Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Since this question was ignored earlier, I'll ask it again.

Is Goku really 10x stronger than he was at the U6 tournament?

It's was just barely implied. I personally think Goku meant that it's useless since he could just do the Kaioken easily to counterattack it.

[TheUltimateNinja]

How they grow and escalate is certainly BS but typically a good reason existed for when the pecking order got shuffled around. Like Cell getting knocked off the top spot because Gohan got a new SS level. If you tried applying Super logic to old stuff, Krillin would've gotten a rage boost at Cell then beat the shit out of him for a while until his power faded.

This logic is invalid because Kuririn is not a Saiyan.

Super logic does whatever it wants

Something similar is about to happen in the manga. Vegeta just came out of the RoSAT, so this means he's probably going to start thrashing Black like in the anime, however the difference is in the anime the gap between his SSBlue and Black's SSRose wasn't all that much, but in the manga he was getting crushed by SSJ2 Black so this means Vegeta's going to cover the gap between SSJ2 and SSBlue in only a couple months of training. His SSJ2 was already absurdly more powerful than Goku's SSJ3, now he can probably oneshot SSBlue Goku with only SSJ2.

[Zamasu55]

Since this question was ignored earlier, I'll ask it again.

Is Goku really 10x stronger than he was at the U6 tournament?

He states he can beat Hit (Champa saga) without Kaiohken, so... yes.

[Bullza]

I don't know about him being 10x stronger, I'll have to rewatched those two fight scenes.

However Merged Zamasu was more powerful than that Kaioken x10 Goku because Vegeta said he had the most powerful Ki he'd ever felt or something like that.

And then when Goku fought and used Kaioken he appeared to be even more powerful than Needed Zamasu. It's debatable if he used Kaioken x2 specifically. I don't know why that would be considered a life risking attack or why he collapsed afterward if it was just x2 when he seemed in better shape after using the x10 but whatever.

So if it was something like

SSJB Goku (U6) - 1
SSJB Goku (FT) - 6
SSJB Kaioken x10 (U6) - 10
Merged Zamasu - 11
SSJB Goku Kaioken x2 (FT) - 12

Even that would make him six times stronger than he previously was and that's just a bare minimum too.

[Khin]

Merged Zamasu got blasted away by Goku’s Kamehameha and got half his body destroyed, you could say that he got vastly weaker after that.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I know it may be "pain in ass", but I would like to bring back discussion about Enraged ss2/mutation vegeta which appeared in bog and fought beerus for a bit.

I would like to know where people put him now, considering silent retcon theory and without this theory. Also about rof ss gohan in compare to ultimate. In my opinion Gohan as others characters finally hit the wall(limit to gain more power until divine/dietes methods were brought up to them). I wonder if he already in bog was slightly weaker at least as he couldn't notice any gain from training and forgetting about it or doing it too rarely was not enough to even keep up him at the same power level.
I also believe kid buu fight ss3 goku was already close to post rosat ss gotenks level or slightly above as holding back buu saga ss3 goku was around post rosat base gotenks. It could be Elder Kai giving goku's his life allowed goku to power up ss3 a bit too, but is only assumption.

Ultimate gohan should 16x times post rosat ss gotenks/kid buu fight ss3 goku. In bog I have goku getting 6 times stronger while Gohan getting 4 times weaker then in buu saga so this way Gohan was below ss3 goku in bog. Also Gotenks, due to both goten and trunks playing too much around without training got weaker 4 times I think.
Enraged ss2 vegeta was complimented by beerus and acknowledged by Roshi("Vegeta finally suprassed goku"), which would refer only to buu saga ss3 goku which was at the most ss gotenks, however beerus said "I have even more fun with you then other Saiyan at Kaio's planet" or something like thta, which means Vegeta would get 8 times stronger then he was before, easily suprassing buu saga ss3 goku(which Roshi compared him to), but also suprassing trained hardly ss3 goku bog arc.

