I just read the manga from beginning to end for the very first time

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Re: I just read the manga from beginning to end for the very first time

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:31 pm

sintzu wrote:He is if you're looking for something more in Goku and Freeza's relationship. Without Bardock, Goku has no connection to Freeza other than "he's the main character so he's fighting the main villain of the arc" which is what a lot of anime do.

The Bardock special is even better if you watch it before the original DB cause there's this anticipation that builds across 8 arcs of them finally confronting each other. It also builds up his fight with Vegeta (and I think with Piccolo). Goku's unnatural strength, his ape form & his origin don't come out of nowhere if you watch the Bardock special first.
I completely disagree with all of this. Goku and Freeza DON'T have any connection to each other besides "he's the main character so he's fighting the main villain of the arc," and Bardock's existence doesn't do jack and squat to change that. Freeza doesn't know who Bardock is in relation to Goku. Goku doesn't have the slightest idea what Freeza is even referring to. And even if he did, Freeza is talking about someone Goku doesn't personally know. So for anyone looking for more to Goku's and Freeza's relationship, looking to Bardock is going to lead to nothing but disappointment. The manga's referencing of the Bardock special is a fun little shoutout but contributes exactly nothing to the story.

In all of Dragon Ball circles, there is little I disagree with more than starting the franchise with the Bardock special. In part that's because I believe in principle that prequels should never be watched chronologically. They simply aren't designed that way. But in this particular case, it makes absolutely no sense to me. The Bardock special does not fit at the beginning, be it tonally, thematically, or narratively. The story of Dragon Ball is not intertwined with the story of Freeza, nor is Freeza the ultimate big bad of the franchise, so opening the franchise with a build up to him is a mistake. It gives the events in the special undue importance that the series proper never ultimately capitalizes on.

Opening the franchise with a grand tragedy right before serving up slapstick and panty jokes is tonal whiplash so severe it would make any new fan's head spin. What kind of story is this? Who are these characters we see for 45 minutes who don't show up again for literally 200 episodes?

And why on earth would you want to spoil Goku's origins like that? Again, the question of his origin does not become relevant again for literally years of the story, so it's a setup that's immediately dropped and seemingly forgotten. It distracts from the stories that are being told in the meantime because it's this lingering question that begs to be resolved. It makes those other stories feel like frustrating padding in light of the narrative threads the "first" episode sets up. It disconnects us from the perspective of the main characters because we're saddled with this irrelevant information that nobody else knows rather than learning it organically through the story and when it becomes narratively justifiable.

At least when Kai opened with the Bardock special, as ill-advised as I found it there too, it jumped straight to material that justified its inclusion. Obviously it still has the problem of implying that all narrative threads are leading to Freeza, which is just as misleading as it would be at the beginning of the franchise. But at least it's tonally consistent and immediately justifies its existence. But either way, it doesn't belong at the front of the story.

At any rate, I agree with ABED on this one. Bardock is not important to the overall story of Dragon Ball. His story is a side story, and the Bardock special stands out as one of the best standalone pieces in the franchise... but it has next to no importance in the overall scheme of things.
Last edited by Gaffer Tape on Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I just read the manga from beginning to end for the very first time

Post by ABED » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:36 pm

Not remotely. Bardock's death is meaningless to Goku. Goku didn't know him.
Without Bardock, Goku has no connection to Freeza other than "he's the main character so he's fighting the main villain of the arc" which is what a lot of anime do.
And John McClane had no connection to Hans Gruber before Hans took Holly hostage. It wasn't personal in the beginning, but it became personal. The connection you are referring to is so superficial that it's meaningless. A lot of bad stories have some connection between the hero and the villain like what you are referring to and it doesn't necessarily make it better.

