Things that grind your gears

[Doctor.]

Still, take away his Saiyan genetics and he isn't overcoming jack or shit. Half the reason he and Vegeta even live long enough to survive in Freeza's general vicinity is because of Zenkai which have nothing to do with hard work or training.

I wouldn't say that. He wouldn't get as strong in the same amount of time, I agree with that, but give him the same martial arts masters and he'll eventually get to the same level purely due to his work ethic, not to mention he has power-ups he can abuse (such as the two potential releases).

[ekrolo2]

Still, take away his Saiyan genetics and he isn't overcoming jack or shit. Half the reason he and Vegeta even live long enough to survive in Freeza's general vicinity is because of Zenkai which have nothing to do with hard work or training.

I wouldn't say that. He wouldn't get as strong in the same amount of time, I agree with that, but give him the same martial arts masters and he'll eventually get to the same level purely due to his work ethic, not to mention he has power-ups he can abuse (such as the two potential releases).

For part one maybe but I really doubt Goku would ever reach the power of his Base strength against Freeza if you took away his Saiyan genetics. Certainly not SS tier and beyond levels of strength unless he meets Whis way earlier on and trains under him for a decade or two.

[Doctor.]

Still, take away his Saiyan genetics and he isn't overcoming jack or shit. Half the reason he and Vegeta even live long enough to survive in Freeza's general vicinity is because of Zenkai which have nothing to do with hard work or training.

I wouldn't say that. He wouldn't get as strong in the same amount of time, I agree with that, but give him the same martial arts masters and he'll eventually get to the same level purely due to his work ethic, not to mention he has power-ups he can abuse (such as the two potential releases).

For part one maybe but I really doubt Goku would ever reach the power of his Base strength against Freeza if you took away his Saiyan genetics. Certainly not SS tier and beyond levels of strength unless he meets Whis way earlier on and trains under him for a decade or two.

He could improve on the Kaioken to make up for the lack of SS transformations.

[ekrolo2]

I wouldn't say that. He wouldn't get as strong in the same amount of time, I agree with that, but give him the same martial arts masters and he'll eventually get to the same level purely due to his work ethic, not to mention he has power-ups he can abuse (such as the two potential releases).

For part one maybe but I really doubt Goku would ever reach the power of his Base strength against Freeza if you took away his Saiyan genetics. Certainly not SS tier and beyond levels of strength unless he meets Whis way earlier on and trains under him for a decade or two.

He could improve on the Kaioken to make up for the lack of SS transformations.

Which is assuming Freeza doesn't kill him on Namek, something I can't see being avoided if you just made him a human with no near death boosts to help him or Super Saiyan.

[Doctor.]

For part one maybe but I really doubt Goku would ever reach the power of his Base strength against Freeza if you took away his Saiyan genetics. Certainly not SS tier and beyond levels of strength unless he meets Whis way earlier on and trains under him for a decade or two.

He could improve on the Kaioken to make up for the lack of SS transformations.

Which is assuming Freeza doesn't kill him on Namek, something I can't see being avoided if you just made him a human with no near death boosts to help him or Super Saiyan.

Yeah, he'd die, but I already said he wouldn't get as strong in the same amount of time. I'm saying, take away the life-or-death situations and put him in an alternate universe where he survives every encounter and can train for as long as he wants and he can potentially reach the same strength level due to his incredible work ethic, just not as fast.

[RehBeh]

About the Shonen-bad writing stuff: I can't say anything on the "good overcomes evil" Shonen trope because the only one i've read is Dragon Ball. However I want to believe that I can say a word or two about writing: The thing with the F. Trunks Arc is the constant power-ups Trunks received without any hint, foreshadowing or form of explanation, one after another. At least in Dragon Ball things like that were given somewhat of an explanation(Zenkais for example). If your writing a story and give the hero a ton of boosts, out of the blue just to win the adversary, not a good thing to do. I don't have any problem with Trunks being the hero, but don't pull stuff out from your arses to make him stronger. In the Freeza Arc Super Saiyan was hinted and foreshadowed until Goku finally unlocked it. Super Saiyan Fury? Nothing. That Genki Sword? Nothing. That's not good writing, even by Dragon Ball standards.