This way original Ultimate Gohan would be still 2 times stronger then Enraged ss2 vegeta. also about rof ss gohan, to determine his power we have to determine where base gohan would be placed. I would use Rof Piccolo who also by buu arc seems to hit "wall of limit" so he barerly grown stronger or even get slightly weaker after bog as he was busy helping taking care of baby Pan, so

Rof Picoolo - 50% cell arc ssj goku
rof Base gohan - 50% cell arc ssj gohan
4x rof Base gohan - ss2 kid gohan
16x rof Base gohan - buu arc ss3 goku
rof gotenks
ss rof Gohan
80x rof Base gohan - post rosat ss gotenks
1600 x rof Base gohan - post rosat ss3 gotenks
3200 x rof Base gohan - post rosat ss3 gotenks

what do you guys think ? Could it make sense using silent retcon theory ?

We can see how strong Mutated SS2 Vegeta is from his fight with Black, since the Super manga establishes that Vegeta's SS2 form was permanently powered-up & it wasn't a temporary rage boost.

Goku & Vegeta are equals when in the same form ever since Boo arc ended, and SS3 is x4 stronger than SS2. SS3 Goku was equal to SS2 Trunks (who had also powered up his SS2 form, but not to the same level as Vegeta did), and while SS2 Trunks was much weaker than base Black, he was at least strong enough to push him back, so let's say that base Black was x2 stronger than SS2 Trunks. SS Black* is x50 stronger than his base, and Mutated SS2 Vegeta was even stronger, but Black was strong enough to create a barrier that could withstand Vegeta's ki blasts, so let's say that MSS2 Vegeta is x2 stronger than SS Black. This makes MSS2 Vegeta about x200 stronger than SS3 Goku.

Meanwhile, SS Gotenks is at around the same level as SS3 Goku, and SS3 Gotenks is x8 stronger than that, while Ultimate Gohan is less than x2 stronger than SS3 Gotenks (since Gotenks Boo, who is SS3 Gotenks + Evil Boo, who were equals, is stronger than U. Gohan), so Vegeta is many times stronger than them too.

Which makes sense, since SS3 Goku, SS3 Gotenks, and U. Gohan were all flies in front of Beerus (and there is no indication that Gohan or Gotenks had gotten any weaker), while MSS2 Vegeta manage to give Beerus some resistance.

*And no, Black is not a Super Saiyan 2, he is a regular Super Saiyan who most likely has sparks because he is abnormally powerful for a Saiyan (his base form alone is stronger than a SS3), like SS Vegetto had sparks when he transformed. Even though he has sparks, his hairstyle is clearly the same SS Goku has, not the one SS2 Goku has.

[ekrolo2]

*And no, Black is not a Super Saiyan 2, he is a regular Super Saiyan who most likely has sparks because he is abnormally powerful for a Saiyan (his base form alone is stronger than a SS3), like SS Vegetto had sparks when he transformed. Even though he has sparks, his hairstyle is clearly the same SS Goku has, not the one SS2 Goku has.

Given that Toyotaro is a fanboy, I think he would've wrote the characters to specify Super Saiyan 2 if it was that or even "Super Saiyan beyond Super Saiyan" for Trunks since he wasn't familiar with Goku's terminology of the forms before.
I too think Black's sparks are just because his Base form is ridiculously strong, probably somewhere in the same range as Manga Base Vegetto. Given the fact Vegetto never really uses his full SS power, I think you can safely rationalize the lack of sparks afterward as him not being at full SS power to stomp Boohan.

[Alruneia]

*And no, Black is not a Super Saiyan 2, he is a regular Super Saiyan who most likely has sparks because he is abnormally powerful for a Saiyan (his base form alone is stronger than a SS3), like SS Vegetto had sparks when he transformed. Even though he has sparks, his hairstyle is clearly the same SS Goku has, not the one SS2 Goku has.

