Justifying Goku Character is Pointless!

[HyugaProdigy]

Sorry but it's true, if Goku in the manga wasn't anymore stupider and was acting smart especially from what happening recently in Goku Black arc, then trying to Justify Goku character in the anime is Futile and pointless. It's none other than Toei ruining Goku characters because Toyotaro actually understands his character.

I once made a thread why the manga did better than the anime and I still stand by what I said in regards to Goku Black arc . INB4 anyone claiming that "he's always been this way". No he doesn't he was persistent at times who loves to fight but he was NEVER this LOW where he put the whole universe to danger despite seeing how many times Beerus warned him, or after WITNESSes Zeno destruction in the future timeline.

In DBZ he would only get stronger to protect his friends, He got character development during the cell saga when Piccolo was infuriating to Goku with how he treated Gohan his own son as a weapon to beat cell. Goku felt remorse about his action, so he intend to sacrifice himself for the lives of billion people on the planet. Then Goku said that he intend to remain dead because he realized how much problem he cause the world if he were to stick around.
The point in DBZ is that he was able to adept and learned his mistake back in the cell saga, furthermore Goku was able to PROGRESSED as a character showing his maturity throughout Buu saga despite having some foolish side.
DBS tosses out to the window, instead they made Goku portrayed as a Man Child showing no comprehensive toward the situation nor showing any formality or cautious toward the god especially after knowing Zeno true color of destructing the universe and how he treated Zeno goodie good friend.

[Gafonso6]

And you created a topic for this because?

[Lujin_16]

The problem is we had only Black/Zamasu as villains and Goku in Z never had the time to joke or show how dumb he is that's why many think he is different
but it's not

[Baggie_Saiyan]

The problem is we had only Black/Zamasu as villains and Goku in Z never had the time to joke or show how dumb he is that's why many think he is different
but it's not

Black arc forgot Senzu's. Everyone loses their minds. Buu arc forgot his sons when the Earth blew up.... Nobody says a thing

[Simere]

The problem is we had only Black/Zamasu as villains and Goku in Z never had the time to joke or show how dumb he is that's why many think he is different
but it's not

Black arc forgot Senzu's. Everyone loses their minds. Buu arc forgot his sons when the Earth blew up.... Nobody says a thing

He didn't forget.

[DBZ Macky]

He didn't forget.

Isn't that like, even worse?

[mabalia]

Food for thought, this is how Goku reacted after being warned by Whis about the risk of telling to Grand Priest and Zeno about FTrunks situation in chapter 18 of the manga.

Whis: More importantly, if the King of All hears about that from the Grand Priest, he may very well erase the problem planet along with the entire universe that contained it...
Goku: Ggeeh!! I get it, I'll keep it quiet.

I'm here for smarter Goku.

But I presume that in the manga Goku will make Zeno remember of the tournament too, but I hope we get to see Goku acting more serious and smart the same way Toyotaro writes him to be

[Saturnine]

Hate to state the obvious, nor does it add anything to the discussion, but...

the butthurt is real.

[Simere]

He didn't forget.

Isn't that like, even worse?

Not to my mind. What he did is only "stupid" if you remove all context and compassion out of the situation while looking at it in hindsight; even then not approaching the same level of stupidity as simply forgetting.

[Totamo]

Sorry but it's true, if Goku in the manga wasn't anymore stupider and was acting smart especially from what happening recently in Goku Black arc, then trying to Justify Goku character in the anime is Futile and pointless. It's none other than Toei ruining Goku characters because Toyotaro actually understands his character.