[Cetra]

About the Shonen-bad writing stuff: I can't say anything on the "good overcomes evil" Shonen trope because the only one i've read is Dragon Ball. However I want to believe that I can say a word or two about writing: The thing with the F. Trunks Arc is the constant power-ups Trunks received without any hint, foreshadowing or form of explanation, one after another. At least in Dragon Ball things like that were given somewhat of an explanation(Zenkais for example). If your writing a story and give the hero a ton of boosts, out of the blue just to win the adversary, not a good thing to do. I don't have any problem with Trunks being the hero, but don't pull stuff out from your arses to make him stronger. In the Freeza Arc Super Saiyan was hinted and foreshadowed until Goku finally unlocked it. Super Saiyan Fury? Nothing. That Genki Sword? Nothing. That's not good writing, even by Dragon Ball standards.

Trunks' power boosts for coming from being a very strong Saiyajin that is angry and knows that he fights for what he thinks of as worth being done as well as being protected have a reason. Exactly that. Just not more. And for something as shallow as Dragon Ball I think it can be glad to at least have the shonen-stuff. And the Sword of Hope is exactly the same. They all are there for him and show Zamasu that the mentality that he inherited from his fusion components is something that should be fought against. The one single evil thing that is so incredibly powerful in all stories, even more powerful than the heroes, will ultimately lose. The reason is just "Good things in the end are stronger when it is important" in such types of stories. Dragon Ball is not less of a fairytale than other stories.

[RehBeh]

Trunks' power boosts for coming from being a very strong Saiyajin that is angry and knows that he fights for what he thinks of as worth being done as well as being protected have a reason. Exactly that. Just not more. And for something as shallow as Dragon Ball I think it can be glad to at least have the shonen-stuff.

I get your reasoning, at least you use arguments that make sense and your responses are well thought. But Trunks power ups came from nowhere. Compare them with Gohan's, who from his first appearance was hidden to be "rage boosted" until finally he became a SSJ2 , you knew that Gohan was possessing a hidden power. In Trunks case it feels shallow. From a writing perspective they're uncomparable.

[TekTheNinja]

No. This is entirely false dude. NO. At the beginning this may have been true, but nowadays this is simply WRONG. Seriously, Chris Sabat has even said that if anything ever happened to him he'd want Lani to voice Vegeta. They are pretty much professionals at this point, and most of the characters don't even have "silly voices". Most are interpretations of different dub voices.

And yet, I am not dissuaded from this at all. Some of the voices are somewhat better imitations of the FUNi cast, but they are still silly voices. So no, it's not entirely false. I've heard the voices for Kuririn, Gohan, and Goku and they are SOOOOO bad because they are clearly a couple of dudes making silly imitation voices. I've heard Vegeta on TFS and it's a bad Sabat imitation, I don't care what Sabat says. He's probably the guy that signed off on Josh Martin voicing Buu. These aren't interpretations of dub voices, they are silly imitations. That's okay if it's a parody. Fans of TFS grind my gears because they never seem to see the show for what it is. They don't seem to see it as just an amateur parody.

I mean I'm not even criticizing your opinion here. I'm saying you're factually wrong. Like actually objectively wrong.

[Cetra]

Trunks' power boosts for coming from being a very strong Saiyajin that is angry and knows that he fights for what he thinks of as worth being done as well as being protected have a reason. Exactly that. Just not more. And for something as shallow as Dragon Ball I think it can be glad to at least have the shonen-stuff.

I get your reasoning, at least you use arguments that make sense and your responses are well thought. But Trunks power ups came from nowhere. Compare them with Gohan's, who from his first appearance was hidden to be "rage boosted" until finally he became a SSJ2 , you knew that Gohan was possessing a hidden power. In Trunks case it feels shallow. From a writing perspective they're uncomparable.

How are Trunks' boosts shallow/the dimensions he can reach not believable? He is the son of Vegeta, the super-elite Saiyajin prince who is pretty much as strong as Goku. He is a guy who gets really really pissed because he lost everything even though he tries his best to defend all and then some random god with Goku's face actually tries to mock him. I think Gohan's power is severely over-hyped and Trunks can be at least as great potential-wise. There is barely any difference between that saga and others if people are honest.