Given that Toyotaro is a fanboy, I think he would've wrote the characters to specify Super Saiyan 2 if it was that or even "Super Saiyan beyond Super Saiyan" for Trunks since he wasn't familiar with Goku's terminology of the forms before.
I too think Black's sparks are just because his Base form is ridiculously strong, probably somewhere in the same range as Manga Base Vegetto. Given the fact Vegetto never really uses his full SS power, I think you can safely rationalize the lack of sparks afterward as him not being at full SS power to stomp Boohan.

There exists a collection of SSJ Black shots from throughout the manga. Since that's a few chapters old, I don't think it's used much anymore, so I don't know where to find it, but I know for a fact that the image shows that Black's hair did not properly match with SSJ2 once, but fit SSJ1 just fine several times. Goku's hairstyle is the easiest one (besides Cell Games Gohan) to spot the difference in, too.

[TheUltimateNinja]

If Black is using SSJ, that makes things even worse. Vegeta is supposed to go from getting thrashed by SSJ Black to beating SSRose Black with just a few months of RoSAT training? Maybe the U6 Arc implication that SSBlue is only 10x SSJ isn't that far off the mark after all.

[Bullza]

So do we no longer think Base Black was actually stronger than SSJ3 Goku then?

It does look like SSJ2Goku is stronger than SSJ2 Trunks so I've reversed my opinion on that.

In the manga Trunks was confident he could beat Zamasu if he were alone though Zamasu does say not to underestimate him. For now I still believe there's no real significant difference in power between Present and Future Zamasu and he is just weaker than SSJ2 Trunks.

[ssbgoku]

I know it may be "pain in ass", but I would like to bring back discussion about Enraged ss2/mutation vegeta which appeared in bog and fought beerus for a bit.

I would like to know where people put him now, considering silent retcon theory and without this theory. Also about rof ss gohan in compare to ultimate. In my opinion Gohan as others characters finally hit the wall(limit to gain more power until divine/dietes methods were brought up to them). I wonder if he already in bog was slightly weaker at least as he couldn't notice any gain from training and forgetting about it or doing it too rarely was not enough to even keep up him at the same power level.
I also believe kid buu fight ss3 goku was already close to post rosat ss gotenks level or slightly above as holding back buu saga ss3 goku was around post rosat base gotenks. It could be Elder Kai giving goku's his life allowed goku to power up ss3 a bit too, but is only assumption.

Ultimate gohan should 16x times post rosat ss gotenks/kid buu fight ss3 goku. In bog I have goku getting 6 times stronger while Gohan getting 4 times weaker then in buu saga so this way Gohan was below ss3 goku in bog. Also Gotenks, due to both goten and trunks playing too much around without training got weaker 4 times I think.
Enraged ss2 vegeta was complimented by beerus and acknowledged by Roshi("Vegeta finally suprassed goku"), which would refer only to buu saga ss3 goku which was at the most ss gotenks, however beerus said "I have even more fun with you then other Saiyan at Kaio's planet" or something like thta, which means Vegeta would get 8 times stronger then he was before, easily suprassing buu saga ss3 goku(which Roshi compared him to), but also suprassing trained hardly ss3 goku bog arc.

This way original Ultimate Gohan would be still 2 times stronger then Enraged ss2 vegeta. also about rof ss gohan, to determine his power we have to determine where base gohan would be placed. I would use Rof Piccolo who also by buu arc seems to hit "wall of limit" so he barerly grown stronger or even get slightly weaker after bog as he was busy helping taking care of baby Pan, so

Rof Picoolo - 50% cell arc ssj goku
rof Base gohan - 50% cell arc ssj gohan
4x rof Base gohan - ss2 kid gohan
16x rof Base gohan - buu arc ss3 goku
rof gotenks
ss rof Gohan
80x rof Base gohan - post rosat ss gotenks
1600 x rof Base gohan - post rosat ss3 gotenks
3200 x rof Base gohan - post rosat ss3 gotenks

what do you guys think ? Could it make sense using silent retcon theory ?

We can see how strong Mutated SS2 Vegeta is from his fight with Black, since the Super manga establishes that Vegeta's SS2 form was permanently powered-up & it wasn't a temporary rage boost.

