Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[apex_pretador]

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for responding. From what I get reading your opinions it seems that a popular opinion is that there has been some kind of retcon or something like that. I would like to present my own opinion on "base" level of goku/vegeta/gohan, the position of Buu and Goku Black.

From what evidence we have, there is nothing that implies that mr buu is weaker than Original far buu. Infact, the performance he put up against Kid buu who was slightly stronger than SS3 goku (who could've handily bested fat buu) shows he is on the same level.
Next, I would like to compare his fight against basil and vegeta.

• Both of them initially overwhelm buu
• Buu eventually beats them both
• After getting serious,
• calling them pretty strong
• Steams come out of his head

Now, Base Basil is definitely weaker than M vegeta, because buu manhandled him before getting angry. However, he is stronger than Dabra, who goku thought wasn't impressive "now". IMO he should be somewhere around SPC or adult SS2 gohan.
Powered-up Basil faced buu who got mad, and had steams come out of his head. Just like M vegeta, he blew up a hole through him, knocked him down, and had buu get up sometime later. He should be equal to M vegeta.
Post drug Basil did nothing special, he kicked around boo a lot, and got defeated by Kamehameha. He is still nowhere near SS3 goku, but slightly stronger, strong enough to give a good fight to buu. He lost because of limited stamina.

Now, next up is gohan.
Since it makes sense to have the weakest character go first , who's also stated to be the youngest brother, it means that Lavender should be stronger than Basil, by a good deal. I'd say about 3-10x stronger. That would put him in the range of near SS3 goku to super buu.The next episode would make it clear how much difficulties gohan has fighting him in base. I'd say he would turn out to be stronger, about 2x gohan. If so, it would mean Gohan's base is buu to SS3 goku level. If not, then I'd not speculate further and let the next ep air.

The other evidence on Gohan we have is:

• Goku fighting him somewhat evenly. Goku might be a bit suppressed, but not a lot.
• In RoF, he is stronger in base than SS kid trunks/goten. When they de-fuse, they go to hide, but Gohan stands there to fight.
• In U6 arc, he is capable of fighting a powered-up piccolo in base, who was supposed to be well above kid trunks according to vegeta.
• A terrible filler arc
• Krillin implied that Gohan and Buu can hold off first form freeza in RoF. This implies that RoF first form freeza is around SS3 (buu arc) level, and Gohan is around the same tier as buu as a super saiyan.

So, combining all we got, I can conclude that Gohan's base before this tourney / goku-saiyaman fight was decently above Namek goku, but decently below mr Buu.

Now, let's take on goku/vegeta.

First of all, we must remember that in BoG, he was able to hang on with the power of SSG for a brief moment, and that's it. Next onwards, whether or not is he able to draw upon that power as a Super Saiyan if needed in desperate situations and how, is unknown.

In RoF, he is supposed to be vastly powered-up. However, the extent of his power is unknown. We do know that he is definitely above SS3 from buu arc, because even first form freeza was around that level (above analysis).
However, freeza implies that he could handle super saiyan goku without transforming. So, it means that SSB is much greater than 50x boost.

In U6 tournament, he called everyone pretty strong, including botamo. However, since he has called Dabra non-threat in a much weaker incarnation, it means even botamo is above Dabra. That puts First form frost decently above Dabra, arguably in the same range as fat buu. Final form frost should be super buu level or higher based on that. This puts base goku in buu arc range.

In the following filler arc we see base vegeta manhandling SS3 gotenks, and goku matching him in base. This puts him close to vegetto in base. This is further solidified when he fights a suppressed beerus somewhat evenly. It is worth noting that this goku is stronger than U6 arc goku who is stronger than RoF goku.

Then we see that SS3 goku and Base black are about the same level. Maybe base black is stronger by a bit. However, when Black goes Super Saiyan (rose), he overpowers Super Saiyan blue, but not with ridiculous ease.
That means SSB is around 50x SS3.

Next we see goku having a hard time with gohan, presumably when he was suppressed.

[dbgtFO]

However, freeza implies that he could handle super saiyan goku without transforming. So, it means that SSB is much greater than 50x boost.

Freeza would think Goku's base power also encompasses Kaio kenx20, as Goku didn't tell him about the technique or anything, so using your logic he wouldn't need much more than a 2x boostt.

