ekrolo2 wrote:That is precisely why Trunks should've "won" not by killing Zamasu but by proving Zamasu's world view as wrong. That's the biggest issue with the arc itself, nobody really proves anything. Trunks doesn't prove his point of mortals being worthwhile and Zamasu doesn't prove his by showing they're worthless scum, all of it literally gets swept aside by the press of a button for a living plot device to solve the remaining physical threat.
That's all well and good to say, but how do you prove something like that? For every instance of someone helping an old lady down the street, Zamasu can point to another Planet like Barbari, where all they do is beat the shit out of each other. Even if the entire universe was full of old people being helped across the street, Zamasu hates old ladies. The arc wasn't about the opposing philosophies, the philosophy is just Zamasu's backstory.
What really should be driven home is Zamasu himself, drawing attention to his own intellectual and character failings. He's an emotional teenager with unfortunate power who got carried away with his own ideals. That this parallel hasn't been made is a crime!
Totamo wrote:
And because of that, he has now been labeled a gary stu, the male erza and not many people want to ever see him again.
Toyo may not be using but at least in many eyes, he ain't ruining him.
That isn't true. A lot of fans want to see him again and wished he stayed part of the main cast. It's only really the vocal people that calls him a Gary Stu.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
Toyotaru said he follows Toriyama's outlines pretty closely so if Trunks isn't fighting or doing anything important then you can blame Toriyama for it.
Some fans have wanted to see Toriyama's scrips to see what's different between them and the anime and I think this manga is as close as we're going to get to that.
What I can't wait to see is the ending and weather or not Goku and Vegeta fuse. at this point I wouldn't be surprised if Black and Zamasu don't fuse.
HeroR wrote:It's only really the vocal people that calls him a Gary Stu.
That's because he was. He was untouchable by anyone.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
sintzu wrote:Toyotaru said he follows Toriyama's outlines pretty closely so if Trunks isn't fighting or doing anything important then you can blame Toriyama for it.
Some fans have wanted to see Toriyama's scrips to see what's different between them and the anime and I think this manga is as close as we're going to get to that.
What I can't wait to see is the ending and weather or not Goku and Vegeta fuse. at this point I wouldn't be surprised if Black and Zamasu don't fuse.
HeroR wrote:It's only really the vocal people that calls him a Gary Stu.
That's because he was. He was untouchable by anyone.
He got his ass kicked by Black repeatedly even with his power-up and lost his timeline. In what world is that 'untouchable by anyone'?
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
Very good chapter, I enjoyed it. There was some beautiful art and the story is good.
Here's my list of pros and cons.
Pros:
- Manga Goku keeps being much better in the manga
- Vegeta's outfit being ruined after his training was a nice touch
- I love the battle damage and blood the manga has
- I like it how Kaioshin is actually very useful and smart
- I absolutely love the fact Trunks was saved by Kaioshin and Gowasu in his battle with Black and Zamasu, and wasn't saved off-screen/by a smoke or flash grenade
- I like the fact Black uses Supreme Kai-like moves
- I loved the scenes where Black and Zamasu wipe out the remaining earthlings. I also like how their plan is much more fleshed out in the manga
- I like how Toyotaro explains things
Cons
- Manga Black is vastly inferior to his anime counterpart. He's generic as shit, and I also don't like how Toyotaro draws him, especially in his base form. The anime did a much better job at replicating Toriyama's design of Black
- Battles are still way too short in the manga. It's mostly dialogues
Overall, the manga is a more coherent product, but the anime version, as of now, is more enjoyable. I still hope the manga will have Black vs Goku with the Goten and Chi-Chi death part, and I also wouldn't mind Trunks transforming in the manga too, and I also hope to see Black calling out on Trunks being guilty of everything as he is the one who created parellel worlds.
I also feel like the manga wouldn't be as good as it is if it weren't for the anime, and Toyotaro probably had it easier as the anime aired first so he might have had time to change his original plans.
The best thing ever would be mixing both the anime and manga, taking the best out of both. If such a thing really happened, this arc would have potential to be Top 3 out of every story arc of the franchise.
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”
What I consider canonical
Spoiler:
Dragon Ball Manga
Jaco: The Galactic Patrolman
Yo! Son Goku and Friends Return
Additional lore from Toriyama
Dragon Ball Daima
Here have I been wondering how FT Trunks would survive a blast in the face for the past weeks after the last chapter cliffhanger, but looks like Toyotaro didn't go that route and Black was just grabbing him...Okay then. Not gonna complain because I loved how brutal he was. On the top of that Black did a Kiai too, which I didn't saw coming either.
FT Trunks was about to pull off another Taiyoken asspull, but Zamasu forbid him of doing that.
Black character is better in the anime. In the manga he always gets scared when something unexpected happens, unlike the anime where he's always calm.
Still love their fight though!!
Once again, Whis explaining how Angels function after being so mysterious about it in ROF doesn't feel right. I will take the anime version where Kaioshin is the one doing the explanations about them.
Vegeta blowing out the Time Chamber in the anime was badass but I will always love battle damage, so 10 points for both.
Didn't like how Gowasu was convincing Black to surrender and I'm not seeing how Zeno would forgive him for killing all Gods in other timelines.