Goku & Vegeta are equals when in the same form ever since Boo arc ended, and SS3 is x4 stronger than SS2. SS3 Goku was equal to SS2 Trunks (who had also powered up his SS2 form, but not to the same level as Vegeta did), and while SS2 Trunks was much weaker than base Black, he was at least strong enough to push him back, so let's say that base Black was x2 stronger than SS2 Trunks. SS Black* is x50 stronger than his base, and Mutated SS2 Vegeta was even stronger, but Black was strong enough to create a barrier that could withstand Vegeta's ki blasts, so let's say that MSS2 Vegeta is x2 stronger than SS Black. This makes MSS2 Vegeta about x200 stronger than SS3 Goku.

Meanwhile, SS Gotenks is at around the same level as SS3 Goku, and SS3 Gotenks is x8 stronger than that, while Ultimate Gohan is less than x2 stronger than SS3 Gotenks (since Gotenks Boo, who is SS3 Gotenks + Evil Boo, who were equals, is stronger than U. Gohan), so Vegeta is many times stronger than them too.

Which makes sense, since SS3 Goku, SS3 Gotenks, and U. Gohan were all flies in front of Beerus (and there is no indication that Gohan or Gotenks had gotten any weaker), while MSS2 Vegeta manage to give Beerus some resistance.

*And no, Black is not a Super Saiyan 2, he is a regular Super Saiyan who most likely has sparks because he is abnormally powerful for a Saiyan (his base form alone is stronger than a SS3), like SS Vegetto had sparks when he transformed. Even though he has sparks, his hairstyle is clearly the same SS Goku has, not the one SS2 Goku has.

Well, yeah we saw how strong Mutated or rather enraged to limits SS2 Vegeta was in bog, but there was only compirison him to goku, who to suprass Buu arc Ultimate gohan had to get 800 times stronger, considering that common known fact is that buu arc ss3 goku ~ post rosat base gotenks.

Also even skipping that for moment, Especially first episode of super followed by two next use of narrator who introduce audience to peace time occuring on earth and in other planets after reminding how goku beat up kid buu. There is strong implication by narrator that everyone stopped training or decreased it's rate to really minimum while only vegeta and goku were shown training very hard.

We are talking about anime continuity and please clarify me if I get it wrong, but Was there any episode where vegeta turned ss2 after bog, I am sure not. Also it isn't set power level, but rather multiplier of base form which according to goku already suprassed rage ss2 vegeta while training with whis.

Bold part that true, but for pre rosat ss gotenks which was almost suprassed or at least equalized with post rosat base gotenks, which widden gap between ss3 goku and ultimate gohan times 50. Yes there is indication of them getting weaker see introduction of my post.

[ekrolo2]

So do we no longer think Base Black was actually stronger than SSJ3 Goku then?

It does look like SSJ2Goku is stronger than SSJ2 Trunks so I've reversed my opinion on that.

In the manga Trunks was confident he could beat Zamasu if he were alone though Zamasu does say not to underestimate him. For now I still believe there's no real significant difference in power between Present and Future Zamasu and he is just weaker than SSJ2 Trunks.

Vegeta says his SS2 is stronger than Trunks' which was on par with SS3 Goku which was somewhat inferior to Base Black so yeah, he's that strong in Base.

[Bullza]

Vegeta says his SS2 is stronger than Trunks' which was on par with SS3 Goku which was somewhat inferior to Base Black so yeah, he's that strong in Base.

Well that's the manga and there is that. I'm referring to the anime for this though and what some of us were talking about recently.

Black fought against SSJ2 Goku and they were equal. Later on Trunks says that in the future, Black was only a little stronger. So Black should just be a little stronger than SSJ2 Goku so how can he be stronger than SSJ3 Goku when he's suppose to have quadruple the power of SSJ2 Goku?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

*And no, Black is not a Super Saiyan 2, he is a regular Super Saiyan who most likely has sparks because he is abnormally powerful for a Saiyan (his base form alone is stronger than a SS3), like SS Vegetto had sparks when he transformed. Even though he has sparks, his hairstyle is clearly the same SS Goku has, not the one SS2 Goku has.

