Jinzouningen psyche

[DragonBallLove]

If there are some characters I'd never get, that I'd never understood in their motivations and development, are the Jinzouningen twins. They go from a Bonnie and Clyde-esque life to beign dedicated killing machines with a specific programming to either ruthless genocidaires or family guys. I feel 17 and 18 change of heart between universes is really forced and unexplained, if ever suggested to be because 16 and Kuririn influence, and the presence and doings of Goku and Cell. Even then, is not like Vegeta's gradual character development where you can see a progression with marked breaking points.
Besides going into deconstruction, headcanoning and fanfiction territory, the franchise has ever suggested in any side material the reasons and motivations of the twins? Do you think that now that both are going to be fighting characters once again, DBS would dwell into that territory?

[Desassina]

All that I can say is that this was a great post, so I'm sorry if this thread has only gotten bumped up for a thumbs up, but this is the kind of investment that our time is due.

[DragonBallLove]

You don't know how hard is sometimes for me to articulate a topic, question or argument in english -not my native tongue, not one learned in any academic context, as I'm self-learned.

[Desassina]

You did great. Never mind the academic context, because the rules can only teach us a part of English, while the authors and musicians, for example, do all the rest. I bet that one could hardly tell why "an SSJ" is correct. I don't want to deviate the subject of this topic though.

[TheUltimateNinja]

You did great. Never mind the academic context, because the rules can only teach us a part of English, while the authors and musicians, for example, do all the rest. I bet that one could hardly tell why "an SSJ" is correct. I don't want to deviate the subject of this topic though.

Because of the way SSJ is pronounced, "Ess Ess Jay".

The "a/an" distinction isn't based on the first letter but rather on the sound, and since SSJ starts with a vowel sound you would use "an".

[nickzambuto]

If there are some characters I'd never get, that I'd never understood in their motivations and development, are the Jinzouningen twins. They go from a Bonnie and Clyde-esque life to beign dedicated killing machines with a specific programming to either ruthless genocidaires or family guys. I feel 17 and 18 change of heart between universes is really forced and unexplained, if ever suggested to be because 16 and Kuririn influence, and the presence and doings of Goku and Cell. Even then, is not like Vegeta's gradual character development where you can see a progression with marked breaking points.
Besides going into deconstruction, headcanoning and fanfiction territory, the franchise has ever suggested in any side material the reasons and motivations of the twins? Do you think that now that both are going to be fighting characters once again, DBS would dwell into that territory?

Trunks did say that the androids in the present were different from his androids. The 18 and 17 that we know never committed any acts beyond teenage mischief. As soon as they woke up, they were brazenly mocked and then assaulted by the cocky Super Vegeta and his friends. Although the Android twins were portrayed as villains at the time, the irony is that when you look back on that scene in hindsight, what they did was nothing but self defense. They might have enjoyed the self defense a bit too much, but nobody ever said they weren't weirdos. What's important is that they incapacitated their assaulters without any unnecessary sadism, and then left. It's no coincidence that the one person who didn't attack them, Krillin, was therefore not attacked himself.

Afterwards they steal cars, steal clothes, ransack Goku's house. These acts are against the law but I would hardly call them supervillains over it.

Their only outright villainous acts were killing Gero (who was a monster and ruined their lives) and wanting to kill Goku (simply because of their programming which they later ended up ignoring anyway).

Basically, the androids never needed development towards better personalities, because they already weren't bad people to start with. This actually makes them two of the more complex characters in Dragon Ball. You start off thinking of them as villains, but in hindsight, they were just typical rebellious teenagers who had too much power for their own good. As with all teenagers, simple aging was all that was required for them to mellow out. They both found families and careers and are pretty much normal people now. That, and the horrific events surrounding Cell probably gave them enough adrenaline for a lifetime.

[DragonBallLove]

Trunks did say that the androids in the present were different from his androids. The 18 and 17 that we know never committed any acts beyond teenage mischief.

That we know for sure, is the starting point to understand their psychology.