I once made a thread why the manga did better than the anime and I still stand by what I said in regards to Goku Black arc . INB4 anyone claiming that "he's always been this way". No he doesn't he was persistent at times who loves to fight but he was NEVER this LOW where he put the whole universe to danger despite seeing how many times Beerus warned him, or after WITNESSes Zeno destruction in the future timeline.
l. Goku
In DBZ he would only get stronger to protect his friends, He got character development during the cell saga when Piccolo was infuriating to Goku with how he 2. treated Gohan his own son as a weapon to beat celfelt remorse about his action, so he intend to sacrifice himself for the lives of billion people on the planet. Then Goku said that he intend to remain dead because he realized how much problem he cause the world if he were to stick around.
The point in DBZ is that he was able to adept and learned his mistake back in the cell saga, furthermore Goku was able to PROGRESSED as a character showing his maturity throughout Buu saga despite having some foolish side.
DBS tosses out to the window, instead they made Goku portrayed as a Man Child showing no comprehensive toward the situation nor showing any formality or cautious toward the god especially after knowing Zeno true color of destructing the universe and how he treated Zeno goodie good friend.

This is where your argument falls apart.

1. Goku only ever got stronger for himself or to fight strong opponents.

2. which is why he did it again twice in buu arc with the kids and gohan, so i know about that development thing pal.

3. But the cell saga started, because goku was dead. Thats why trunks timeline sucks so bad. Goku was dead and the androids still tormented evryone.

4. he and vegeta plays, rock paper and scissors to see who fights buu first.

[ChronoTwigger]

Sorry but it's true, if Goku in the manga wasn't anymore stupider and was acting smart especially from what happening recently in Goku Black arc, then trying to Justify Goku character in the anime is Futile and pointless. It's none other than Toei ruining Goku characters because Toyotaro actually understands his character.

I once made a thread why the manga did better than the anime and I still stand by what I said in regards to Goku Black arc . INB4 anyone claiming that "he's always been this way". No he doesn't he was persistent at times who loves to fight but he was NEVER this LOW where he put the whole universe to danger despite seeing how many times Beerus warned him, or after WITNESSes Zeno destruction in the future timeline.

In DBZ he would only get stronger to protect his friends, He got character development during the cell saga when Piccolo was infuriating to Goku with how he treated Gohan his own son as a weapon to beat cell. Goku felt remorse about his action, so he intend to sacrifice himself for the lives of billion people on the planet. Then Goku said that he intend to remain dead because he realized how much problem he cause the world if he were to stick around.
The point in DBZ is that he was able to adept and learned his mistake back in the cell saga, furthermore Goku was able to PROGRESSED as a character showing his maturity throughout Buu saga despite having some foolish side.
DBS tosses out to the window, instead they made Goku portrayed as a Man Child showing no comprehensive toward the situation nor showing any formality or cautious toward the god especially after knowing Zeno true color of destructing the universe and how he treated Zeno goodie good friend.

Reply to this PLEASE: are you aware that Goku is not a real thing and is a narrative device?

Please answer to this.

[SansrivaaL]

Here we go again.... guys... can we stop this
Goku is in character with what he's done, tbh he's done way worst before compared to now.

[TheMikado]

Here we go again.... guys... can we stop this
Goku is in character with what he's done, tbh he's done way worst before compared to now.

Do you really think it's a coincidence that so many threads are popping up about this?

As I said before, trying to justify this to a western audience by saying Goku was always like this and was incorrectly translated in dubs is only going make them retroactively hate the character and dislike be franchise. But oh well, it will be nice that Dragonball finally gets to shed that international market that's been holding the franchise back for so long now.. /s

[Kishido]

Goku... He is the hope of the universe... But only universe 7.

They should redo this part of the Namek saga

[kinisking]

Here we go again.... guys... can we stop this
Goku is in character with what he's done, tbh he's done way worst before compared to now.

Do you really think it's a coincidence that so many threads are popping up about this?

As I said before, trying to justify this to a western audience by saying Goku was always like this and was incorrectly translated in dubs is only going make them retroactively hate the character and dislike be franchise. But oh well, it will be nice that Dragonball finally gets to shed that international market that's been holding the franchise back for so long now.. /s

Yes, because an entire market is suddenly going to stop watching Dragonball because some people are complaining.

I guarantee the casuals, which are the majority, won't even notice.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Here we go again.... guys... can we stop this
Goku is in character with what he's done, tbh he's done way worst before compared to now.