[RehBeh]

How are Trunks' boosts shallow/the dimensions he can reach not believable? He is the son of Vegeta, the super-elite Saiyajin prince who is pretty much as strong as Goku. He is a guy who gets really really pissed because he lost everything even though he tries his best to defend all and then some random god with Goku's face actually tries to mock him. I think Gohan's power is severely over-hyped and Trunks can be at least as great potential-wise. There is barely any difference between that saga and others if people are honest.

No, no I didn't mean that. Maybe my phrasing was off.
What I meant was that it came out of nowhere without explanation, not that he can't reach them. The power is there just for the sake of being there. There's no explanation provided to justify those power ups. Even in his appearance in the original manga he wasn't getting power from rage, how did he managed it in Super? A answer would be nice to such questions(for me at least)

[Cetra]

How are Trunks' boosts shallow/the dimensions he can reach not believable? He is the son of Vegeta, the super-elite Saiyajin prince who is pretty much as strong as Goku. He is a guy who gets really really pissed because he lost everything even though he tries his best to defend all and then some random god with Goku's face actually tries to mock him. I think Gohan's power is severely over-hyped and Trunks can be at least as great potential-wise. There is barely any difference between that saga and others if people are honest.

No, no I didn't mean that. Maybe my phrasing was off.
What I meant was that it came out of nowhere without explanation, not that he can't reach them. The power is there just for the sake of being there. There's no explanation provided to justify those power ups. Even in his appearance in the original manga he wasn't getting power from rage, how did he managed it in Super? A answer would be nice to such questions(for me at least)

I know what you mean I just wanted to cover that in case that was also one of your issues with it. Still I see no problem with the reasons I posted in the first posts to be the explanation at the same time. Goku was a strong guy who trained and it was not enough. Then something happened and it was a catalyst for his next boost. Vegeta was a strong guy who trained and it was not enough then something happened and it was a catalyst for his next boost. Et cetera. Same formula when simplified. I see that it is hard for you to swallow that but - and that is not meant personally - then you might have never actually looked at the basic construct of all those other boosts because the basic construct is also like that.

[RehBeh]

I know what you mean I just wanted to cover that in case that was also one of your issues with it. Still I see no problem with the reasons I posted in the first posts to be the explanation at the same time. Goku was a strong guy who trained and it was not enough. Then something happened and it was a catalyst for his next boost. Vegeta was a strong guy who trained and it was not enough then something happened and it was a catalyst for his next boost. Et cetera. Same formula when simplified. I see that it is hard for you to swallow that but - and that is not meant personally - then you might have never actually looked at the basic construct of all those other boosts because the basic construct is also like that.

Why would you bother to cover something I didn't even implied that bothers me? Anyway, on the other characters boosts/power ups, when it happens it's justified. (Zenkais, The Room of Spirit and Time, Unlocked Potential, Fusions ect.) With Trunks it's not, that's the "issue".

[Cetra]

I know what you mean I just wanted to cover that in case that was also one of your issues with it. Still I see no problem with the reasons I posted in the first posts to be the explanation at the same time. Goku was a strong guy who trained and it was not enough. Then something happened and it was a catalyst for his next boost. Vegeta was a strong guy who trained and it was not enough then something happened and it was a catalyst for his next boost. Et cetera. Same formula when simplified. I see that it is hard for you to swallow that but - and that is not meant personally - then you might have never actually looked at the basic construct of all those other boosts because the basic construct is also like that.

Why would you bother to cover something I didn't even implied that bothers me? Anyway, on the other characters boosts/power ups, when it happens it's justified. (Zenkais, The Room of Spirit and Time, Unlocked Potential, Fusions ect.) With Trunks it's not, that's the "issue".