You can excise Bardock from the story completely and nothing changes.
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Re: I just read the manga from beginning to end for the very first time

Post by sintzu » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:58 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:It distracts from the stories that are being told in the meantime because it's this lingering question that begs to be resolved. It makes those other stories feel like frustrating padding in light of the narrative threads the "first" episode sets up.
This is a really good point I didn't think of. I know the entire story like the back of my hand so watching it before everything else doesn't matter to me but to a new fan it would make everything before the Saiyan arc seem like filler that's dragging that plot line out.
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Re: I just read the manga from beginning to end for the very first time

Post by floofychan333 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:12 am

I'm currently in the process of buying and reading every manga volume (I've got 21 out of 46 so far) and I must say, it makes me see Dragon Ball in a new, wonderful way and I can admire Akira Toriyama's art even more. Since I watched the anime first, I knew what was going to happen, but the manga has been a great way for me to relive the story and frankly, if I want to re-experience the series, I'd probably read the manga rather than watch the anime because it would take less time to read than watch.
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Re: I just read the manga from beginning to end for the very first time

Post by ecrockedboston » Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:34 pm

I've only ever watched Z up until the Android saga. I now own all 14 Vizbigs, and every episode of the series, including most of Super. I'm currently up to where Namek blows up. I have to say, I'm absolutely loving the manga.

I used to always be confused about complaints regarding filler. It just expands an already fantastic story, right? Well, I can safely say I no longer feel that way. I watched DB up until the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, and then it happened. Namu's issue with his village's draught wasn't over, and he neede Goku to save the day. I just couldn't do it any more. So having recently read the manga any way, I skipped to the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai and was back to enjoying the anime. For some reason, I just wasn't too much a fan of the RR Army story, even in thr manga I thought it dragged on.

In any case, I'm very excited to finish both the manga and the anime for the first time!
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Re: I just read the manga from beginning to end for the very first time

Post by sintzu » Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:06 pm

ecrockedboston wrote:For some reason, I just wasn't too much a fan of the RR Army story, even in thr manga I thought it dragged on.
Even Toriyama wasn't satisfied with how it turned out :
Then after that (the 21st Tenkaichi arc), you returned to the adventure format with the Red Ribbon Army.

I tried to fight it. (laughs) I had Arale-chan make an appearance, and made things comical, and it felt like a struggle. But in the end, I couldn’t even satisfy myself, so I decided to bite the bullet and make it all about the fighting. Once that decision was out of the way, I felt a lot better.
I think the best thing that arc did was introduce us to multiple locations cause it made earth seem very interesting.
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Re: I just read the manga from beginning to end for the very first time

Post by ecrockedboston » Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:24 pm

sintzu wrote:
ecrockedboston wrote:For some reason, I just wasn't too much a fan of the RR Army story, even in thr manga I thought it dragged on.
Even Toriyama wasn't satisfied with how it turned out :
Then after that (the 21st Tenkaichi arc), you returned to the adventure format with the Red Ribbon Army.

I tried to fight it. (laughs) I had Arale-chan make an appearance, and made things comical, and it felt like a struggle. But in the end, I couldn’t even satisfy myself, so I decided to bite the bullet and make it all about the fighting. Once that decision was out of the way, I felt a lot better.
I think the best thing that arc did was introduce us to multiple locations cause it made earth seem very interesting.
Interesting. Thanks for the insight.
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Re: I just read the manga from beginning to end for the very first time

Post by GTx10 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:20 pm

I've never read the Manga from beginning to end but I have watched the anime from beginning to end. I think Dragon Ball (Original) is a "better product" then its later Z years. I think Toriyama had his best ideas during Goku's younger days, things like the first DB hunt, the three tournaments, the Red Ribbon arc, and the Demon King Piccolo arcs just ooze "fun" and adventure. The DB anime did a good job of portraying the "fun" aspects of Toriyama's story while giving some decent world building. However I think GT took the Manga in the next logical step, Goku training Oob. Turning Son into a kid gave the writers a excuse to use Goku's old man wisdom while maintaining a Shonen lead. (Although Goku is still foolish in that series too) Plus the Shadow Dragon arc gave us a real issue, the cast's constant misuse of the Dragon Balls. It even reflects Toriyama's new Manga ending.
It's not the Dragon Balls that will save the day, its the strong guys and gals who will defend the world. I'd say Son Goku because strong at the end of GT. Something happened to him, that's for sure.
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Re: I just read the manga from beginning to end for the very first time