[apex_pretador]

However, freeza implies that he could handle super saiyan goku without transforming. So, it means that SSB is much greater than 50x boost.

Freeza would think Goku's base power also encompasses Kaio kenx20, as Goku didn't tell him about the technique or anything, so using your logic he wouldn't need much more than a 2x boostt.

Why would he think so? Goku was glowing red when he used kaioken, and he wasn't glowing red when he wasn't using kaioken.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Wait a minute, I just realized that Base Black = SSJ3 Goku is bullshit. When he came to the present Goku was able to keep up with him just fine using only SSJ2 and Trunks said he was only a little stronger in the future, showing that he's only slightly above SSJ2 Goku and thus much weaker than SSJ3 Goku.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If Goku isn't either Androids-Imperfect Cell level or God level in base I will shoot myself.

Goku can't be God level in his base form though. Especially if we're working under the assumption that SSJ Goku = SSJ Gohan.

Even though Gohan lost Ultimate, he was still much stronger than he was before he got the power-up, since in FnF base Gohan was stronger than Piccolo, and Gohan started training with Piccolo after that. And we've seen that base Goku is stronger than SS3 Gotenks, while SS Goku has surpassed SSG's level. So, Gohan simply reached that level through training in his base, like Vegeta did, and can use Super Saiyan on top of that. Even Piccolo has come close to base Goku & Vegeta since the U6 arc, or he wouldn't be able to fight Frost like he did.

Wait a minute, I just realized that Base Black = SSJ3 Goku is bullshit. When he came to the present Goku was able to keep up with him just fine using only SSJ2 and Trunks said he was only a little stronger in the future, showing that he's only slightly above SSJ2 Goku and thus much weaker than SSJ3 Goku.

Trunks was probably talking about how strong Black was in their last fight when he said that Black was a little stronger than that, while he was talking about Black's full power when he was comparing him to SS3 Goku. Basically:

Black (full power)
SS3 Goku
Black (vs SS2 Trunks)
SS2 Goku = Black (vs SS2 Goku)

[TheUltimateNinja]

Wait a minute, I just realized that Base Black = SSJ3 Goku is bullshit. When he came to the present Goku was able to keep up with him just fine using only SSJ2 and Trunks said he was only a little stronger in the future, showing that he's only slightly above SSJ2 Goku and thus much weaker than SSJ3 Goku.

Trunks was probably talking about how strong Black was in their last fight when he said that Black was a little stronger than that, while he was talking about Black's full power when he was comparing him to SS3 Goku. Basically:

Black (full power)
SS3 Goku
Black (vs SS2 Trunks)
SS2 Goku = Black (vs SS2 Goku)

That wouldn't make much sense, though. They wanted an idea of how strong Black was to know how they'd fare against him, why would Trunks talk about his suppressed level instead of his full power? And Vegeta says if his power is only a little higher than that, they can easily win and Trunks doesn't contradict him.

[LowRyder2005]

@apex: Yeah, I myself have read about this, well, novel argument about some people now taking issue with Buu being inferior to the original Fat Buu... and, as usual, I can't understand the fanbase.

To me it seems like a part of it has a subconscious desire to make everyone drastically stronger than necessary (it more or less happened with Gohan being equal to his Ultimate self in ROF, it happened with Piccolo being God tier when everything suggested he was inferior to Mr. Buu, etc.) and with justifications that I personally found to be more than a notch up in the roundabout scale, usually. Anyway, if one had to judge from his feats, Mr. Buu didn't really do anything in particular that put him above the level he was when he was born (supposedly, in-between SS2 Vegeta and SS3 Goku, but on the lower end of the scale) in this last episode. Nothing like him outperforming anyone we did not think he could outperform before, no statements from the character or narrative indication.
Furthermore, every guide I can think of always treats Mr. Buu like the same post-fission Buu, who had less than half of his former power. In short, Fat Buu shouldn't be stronger than Kid Buu and Good Buu can't be equal to Fat Buu according to basically everything that's been shown so far (character material, statements, feats). Again, no idea: I mean, it's not like Super can't indulge in retcons if it wants to, but we should at least wait for something (feats, statements) properly retconning things.