Given that Toyotaro is a fanboy, I think he would've wrote the characters to specify Super Saiyan 2 if it was that or even "Super Saiyan beyond Super Saiyan" for Trunks since he wasn't familiar with Goku's terminology of the forms before.
I too think Black's sparks are just because his Base form is ridiculously strong, probably somewhere in the same range as Manga Base Vegetto. Given the fact Vegetto never really uses his full SS power, I think you can safely rationalize the lack of sparks afterward as him not being at full SS power to stomp Boohan.

There exists a collection of SSJ Black shots from throughout the manga. Since that's a few chapters old, I don't think it's used much anymore, so I don't know where to find it, but I know for a fact that the image shows that Black's hair did not properly match with SSJ2 once, but fit SSJ1 just fine several times. Goku's hairstyle is the easiest one (besides Cell Games Gohan) to spot the difference in, too.

The only times his hairstyle doesn't match SS Goku's are when he powered up (we've seen that powering up can cause a wind that pushes the hair upwards, unless you want to argue that Goku briefly turned into a SS2 against Freeza), and when he is running around. There rest of the time his hairstyle is that of regular SS, and it's a ton of panels where he looks like that. Saying that Black is a SS2 because he has sparks & ignoring his hairstyle is like calling SS3 Goku a SS2 because he has sparks, ignoring his hairstyle...

If Black is using SSJ, that makes things even worse. Vegeta is supposed to go from getting thrashed by SSJ Black to beating SSRose Black with just a few months of RoSAT training? Maybe the U6 Arc implication that SSBlue is only 10x SSJ isn't that far off the mark after all.

The U6 arc actually implies that 10% SSB Vegeta is much stronger than Mutated SS2 Vegeta, since Vegeta chose to use SSB for a second time & get x10 weaker instead of going MSS2. Again, it was never stated that you have to be equal or weaker than Hit in order for his Tokitobashi to work properly, that was a mistranslation from MangaStream. In the Viz translation, Whis says that the Tokitobashi works properly against those who are weaker or close to Hit, and by close he meant close enough for his Tokitobashi to work. Goku had to use SSG in order to surpass Hit to the point that his Tokitobashi wouldn't work, he was already stronger than Hit in his regular SS form, and SS2 & SS3 wouldn't make him strong enough since 10% SSB Vegeta, who was much stronger than SS3 Goku, couldn't surpass the Tokitobashi. Also, the only point that Goku was stated to have surpassed 10% SSB Vegeta was when he used SSG. So, SSB being only x10 SS is a misconception. The manga also doesn't have anything that contradicts what we saw in the movies; that SSG Goku was much stronger than Boo arc Vegetto was at full power, and that SSB is stronger than SSG, yet less than x2 stronger.

Well, yeah we saw how strong Mutated or rather enraged to limits SS2 Vegeta was in bog, but there was only compirison him to goku, who to suprass Buu arc Ultimate gohan had to get 800 times stronger, considering that common known fact is that buu arc ss3 goku ~ post rosat base gotenks.

There is nothing saying that SS3 Goku had surpassed U. Gohan in BoG, and SS3 Goku is not as strong as base Gotenks. Gotenks only thought that he had surpassed his previous SS self in his base form because he is an arrogant idiot, and it turned out to be false, and Piccolo only assumed this was the case because he saw that Gotenks was stronger than before & took Gotenks' word for it. If that was the case, SS Goten & Trunks would have been stronger than SS3 Goku on their own. And let's not forget that the whole thing was just a gag.

We are talking about anime continuity and please clarify me if I get it wrong, but Was there any episode where vegeta turned ss2 after bog, I am sure not.

I was using the manga as reference because it's the only thing that gives us a better idea (Vegeta uses MSS2 against Black in the manga), and I don't think there isn't anything suggesting that Mutated SS2 Vegeta's power was different between the movie, the anime, and/or the manga, but if you want to ignore the manga, it's perfectly fine since they are not in the same continuity.