It also feels pointless Black killing a third Gowasu. They will just revive him anyway. I will take the anime version of that too.
I'm glad Toyotaro will fix one of my problems with the anime version, which was the amount trips back and forth. Two trips are enough.
Ok chapter, I guess. I loved the fight a lot, but the rest not so much.
The previous one was just too good.
A world without Dragon Ball is just boring.
Favourite old DB Animators: Masaki Sato and Tadayoshi Yamamuro
Favourite new DB Animators: Yuya Takahashi and Chikashi Kubota
ekrolo2 wrote:The manga is suffering from the same thing the Android arc has in that Trunks is little more than a walking plot device to get the ball rolling. Remove him after his initial trip and barely anything of worth would change, I guess Cell might try to destroy the world but it's not like he doesn't have a shortage of people to ask about why Vegeta is suddenly so powerful after a few days.
Toei did have the most "fanservice appropriate" approach by trying to power him up, they just did a shit job at it is all.
This seems pretty accurate. One version comes off as a gary stu, and the other is pretty much fairly insignificant within his own saga.
"Sighs...At my age, I already have a woman who follows me around thinking she's my wife. Oh! My youth's rotting away!" - Ataru Moroboshi
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:That's all well and good to say, but how do you prove something like that? For every instance of someone helping an old lady down the street, Zamasu can point to another Planet like Barbari, where all they do is beat the shit out of each other. Even if the entire universe was full of old people being helped across the street, Zamasu hates old ladies. The arc wasn't about the opposing philosophies, the philosophy is just Zamasu's backstory.
What really should be driven home is Zamasu himself, drawing attention to his own intellectual and character failings. He's an emotional teenager with unfortunate power who got carried away with his own ideals. That this parallel hasn't been made is a crime!
That IS a very great parallel, one that's a lot easier to prove than the whole "are mortals good or bad'" business, I'll think about incorporating it in my rewrite.
BTW, if Gogeta appears, I want footage of you eating that shoe
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
ekrolo2 wrote:I want footage of you eating that shoe
Someone has it in their signature, so I won't be able to bury it. I'm still confident enough that I'm not worrying, though.
That person would be me. And if Gogeta does appear in the manga, would you like your shoe boiled, steamed or fried?
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
Someone has it in their signature, so I won't be able to bury it. I'm still confident enough that I'm not worrying, though.
That person would be me. And if Gogeta does appear in the manga, would you like your shoe boiled, steamed or fried?
I'm going to drown it in chicken broth and share it with my Great Dane. It'll be raw.
Good. Just wanted to know.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
So basically Toei and toyotaro screw ft trunk in his own arc,anime trunks is a Gary Stu and a asspull elitist but at least he is relevant, meanwhile his manga counterparts is the ultimate punching bag and do little to the plot but I'm going to wait for the arc to end,so pick your poison
I agree with everyone anime Goku black≥manga Goku black because he is way more entertaining, but we can all agree manga Goku black is way better than most of the DB villain with the exception of namek saga frieza, beerus,vegeta,fat buu and imperfect cell so basically in my opinion he is way better than %98 of DB villain,oh and a cute kitty cat was in the time machine in this chapter
Last edited by The gr on Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
I think Trunks has established himself as the main character of the arc, even in the manga. He even got his little solo Boo Arc where he killed Dabra and Babidi. He's also instrumental in Goku's and Vegeta's escape, just to mention a few highlights. He's also probably the character with more fights.
It isn't necessary to win any fight to be an important character. Seriously, look back at this arc and you'll see.
LightBing wrote:I think Trunks has established himself as the main character of the arc, even in the manga. He even got his little solo Boo Arc where he killed Dabra and Babidi. He's also instrumental in Goku's and Vegeta's escape, just to mention a few highlights. He's also probably the character with more fights.
It isn't necessary to win any fight to be an important character. Seriously, look back at this arc and you'll see.
Bulma was pretty pivotal in early DB and she never won any fights.
LightBing wrote:I think Trunks has established himself as the main character of the arc, even in the manga. He even got his little solo Boo Arc where he killed Dabra and Babidi. He's also instrumental in Goku's and Vegeta's escape, just to mention a few highlights. He's also probably the character with more fights.
It isn't necessary to win any fight to be an important character. Seriously, look back at this arc and you'll see.
I completely agree with you.He had 2 fights against Black in the manga arc while Goku & Vegeta have only 1 each so far.While Trunks lost both of them,he probably is the most important character,based on many things.
My Dragon Ball Super 'Canon'
Spoiler:
Battle of Gods/Resurrection 'F' films
Dragon Ball Super: Broly
Dragon Ball Super manga chapter 05-
No one has mentioned that the reason Beerus doesnt help Goku and co is because he was being lazy and would rather stay on Earth eating food, while in the anime the main reason was that Hakaishins cant travel in time.
Totamo wrote:
And because of that, he has now been labeled a gary stu, the male erza and not many people want to ever see him again.
Toyo may not be using but at least in many eyes, he ain't ruining him.
That isn't true. A lot of fans want to see him again and wished he stayed part of the main cast. It's only really the vocal people that calls him a Gary Stu.
Like I said, Super is very divisive when it come to trunks.