Regarding Gohan, I don't know if his base was stronger than Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks. He seemed stronger than Piccolo - which can be more or less justified in various ways, TOEI writing included (we still have Base Goku outperforming Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta as the worst offender and I don't think anyone talks about strange gaps because of that feat), but I think that the message in ROF is clear about Gohan being way lower in power than what we remembered. I stress that Trunks' statements look pretty no-nonsense to me: he sensed base Gohan after the Cell Game and he finds Gohan's ki to be less impressive than before (and this was after the latter had trained with Piccolo). Goten and Trunks were already established to be weaker than Piccolo, though, Super Saiyan or not.

[apex_pretador]

[spoiler]@apex: Yeah, I myself have read about this, well, novel argument about some people now taking issue with Buu being inferior to the original Fat Buu... and, as usual, I can't understand the fanbase.

To me it seems like a part of it has a subconscious desire to make everyone drastically stronger than necessary (it more or less happened with Gohan being equal to his Ultimate self in ROF, it happened with Piccolo being God tier when everything suggested he was inferior to Mr. Buu, etc.) and with justifications that I personally found to be more than a notch up in the roundabout scale, usually. Anyway, if one had to judge from his feats, Mr. Buu didn't really do anything in particular that put him above the level he was when he was born (in-between SS2 Vegeta and SS3 Goku, but on the lower end of the scale) in this last episode. Nothing like him outperforming anyone we did not think he could outperform before, no statements from the character or narrative indication.
Furthermore, every guide I can think of always treats Mr. Buu like the same post-fission Buu, who had less than half of his former power. In short, Fat Buu shouldn't be stronger than Kid Buu and Good Buu can't be equal to Fat Buu according to basically everything that's been shown so far (character material, statements, feats). Again, no idea: I mean, it's not like Super can't indulge in retcons if it wants to, but we should at least wait for something (feats, statements) properly retconning things.

Regarding Gohan, I don't know if his base was stronger than Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks. He seemed stronger than Piccolo - which can be more or less justified in various ways, TOEI writing included (we still have Base Goku outperforming Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta as the worst offender and I don't think anyone talks about strange gaps because of that feat), but I think that the message in ROF is clear about Gohan being way lower in power than what we remembered. I stress that Trunks' statements look pretty no-nonsense to me: he sensed base Gohan after the Cell Game and he finds Gohan's ki to be less impressive than before (and this was after the latter had trained with Piccolo). Goten and Trunks were already established to be weaker than Piccolo, though, Super Saiyan or not.[/spoiler]

To be honest piccolo being SSG tier is a ridiculous opinion and despite being a huge fan of piccolo (probably my favourite DB character) I never believed he was "god tier" (and what's god tier btw?) assuming it means SSG tier from BoG or above.
While it is true I used to believe for some time that base goku from RoF might be SSG level, I clearly ditched that bad theory which was formed due to non-clear representations of power levels.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with your point about buu. Who said buu got stronger than before? The problem is that there is no indication that buu is weaker than fat buu especially when he did amazing in his fight against kid buu (a being stronger than goku). So, IMO, fat buu = mr buu
As I already stated, Basil is solidly below SS3 goku from buu arc.

Trunks said something like gohan's ki is less intense, not that he was weaker (when he is suppressed to his daily level where mr satan can "play" with him)

If Piccolo is above kid trunks, and gohan is capable of fighting him toe to toe, then it means that base gohan is above kid trunks.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Is Goku 10x stronger than he was at the tournament? Considering the insane power inflation that happened in the Black arc alone it's not too difficult for me to buy, but it's still pretty absurd growth in only a single year.

[Bullza]

I have him being at least six times stronger based on Goku's Kaioken overpowering Merged Zamasu.

[TheGreatSaiyaman]

So where do people think Gohan is in Base and SSJ? Personally I place his base around his SSJ2 Adult and SS on par with his Ultimate state, which would still be alright, considering he's not above SSG Goku in BoG, but is still vastly stronger than the rest of the cast apart from Goku, Vegeta and Buu, who would still be weaker by a small amount considering he doesn't train and plays with Mr Satan all day.

[HeroR]

Wait a minute, I just realized that Base Black = SSJ3 Goku is bullshit. When he came to the present Goku was able to keep up with him just fine using only SSJ2 and Trunks said he was only a little stronger in the future, showing that he's only slightly above SSJ2 Goku and thus much weaker than SSJ3 Goku.