Post by sintzu » Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:50 pm

ecrockedboston wrote:Interesting. Thanks for the insight.
Even though he wasn't satisfied with it, he didn't rush or mess it up, beofre that interview I had no idea he felt like that cause of how much effort he put into that arc. another writer most likely would've rushed through it the minute they lost intrest with it but Toriyama gave it his all, like he did with the manga's other 9 arcs.
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Re: I just read the manga from beginning to end for the very first time

Post by TheGreatness25 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:00 pm

To the OP, I'm glad you read it. I also watched the anime and then read the manga. Definitely worth it. I'd recommend for anyone who can't invest the excruciatingly long hours that it would take to watch Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z, to read through the manga. I could get through it in a couple of days, easy.

I think that the story definitely could have continued beyond Boo with exactly the same premise: Stronger evil guy shows up. That's what happened in GT. I do find it much more creative and refreshing that Akira Toriyama went down the route that he did, but I also feel that he painted himself into a corner. Now that they're dealing with deities that are on a completely other level, they need to keep finding stronger and stronger deities. No mortal villain could really pose a threat again. But really, the story continuing after Boo is no different than what happened after Freeza or Cell. The only thing that didn't feel like "closure" after those was that Goku wasn't around. But then, magical powerful villain pulled out of nowhere and the story continues.

So, I definitely think that the story could have continued, but this is a more creative approach. The only negative is that I question the series' longevity because the premise will get stale at some point. How many more powerful deities can come along?

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Re: I just read the manga from beginning to end for the very first time

Post by sintzu » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:21 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:No mortal villain could really pose a threat again.
Freeza did.
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Re: I just read the manga from beginning to end for the very first time

Post by TheGreatness25 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:26 pm

Uh huh. He sure did. He really posed a big challenge lol

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Re: I just read the manga from beginning to end for the very first time

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:29 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:Uh huh. He sure did. He really posed a big challenge lol
He did... at first.

In all seriousness, he would have actually posed a threat if he'd trained for a little while longer. Freeza's haste is what got in the way, but there's no reason someone stronger couldn't come along.
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Re: I just read the manga from beginning to end for the very first time

Post by TheGreatness25 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:39 pm

Sure, it could be done, but I don't know how it would be able to follow the deities.

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Re: I just read the manga from beginning to end for the very first time

Post by Lunaar » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:50 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
TheGreatness25 wrote:
sintzu wrote:Freeza did.
Uh huh. He sure did. He really posed a big challenge lol
He did... at first.
In all seriousness, he would have actually posed a threat if he'd trained for a little while longer. Freeza's haste is what got in the way, but there's no reason someone stronger couldn't come along.
I took this mention as his return to Earth following his defeat on Namek, but... then again, the same argument could be made. He would have actually posed a threat if Trunks hadn't been there to chop shop.

Really though, the "this would have been so much different if that happened instead" response should be pointless by now. Avo and Cado could have arrived and wrecked everyone's shit if the Cyborgs had already taken care of everyone and- ...wait a second. Avo and Cado would have shown up in Future Trunks' timeline too, right? This would have happened years before Gohan was killed, so... maybe 17 and 18 took care of them?