Also it isn't set power level, but rather multiplier of base form which according to goku already suprassed rage ss2 vegeta while training with whis

At least in the manga, it is shown that the multiplier of SS2 can increase. Future Trunks brought his SS2 form at SS3 level through training in the manga, and Vegeta made it over x200 when he got angry against Beerus.

Yes there is indication of them getting weaker see introduction of my post.

Maybe Gohan got weaker (though we are not told so), but I really doubt Goten & Trunks got weaker after 4 years when back in Boo arc, Gohan didn't train for 7 years and the only thing he lost was his rage boost ability.

[ekrolo2]

If Black is using SSJ, that makes things even worse. Vegeta is supposed to go from getting thrashed by SSJ Black to beating SSRose Black with just a few months of RoSAT training? Maybe the U6 Arc implication that SSBlue is only 10x SSJ isn't that far off the mark after all.

The U6 arc actually implies that 10% SSB Vegeta is much stronger than Mutated SS2 Vegeta, since Vegeta chose to use SSB for a second time & get x10 weaker instead of going MSS2. Again, it was never stated that you have to be equal or weaker than Hit in order for his Tokitobashi to work properly, that was a mistranslation from MangaStream. In the Viz translation, Whis says that the Tokitobashi works properly against those who are weaker or close to Hit, and by close he meant close enough for his Tokitobashi to work. Goku had to use SSG in order to surpass Hit to the point that his Tokitobashi wouldn't work, he was already stronger than Hit in his regular SS form, and SS2 & SS3 wouldn't make him strong enough since 10% SSB Vegeta, who was much stronger than SS3 Goku, couldn't surpass the Tokitobashi. Also, the only point that Goku was stated to have surpassed 10% SSB Vegeta was when he used SSG. So, SSB being only x10 SS is a misconception. The manga also doesn't have anything that contradicts what we saw in the movies; that SSG Goku was much stronger than Boo arc Vegetto was at full power, and that SSB is stronger than SSG, yet less than x2 stronger..

Would you consider this an accurate visualization of how Hit's Time Skip works? I assume from what you've said that you believe "being close" works both ways for those weaker, on par or stronger than him. This makes sense to me since Hit is weaker than in the anime and can't improve Time Skip so it seems logical to make it work both ways up to a point for those stronger than him.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If Black is using SSJ, that makes things even worse. Vegeta is supposed to go from getting thrashed by SSJ Black to beating SSRose Black with just a few months of RoSAT training? Maybe the U6 Arc implication that SSBlue is only 10x SSJ isn't that far off the mark after all.

The U6 arc actually implies that 10% SSB Vegeta is much stronger than Mutated SS2 Vegeta, since Vegeta chose to use SSB for a second time & get x10 weaker instead of going MSS2. Again, it was never stated that you have to be equal or weaker than Hit in order for his Tokitobashi to work properly, that was a mistranslation from MangaStream. In the Viz translation, Whis says that the Tokitobashi works properly against those who are weaker or close to Hit, and by close he meant close enough for his Tokitobashi to work. Goku had to use SSG in order to surpass Hit to the point that his Tokitobashi wouldn't work, he was already stronger than Hit in his regular SS form, and SS2 & SS3 wouldn't make him strong enough since 10% SSB Vegeta, who was much stronger than SS3 Goku, couldn't surpass the Tokitobashi. Also, the only point that Goku was stated to have surpassed 10% SSB Vegeta was when he used SSG. So, SSB being only x10 SS is a misconception. The manga also doesn't have anything that contradicts what we saw in the movies; that SSG Goku was much stronger than Boo arc Vegetto was at full power, and that SSB is stronger than SSG, yet less than x2 stronger..

Would you consider this an accurate visualization of how Hit's Time Skip works? I assume from what you've said that you believe "being close" works both ways for those weaker, on par or stronger than him. This makes sense to me since Hit is weaker than in the anime and can't improve Time Skip so it seems logical to make it work both ways up to a point for those stronger than him.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean.