Black was purposely holding back. Goku even got on Black for not revealing his true power and Black confirmed this, saying he will take his time.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Wait a minute, I just realized that Base Black = SSJ3 Goku is bullshit. When he came to the present Goku was able to keep up with him just fine using only SSJ2 and Trunks said he was only a little stronger in the future, showing that he's only slightly above SSJ2 Goku and thus much weaker than SSJ3 Goku.

Black was purposely holding back. Goku even got on Black for not revealing his true power and Black confirmed this, saying he will take his time.

That's irrelevant, when they asked Trunks he said Black's true power is only a little higher than the power he showed against Goku.

[HeroR]

That's irrelevant, when they asked Trunks he said Black's true power is only a little higher than the power he showed against Goku.

He said he was stronger in the future, which he was. The show said several times that Black was holding back and Trunks said that Black was as strong or stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Since the exact same writer wrote that episode and the Goku vs. Black fight, I doubt he would forget what he wrote.

[TheUltimateNinja]

That's irrelevant, when they asked Trunks he said Black's true power is only a little higher than the power he showed against Goku.

He said he was stronger in the future, which he was. The show said several times that Black was holding back and Trunks said that Black was as strong or stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Since the exact same writer wrote that episode and the Goku vs. Black fight, I doubt he would forget what he wrote.

No, he specifically he said he was only a little stronger, not a whole lot.
From Herms:
　14:19 | Future Trunks: "I feel like he was a little stronger in the future..."
　14:22 | Goku: "Not way stronger, just a little?"
　14:24 | Future Trunks: "Yes, I think so."

[HeroR]

No, he specifically he said he was only a little stronger, not a whole lot.
From Herms:
　14:19 | Future Trunks: "I feel like he was a little stronger in the future..."
　14:22 | Goku: "Not way stronger, just a little?"
　14:24 | Future Trunks: "Yes, I think so."

Since Goku knows that Black is equal to his Super Saiyan 3, he's asking Trunks did he seem stronger than before.

[TheUltimateNinja]

No, he specifically he said he was only a little stronger, not a whole lot.
From Herms:
　14:19 | Future Trunks: "I feel like he was a little stronger in the future..."
　14:22 | Goku: "Not way stronger, just a little?"
　14:24 | Future Trunks: "Yes, I think so."

Since Goku knows that Black is equal to his Super Saiyan 3, he's asking Trunks did he seem stronger than before.

No, he asks how strong Black was just now compared to how he was in the future, and Trunks replies he was only a little stronger in the future.

[HeroR]

No, he asks how strong Black was just now compared to how he was in the future, and Trunks replies he was only a little stronger in the future.

Are you purposely ignoring what was said not even an episode ago about Black's power, or do you think the writer forgot what he wrote not even an episode ago?

[Bullza]

Yeah after Trunks fought Goku he said that Black was about as strong and then said no maybe a little stronger.

Goku fought Black as a Super Saiyan and they were about equal. Then afterward Trunks said Black was a little stronger in the future.

That makes it seem as though Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3 Goku are roughly the same in strenght.

Future Black >= SSJ3 Goku = Present Black = SSJ Goku

It would have made far more sense if Goku had used his Super Saiyan 3 form in that fight.

[TheUltimateNinja]

No, he asks how strong Black was just now compared to how he was in the future, and Trunks replies he was only a little stronger in the future.

Are you purposely ignoring what was said not even an episode ago about Black's power, or do you think the writer forgot what he wrote not even an episode ago?

Are you purposely ignoring Trunks' statement that the level Black displayed against Goku isn't much weaker than his level in the future? The obvious implication here is that SSJ3 Goku didn't show Trunks his full power.

Yeah after Trunks fought Goku he said that Black was about as strong and then said no maybe a little stronger.

Goku fought Black as a Super Saiyan and they were about equal. Then afterward Trunks said Black was a little stronger in the future.

That makes it seem as though Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3 Goku are roughly the same in strenght.

Future Black >= SSJ3 Goku = Present Black = SSJ Goku

It would have made far more sense if Goku had used his Super Saiyan 3 form in that fight.

Goku was using SSJ2.