...I think I just blew a gasket as I wrote this. Guess I know some situations I want from the next Xenoverse game now. :o
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Re: I just read the manga from beginning to end for the very first time

Post by The gr » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:43 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:It definitely has an entirely different vibe than the anime, and in a good way. Although the world definitely could have continued without new gods. I know I bring this up a lot, but we literally saw less than a dozen planets. For Toriyama to have created a gigantic universe, it's bizarre how little we've seen. Also, there's that Demon Realm thing that was teased and never went anywhere. There were plenty of threads for new stories that were never followed up on.
That's my biggest grip with Dragon Ball as a whole: the universe feel so much smaller than it really is. Earth itself just fels like such a barren wasteland of nothingness after the Red Ribbon Army arc. It's one of the pitfalls of Toriyama's writing style. Once he's done with a certain plot point, he will completely disregard it in favour of coming up with something else, without even taking into consideration the possibilities of whether what he has introduced can be expanded upon. The only time he will go back to a previous plot point is if it comes at the convenience of artificially continuing the story or the sake of one of the characters getting a cheap power up. His overall lackadaisical approach to the story is also culpable for Dragon Ball sub standard expansion of the baseline narrative. I mean, if wasn't for Toei, we probably would have never seen Goku's father.

Dragon Ball's world building is just crap.
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Re: I just read the manga from beginning to end for the very first time

Post by ABED » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:12 pm

Honestly, I like the simplicity of the world building. Namek having two types of people, fighters and healers, is easy to remember and works for the plot. The Middle Earth mythology is very dense and really hard to follow. Gandalf has several different names and it's not really explained.
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Re: I just read the manga from beginning to end for the very first time

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:51 pm

ABED wrote:Honestly, I like the simplicity of the world building. Namek having two types of people, fighters and healers, is easy to remember and works for the plot. The Middle Earth mythology is very dense and really hard to follow. Gandalf has several different names and it's not really explained.
Tolkien certainly went a little crazy with his lore, to the point where a huge portion of his stories end up being total fluff. Lord of the Rings is a prime example of how not to write a B-plot. That said, Dragon Ball does go a bit overboard (underboard?) in its simplicity.
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Re: I just read the manga from beginning to end for the very first time

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:07 pm

sintzu wrote: Even Toriyama wasn't satisfied with how it turned out :
Then after that (the 21st Tenkaichi arc), you returned to the adventure format with the Red Ribbon Army.

I tried to fight it. (laughs) I had Arale-chan make an appearance, and made things comical, and it felt like a struggle. But in the end, I couldn’t even satisfy myself, so I decided to bite the bullet and make it all about the fighting. Once that decision was out of the way, I felt a lot better.
I think the best thing that arc did was introduce us to multiple locations cause it made earth seem very interesting.
Ooh, that's an interview I've not read. Where did it come from?
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Re: I just read the manga from beginning to end for the very first time

Post by sintzu » Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:14 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:Ooh, that's an interview I've not read. Where did it come from?
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... interview/

These stand out to me :
I suppose the first time I started thinking about the Freeza arc was probably midway through Ma Junior. The series was up in the polls, so I probably had a hunch that I wouldn’t be able to end it any time soon.
I guess if he had his choice he would've ended it after the 23rd Tenkaichi.
I guess you could say I did all I could with Freeza, so I was burned out, and figured I couldn’t pull off a better battle than that. I thought, “Do I really have to keep going?”
Same as the above, if he could've ended it with Freeza he would've.
Even when Cell ended, it still didn’t feel like it could end.
I guess the 3 quotes above prove that if he could've ended it earlier than he did, he would have.
before the Boo story arc began, I said “Once this next thing wraps up, I want to end it no matter what.” Because I thought there was no way for any stronger guys to pop up, or for Goku to get any stronger than he already was.
I like it when authors know when to stop instead of milking something for all its worth.

Although Jump pushing him to continue is what got the franchise to where it is, it's nice that they knew when to back off and let him stop cause too much of something even if it's good can end up turning on itself.
I kind of liked forcing everything to come together, since that way it made it seem like I had really thought deeply about everything.
That's what I thought before reading his interviews. After watching both DB & Z I thought the whole thing was planned out. It didn't cross my mind for a second that not only he didn't plan much out but he was pushed to continue beyond what he originally wanted to write.

This really shows what a great writer he is.
Once you decide on the ending, then that influences you so that you can’t change course midway no matter what happens. I’ve always thought it’s best to leave only the ending undecided.
This is a really good point and I think DB would've been very different if he thought things through.
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