[TheUltimateNinja]

If Black is using SSJ, that makes things even worse. Vegeta is supposed to go from getting thrashed by SSJ Black to beating SSRose Black with just a few months of RoSAT training? Maybe the U6 Arc implication that SSBlue is only 10x SSJ isn't that far off the mark after all.

The U6 arc actually implies that 10% SSB Vegeta is much stronger than Mutated SS2 Vegeta, since Vegeta chose to use SSB for a second time & get x10 weaker instead of going MSS2. Again, it was never stated that you have to be equal or weaker than Hit in order for his Tokitobashi to work properly, that was a mistranslation from MangaStream. In the Viz translation, Whis says that the Tokitobashi works properly against those who are weaker or close to Hit, and by close he meant close enough for his Tokitobashi to work. Goku had to use SSG in order to surpass Hit to the point that his Tokitobashi wouldn't work, he was already stronger than Hit in his regular SS form, and SS2 & SS3 wouldn't make him strong enough since 10% SSB Vegeta, who was much stronger than SS3 Goku, couldn't surpass the Tokitobashi. Also, the only point that Goku was stated to have surpassed 10% SSB Vegeta was when he used SSG. So, SSB being only x10 SS is a misconception. The manga also doesn't have anything that contradicts what we saw in the movies; that SSG Goku was much stronger than Boo arc Vegetto was at full power, and that SSB is stronger than SSG, yet less than x2 stronger..

Then this means Vegeta is about to become hundreds of times stronger.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Tournament Goku: 1 Kaioken x10: 10
Copy Vegeta Arc Goku: 1.2
Future Trunks Arc Goku: 1.5
SSRose Black: 2
Goku (Rage boost): 2.5
Black (Scimitar): 3.5
SSRage Trunks: 3
Vegeta (Post RoSAT): 4.5
Black (Scythe): 5
Merged Zamasu: 7.5
Goku: 8
Goku (Hit rematch): 10

Yeah, I am starting to feel that Goku's skill and instincts allowed him to counter Hit.

SSB Goku (RoF Saga): 1
Golden Frieza: 1.3
SSB Goku (U6 Saga): 1.5
SSB KK×10 Goku (U6 Saga): 15
Hit (U6 Saga): 4.0
SSB Goku (Copy-Vegeta Saga): 1.7
SSB Goku (Start of F. Trunks Saga): 1.8
SSR Goku Black: 2.3
SSB Goku (Rage Boost, F. Trunks Saga): 2.5
SSRage F. Trunks: 2.5
SSR Goku Black (Scimitar): 3.0
SSB Vegeta (Post-RoSaT, F. Trunks Saga): 4.0
SSB Goku (Zenkai, F. Trunks Saga): 4.0
SSR Goku Black (Scythe): 4.5
Merged Zamasu (Halo): 7.0
SSB Vegeta and SSRage F. Trunks (Galick Gun): 6.5
SSB Goku (Breaking Arms Kamehameha): 7.5
SSB KK×2 Goku (Broken Arms Kick): 8.0
Merged Zamasu (Rage): 8.0
SSB Vegito (F. Trunks Saga): 8.5
Merged Zamasu (Weakened): 7.5
SSRage F. Trunks (Spirit Bomb Sword): 8.0
Hit (Hit Saga): 4.5
SSB Goku (Hit Saga): 4.5

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If Black is using SSJ, that makes things even worse. Vegeta is supposed to go from getting thrashed by SSJ Black to beating SSRose Black with just a few months of RoSAT training? Maybe the U6 Arc implication that SSBlue is only 10x SSJ isn't that far off the mark after all.