1. To get sure you might also be aware of that point.
2. Totally missing the point. The really important powerups/power gatherings/final attacks that were way more powerful than everything that has been seen before all come after a power up that you mentioned - those which were not enough - and then were there because of shonen cliche which leads back to what I explained. And yes, they were there. You are really ignoring things here so I think we should part ways at this point. Just wanting a Zenkai or Room of Spirit and Time session et cetera from a guy that already had all of this, plus is a strong Saiyajin prodigy anyway, plus the fact that those things never were what mattered in the end because they always turned out to be the losers until some sudden additional trigger managed to make them even stronger, for the sake of having in in this saga so you cannot say what you are saying, is really nitpicky. Trunks is just as believable or for what it is worth, unbelievable as the rest. It all falls under the same pattern.

So I guess this should be ended here.

If that's just how shonen is, then shonen is mediocre (it usually it). It's still not justification.

Not only is "mediocre" a personal rating of yours, "justification" also falls under rating something and then showing how it was "allowed" or "reasonable to do that". There is no need for Dragon Ball to justify this as it is nothing generally bad but only something some rebellious teenagers dislike. There are plenty of people who like the thoughts behind this.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

People trying to justify bad writing with "thats just how shonen is"

It has nothing to do with "trying". It is how shonen is.

If that's just how shonen is, then shonen is mediocre (it usually it). It's still not justification.

[ekrolo2]

People trying to justify bad writing with "thats just how shonen is"

It has nothing to do with "trying". It is how shonen is.

If that's just how shonen is, then shonen is mediocre (it usually it). It's still not justification.

Besides Fullmetal Alchemist I can't recall any new ones that weren't suffocating under standard mcdefault shonen tropes.

[ABED]

I mean I'm not even criticizing your opinion here. I'm saying you're factually wrong. Like actually objectively wrong.

Show me a video to prove that I'm objectively wrong.

[ABED]

I do think you are grossly exaggerating the arguments. Sure, Saiyans do have a genetic advantage, but Goku and Vegeta put the work in. They seek out masters, they push themselves, find creative ways to train. It's like steroids, you can't just take them and expect muscle growth. You have to put in work.

I never said Goku and Vegeta don't train for it, but to ignore like their genetics aren't a massive part in that equation is a blatant lie. Especially when you get into stuff like Zenkai which is just healing after grievous injury and powering up from it to varying degrees because of Saiyan biology, not because of any hard work or training. Goku's body gets wrecked while Ginyu is in it and he jumps from 90k to at least 3 million just by healing, there's no hard work there: its all genetic advantages.

Plus, it also reeks of the old "this character blows because he's not like this other character I like!" Superman's shtick isn't about self-improvement and his personality is nothing like Goku's and yet people treat him as inferior to Goku by judging him on Goku's standards that don't apply to him. That's like me saying Krillin sucks because his parents weren't gunned down in an alley.

But you keep creating this strawman as though people don't acknowledge his genes play a big part. However, if that was enough, then any Saiyan could be in Goku's shoes. It's not, clearly there's something special about Goku. Goku wouldn't have been able to do anything against Ginyu, much less be worth having his body stolen had he not put in the work. It's not ALL genetic advantages. You say people miss the genetics argument, but your point is just as bad because you miss that he did put in the effort. And your Kuririn/Batman argument is both hard to follow and misses the point.

[ekrolo2]

But you keep creating this strawman as though people don't acknowledge his genes play a big part. However, if that was enough, then any Saiyan could be in Goku's shoes. It's not, clearly there's something special about Goku. Goku wouldn't have been able to do anything against Ginyu, much less be worth having his body stolen had he not put in the work. It's not ALL genetic advantages. You say people miss the genetics argument, but your point is just as bad because you miss that he did put in the effort. And your Kuririn/Batman argument is both hard to follow and misses the point.

Like I said, I acknowledge the fact that Goku's hard work is a great factor in his strength, the series has proven that time and again, the thing is, when arguing him vs Superman, everyone likes to sum Superman up as "just genetics" which is true but when you try and explain that Goku's power even partially relies on his own win over a genetic lottery, shit gets flipped at you daring to bring it up.

Even though this is the same fanbase that loves to use "He's a Saiyan!" as the be all, end all explanation for anything Goku does or is, except when you want to bring attention to it in an argument pitting him against Superman.

[ABED]

With Superman it IS just genetics. He can't make himself more or less powerful by training. Goku has a genetic advantage over humans, but he puts in a tremendous amount of effort.