It is because most people still have nostalgia affecting them, for example people complain that SSGSS is a "lazy recolour" yet don't sit and think about SS1/2/3, or the amount of people that say Super's animation sucks despite not Super only rivalling it but even surpassing Z's animation a few times. It is just the same here some people will gladly defend all of Goku's previous actions with XY&Z yet refuse to acknowledge when someone counters an argument to Super Goku.

Breaking this entire situation down once and for all:

.Zen-Oh promises a multi-verse tournament to the most fight hungry person in the world.
.Beerus and Whis warn Goku not to approach Zen-Oh cuz he might do something off. All of this was if buts and maybes. Remember Zen-Oh called Goku to play.
.Goku says he saw Zen-Oh power at full force- People use this argument don't look at the fact that Zen-Oh only did that because the future universe was complete shit and Zamasu did his weird takeover the universe thing.
.The big one- Not one time when he went and met Zen-Oh did he or they ever mention the erasing thing, Goku simply asked for something that was promised to be fulfilled it is not even like Goku just thought of asking for a multi-verse tournament on the spot.
.Goku says will take responsibility for U7 when he doesn't need to.
.Goku's first response was to ask Zen-Oh to forgot the erase thing.
.Goku said he would think of something when shit hits the fan.

Nothing here is Out of Character nothing, nothing here is "Flanderisation" . Toriyama said it himself, Goku is not a good guy but does good things as a result.

[Avok]

Here we go again.... guys... can we stop this
Goku is in character with what he's done, tbh he's done way worst before compared to now.

It is because most people still have nostalgia affecting them, for example people complain that SSGSS is a "lazy recolour" yet don't sit and think about SS1/2/3, or the amount of people that say Super's animation sucks despite not Super only rivalling it but even surpassing Z's animation a few times. It is just the same here some people will gladly defend all of Goku's previous actions with XY&Z yet refuse to acknowledge when someone counters an argument to Super Goku.

Breaking this entire situation down once and for all:

.Zen-Oh promises a multi-verse tournament to the most fight hungry person in the world.
.Beerus and Whis warn Goku not to approach Zen-Oh cuz he might do something off. All of this was if buts and maybes. Remember Zen-Oh called Goku to play.
.Goku says he saw Zen-Oh power at full force- People use this argument don't look at the fact that Zen-Oh only did that because the future universe was complete shit and Zamasu did his weird takeover the universe thing.
.The big one- Not one time when he went and met Zen-Oh did he or they ever mention the erasing thing, Goku simply asked for something that was promised to be fulfilled it is not even like Goku just thought of asking for a multi-verse tournament on the spot.
.Goku says will take responsibility for U7 when he doesn't need to.
.Goku's first response was to ask Zen-Oh to forgot the erase thing.
.Goku said he would think of something when shit hits the fan.

Nothing here is Out of Character nothing, nothing here is "Flanderisation" . Toriyama said it himself, Goku is not a good guy but does good things as a result.

So you're saying that all of the issues that people have with the characterisation of Goku is product of nostalgia and that there's nothing wrong with him at all?

[Boo Machine]

So you're saying that all of the issues that people have with the characterisation of Goku is product of nostalgia and that there's nothing wrong with him at all?

I think its more like people are making mountains out of mole hills based on what they believe the character should be like from when they watched them as a child.

Most people understand that Goku isn't being handled in the best way in Super and acknowledge that traits like his Obliviousness are being played up too much at times. But nostalgia is making some people believe that he has never been stupid or selfish in the past, choosing to hand wave it away with head canon or out right ignore it when brought up.

[Lord Beerus]

So you're saying that all of the issues that people have with the characterisation of Goku is product of nostalgia and that there's nothing wrong with him at all?

I think its more like people are making mountains out of mole hills based on what they believe the character should be like from when they watched them as a child.

Most people understand that Goku isn't being handled in the best way in Super and acknowledge that traits like his Obliviousness are being played up too much at times. But nostalgia is making some people believe that he has never been stupid or selfish in the past, choosing to hand wave it away with head canon or out right ignore it when brought up.