The U6 arc actually implies that 10% SSB Vegeta is much stronger than Mutated SS2 Vegeta, since Vegeta chose to use SSB for a second time & get x10 weaker instead of going MSS2. Again, it was never stated that you have to be equal or weaker than Hit in order for his Tokitobashi to work properly, that was a mistranslation from MangaStream. In the Viz translation, Whis says that the Tokitobashi works properly against those who are weaker or close to Hit, and by close he meant close enough for his Tokitobashi to work. Goku had to use SSG in order to surpass Hit to the point that his Tokitobashi wouldn't work, he was already stronger than Hit in his regular SS form, and SS2 & SS3 wouldn't make him strong enough since 10% SSB Vegeta, who was much stronger than SS3 Goku, couldn't surpass the Tokitobashi. Also, the only point that Goku was stated to have surpassed 10% SSB Vegeta was when he used SSG. So, SSB being only x10 SS is a misconception. The manga also doesn't have anything that contradicts what we saw in the movies; that SSG Goku was much stronger than Boo arc Vegetto was at full power, and that SSB is stronger than SSG, yet less than x2 stronger..

Then this means Vegeta is about to become hundreds of times stronger.

We don't know exactly how Black's power works (like, why couldn't Goku get powerful like Black did if they have the same body), nor how SSR works yet. We also don't know what will happen between SSB Vegeta & SSR Black yet. Given what we know so far, personally I believe that Goku & Vegeta became Saiyans beyond God like in the movies (why do they only use SSB in the manga before RoSaT instead of SS?) & eliminated the state by mastering the power of SSG and learning how to transform at will inside the RoSaT, and because Black is a god inside a mortal's body, he became able to slowly draw out the SSG power through training & near-death power-ups, so by the time he was rivaling SSB Vegeta in his SS form, he had become a Saiyan beyond God which is where he hit the limit & figured he can now go SSB (turns out he turned SSR), and SSR is a less-than-x2 multiplier for him, like SSB was a less-than-x2 multiplier for SbG Goku & Vegeta.

[ekrolo2]

The U6 arc actually implies that 10% SSB Vegeta is much stronger than Mutated SS2 Vegeta, since Vegeta chose to use SSB for a second time & get x10 weaker instead of going MSS2. Again, it was never stated that you have to be equal or weaker than Hit in order for his Tokitobashi to work properly, that was a mistranslation from MangaStream. In the Viz translation, Whis says that the Tokitobashi works properly against those who are weaker or close to Hit, and by close he meant close enough for his Tokitobashi to work. Goku had to use SSG in order to surpass Hit to the point that his Tokitobashi wouldn't work, he was already stronger than Hit in his regular SS form, and SS2 & SS3 wouldn't make him strong enough since 10% SSB Vegeta, who was much stronger than SS3 Goku, couldn't surpass the Tokitobashi. Also, the only point that Goku was stated to have surpassed 10% SSB Vegeta was when he used SSG. So, SSB being only x10 SS is a misconception. The manga also doesn't have anything that contradicts what we saw in the movies; that SSG Goku was much stronger than Boo arc Vegetto was at full power, and that SSB is stronger than SSG, yet less than x2 stronger..

Then this means Vegeta is about to become hundreds of times stronger.

We don't know exactly how Black's power works (like, why couldn't Goku get powerful like Black did if they have the same body), nor how SSR works yet. We also don't know what will happen between SSB Vegeta & SSR Black yet. Given what we know so far, personally I believe that Goku & Vegeta became Saiyans beyond God like in the movies (why do they only use SSB in the manga before RoSaT instead of SS?) & eliminated the state by mastering the power of SSG and learning how to transform at will inside the RoSaT, and because Black is a god inside a mortal's body, he became able to slowly draw out the SSG power through training & near-death power-ups, so by the time he was rivaling SSB Vegeta in his SS form, he had become a Saiyan beyond God which is where he hit the limit & figured he can now go SSB (turns out he turned SSR), and SSR is a less-than-x2 multiplier for him, like SSB was a less-than-x2 multiplier for SbG Goku & Vegeta.

I just assumed in my list that his Goku had a ceiling of power higher than current Goku & Vegeta do and upon attaining Rose, Black hit that ceiling which isn't massively over Blue Goku & Vegeta, x2 at most. Because his Base is high and he's got a definitive wall to hit, the multiplier will naturally shrink to take into account these factors.