both Goku and Vegeta are over 10x stronger than Teen Gohan, yet he's still treated as if he's in the same league.

This creates a problem both in the manga continuity where Gohan uses SSJ and in the Anime/Super continuity where he uses SSJ2.

As I mentioned above, the fact that SSJ Goku and Vegeta can beat an opponent that SSJ2 Gohan is having trouble with suggests they'd be vastly more powerful than him which contradicts him being considered not that far off from them. In fact, given that you've reduced their SSJ multipliers even further, they'd be stronger than his SSJ in base.

In the manga, SSJ Gohan should be slaughtered by someone as strong as Cell considering as of right now he doesn't measure up to even a tenth of his power, granted Dabura says he was merely toying with Gohan and could defeat trash like him at any point, but he was clearly putting some effort in.

There's also the fact that SSJ2 Gohan's power fills up half of Fat Buu's meter, thus Buu is twice as strong as SSJ2 Gohan at least. Majin Vegeta is able to put up a bit of a fight against him and not die immediately like he should under your model against an opponent at least 50% stronger than him. And Fat Buu is able to take several hits from SSJ3 Goku and also lands some hits on him. Of course, Goku was clearly holding back and dominated the whole time, but if SSJ3's boost over SSJ2 is over 10x, then Buu shouldn't measure up to even a fifth of Goku's power, so the fight should have been even worse than Ultimate Gohan vs Super Buu.

And when Buu absorbs Gotenks, Gohan still doesn't instantly get decimated whereas Gohan should have been completely overwhelmed since Buu doubled his power and therefore gained a significant advantage over him, under your model of smaller relative gains meaning bigger increases over time even a 2% gap should allow Buu to utterly destroy Gohan by this point, yet Gohan is able to survive several hits and blasts and even break out of his donuts.

And how about the fact that Cabba and Vegeta get the same boost from SSJ? Cabba being a fresh SSJ should get the full 50x boost, or at the very list a much greater boost than Vegeta.

Thus things fit much better if SSJ2 is 2x stronger than SSJ which is a constant 50x multiplier and the gaps necessary for domination never change.

And in the anime, Base Black is able to tank all of Vegeta's punches and blow him away with a single kick, yet when he goes SSRose the gap doesn't change all that much and Vegeta is able to block a punch from him and almost put up a fight before he gets stabbed. And SSBlue Goku is able to perform about the same if not a bit better against SSRose Black than SSBlue Vegeta against Base Black. Since you seem to think a <1% gap should be enough to create a huge gap in power at this point, this would suggest SSRose is less than a 1.01x multiplier.

And again, there's the issue of Goku's Kaioken not making as much of a difference as it should under your model. If the Kaioken's power boost gets larger as Goku's own power gets higher, his x10 Kaioken at the tournament should be infinitely greater than the x10 Kaioken he used against Frieza, yet Hit notes that his power only became 10x stronger when he used it.

[Pantalones]

You're assuming Beerus is talking in terms of multipliers. Using Namek levels for example...

Base: 3,000,000
SSj: 150,000,000
SSj2: 300,000,000
SSj3: 1,200,000,000

...If you look at the raw numbers and not the percentage difference between them, SSj2 is a bigger boost than SSj -- it adds an entire Super Saiyan's worth of power on top of what the Super Saiyan already has. It's not that much more impressive than SSj, but getting the same boost again (in terms of the amount added to the power, not some multiplier) would only come up to 297,000,000... so it is a bit more of a boost. And of course the final result is a lot more than regular Super Saiyan, literally twice as strong, and a hundred times as strong as Goku's base form -- going from "can't even beat Freeza" to "can crush people who could effortlessly defeat Freeza." That's probably what Beerus was talking about more than anything.

And then SSj3 is a massively huge boost, adding nearly a billion onto the SSj2 power even at its absolute minimum possible level. By Buu Saga levels Goku's SSj3 might take him into the double-digit billions depending on exactly how high his base form is.

[Desassina]

How about using what I have always suggested: ranging multipliers and power increases?

Base - [1, 50] - from 1 to any other number that their power spikes up to.
SSJ1 - [50, 100] - double the amount of their base SSJ multiplier is full power.
SSJ2 - [100, 400] - four times the amount of a base SSJ2 multiplier is much higher.
SSJ3 - [400, 6'400] - sixteen times their base SSJ3 multiplier is even higher than before.

It's all a matter of perspective and some work arounds to what we have that don't contradict it. Goku could have started at base 40, doubled his power into 80, increased it into 320, and then 5'120. Take any pick out of a huge range with a few thresholds.

[TheUltimateNinja]

You're assuming Beerus is talking in terms of multipliers. Using Namek levels for example...

Base: 3,000,000
SSj: 150,000,000
SSj2: 300,000,000
SSj3: 1,200,000,000

...If you look at the raw numbers and not the percentage difference between them, SSj2 is a bigger boost than SSj -- it adds an entire Super Saiyan's worth of power on top of what the Super Saiyan already has. It's not that much more impressive than SSj, but getting the same boost again (in terms of the amount added to the power, not some multiplier) would only come up to 297,000,000... so it is a bit more of a boost. And of course the final result is a lot more than regular Super Saiyan, literally twice as strong, and a hundred times as strong as Goku's base form -- going from "can't even beat Freeza" to "can crush people who could effortlessly defeat Freeza." That's probably what Beerus was talking about more than anything.

And then SSj3 is a massively huge boost, adding nearly a billion onto the SSj2 power even at its absolute minimum possible level. By Buu Saga levels Goku's SSj3 might take him into the double-digit billions depending on exactly how high his base form is.

This is most likely correct.