You summed it up perfectly.

I've actually been fine with Super's characterisation for the most part, but the writing team have fumbled on a few occasions with the execution. The range of Goku's selfishness and naivety in the original series is handled well for the most. In Super, it's fine, but can get bit too exaggerated and just outright mishandled. That being said, I don't agree that Goku has acted outright stupid in Super. Him forgetting stuff like the senzu and and seal for the Mafuba jar... it's just a case of, well, forgetting things in a race against time. I mean, are we really gonna start labelling people stupid if they forget important things? It's like locking you keys inside your car or leaving a bag of groceries on the bus or forgetting important documents you're meant to take to school or work at home the same day. Shit like that just happens. It's a common lapse in concentration that occurs to everyone at one stage of their life, even if they're not in a rush. It's happened to me, you and everyone on this forum at one point in their live. That shouldn't mean you're stupid. Again, forgetting something important does not qualify as a display of lacking of intelligence or being stupid. I really can't stress this enough. Because if we're going by that logic, we're all fucking idiots. There's only one time where he arguably crosses the line for naivety to outright foolishness and that was when he couldn't tell that was Beerus wearing a Monaka suit in EP42. But in that circumstance, it was 100% played for laughs and pure filler. Goku has acted far more foolishly than that in several other scenarios. And in those scenarios, the stakes were far higher.

[HyugaProdigy]

And you created a topic for this because?

Because some people defend his character and can't accept the truth

The problem is we had only Black/Zamasu as villains and Goku in Z never had the time to joke or show how dumb he is that's why many think he is different
but it's not

He is different because in Z he could've act like a childish but instead he takes a different approach mainly because of his maturity. In DBS he was acting like a ManChild because he wasn't serious when it needed to be, That's a big difference.

Black arc forgot Senzu's. Everyone loses their minds. Buu arc forgot his sons when the Earth blew up.... Nobody says a thing

In the manga, Goku brought the senzu bean with him unlike the anime. Anyway Goku didn't forget to bring his son, he saw him as well as the others lying on the floor, but instead he choose to bring hercule instead.

Isn't that like, even worse?

Well it was selfish but he had little choice simply because he wasn't fast enough to react a situation at hand, too many things happening when the blast from Buu was about to blow out the earth. And if that's bad then the same can be said to Vegeta, atleast goku was rational to save others. So it's much more reasonable in DBZ than how Toei tries to portray Goku in DBS.

1. Goku only ever got stronger for himself or to fight strong opponents.

2. which is why he did it again twice in buu arc with the kids and gohan, so i know about that development thing pal.

3. But the cell saga started, because goku was dead. Thats why trunks timeline sucks so bad. Goku was dead and the androids still tormented evryone.

4. he and vegeta plays, rock paper and scissors to see who fights buu first.

1. Goku was obsessed to get stronger mainly because the enemies who is more powerful got Goku triggered.
2. Except it's much more acceptable, Goku can't do much in his position especially with the whole time limit.
3. And yet Goku started this whole mess with the red ribbon army which led Dr.Gero to start developing stronger androids to the point where he reached final stage which is Cell. But then again Goku atleast was being much more rational to save humanity so In the end, it doesn't matter, Trunk managed to beat Android 17/18 which prevented Cell to get stronger whereas in DBS, Goku was complete selfish and put the whole universe to danger mainly because he was bored and his obsession of fighting.
4.They are selfish indeed but that's because Kid Buu was a less threat than his other form.

Reply to this PLEASE: are you aware that Goku is not a real thing and is a narrative device?

Please answer to this.

Goku doesn't follow the premise of his character like in DBZ so of course he's not "real" he was acted as a narrative device only to start the universe survival arc, that is poor ass excuse for a shittier writing when Toei could've executed differently. They don't have to make Goku go through all that of a trouble when Toei could've done different apporach like make Zeno starts the tournament without forgetting something.