As soon as they woke up, they were brazenly mocked and then assaulted by the cocky Super Vegeta and his friends. Although the Android twins were portrayed as villains at the time, the irony is that when you look back on that scene in hindsight, what they did was nothing but self defense. They might have enjoyed the self defense a bit too much, but nobody ever said they weren't weirdos. What's important is that they incapacitated their assaulters without any unnecessary sadism, and then left. It's no coincidence that the one person who didn't attack them, Krillin, was therefore not attacked himself. Afterwards they steal cars, steal clothes, ransack Goku's house. These acts are against the law but I would hardly call them supervillains over it.

And whatever happened in the Mirai timeline that they went full psycho? Just Goku and 16 not being there? Even though I fell both stories could work standalone (selfdefensing and psychopaty), I dont see it being both coherent for divergences. I mean, they WERE the same individuals before divergence point.

Their only outright villainous acts were killing Gero (who was a monster and ruined their lives) and wanting to kill Goku (simply because of their programming which they later ended up ignoring anyway).

How could they just "ignore" such a thing? If it was that simple, how could it be that mandatory for them in the Mirai timeline to kill Goku, to the extreme his absence shattered their whole cosmovision and broke their minds? If not, such an effort to break with a mind controlling compulsion should have been titanic. Offscreen perhaps? Really would like for Super to dwell into it a little bit.

Basically, the androids never needed development towards better personalities, because they already weren't bad people to start with. This actually makes them two of the more complex characters in Dragon Ball. You start off thinking of them as villains, but in hindsight, they were just typical rebellious teenagers who had too much power for their own good. As with all teenagers, simple aging was all that was required for them to mellow out. They both found families and careers and are pretty much normal people now. That, and the horrific events surrounding Cell probably gave them enough adrenaline for a lifetime.

And what about the Mirai timeline ones? How did they become evil then? This makes me think... What if what DB proposes here is a "banality of evil" perspective? German philosopher Hannah Arendt develops the theme in her book "Eichmann in Jerusalem", where "she raised the question of whether evil is radical or simply a function of thoughtlessness, a tendency of ordinary people to obey orders and conform to mass opinion without a critical evaluation of the consequences of their actions and inaction." Though the concept refers to political and social structures, like nazism, that dictate the aforementioned orders and mass opinion, one can very well replace one political cosmovision with sheer boredoom. Also, the lack of perspective that kind of free power, not gained through effort but raped into your own body by a Mengele-esque madman. Every and each superhuman earthling character depicted in DB but C17, C18 and C20 gained their power by training and battling. How breaking would that power be for an unprepared mind?

[Pickle_Jar]

Also, the lack of perspective that kind of free power, not gained through effort but raped into your own body by a Mengele-esque madman. Every and each superhuman earthling character depicted in DB but C17, C18 and C20 gained their power by training and battling. How breaking would that power be for an unprepared mind?

One word: Tetsuo (from Akira)

[floofychan333]

Now that I think of it, I agree with you. Honestly, the androids seem to become good instantly. Not to say they didn't develop into better people over the time skip, but their development isn't really shown.

[Son_Gohan]

And whatever happened in the Mirai timeline that they went full psycho? Just Goku and 16 not being there? Even though I fell both stories could work standalone (selfdefensing and psychopaty), I dont see it being both coherent for divergences. I mean, they WERE the same individuals before divergence point.

I reckon Gero probably abused them more and tried tampering with their brains in an effort to make them more controllable.

[Cipher]

It's a bit of a jump, yeah. I've always written it off to their traumatic experiences with Cell, bonding with Kuririn and #16 in at least #18's case, and Goku being alive to keep them from beginning a killing spree from which there's no return. Possibly also whatever cosmic goodness Goku seems to represent. Cell's presence also changes the main timeline in a number of unexpected ways simply by virtue of butterfly-effect ripples (Goku's delayed heart virus, the presence of #19 and #20, etc.).

By the way, DragonBallLove, your English is impeccable for someone self-taught!

[DragonBallLove]

Thanks! I do my best whenever I can; you should listen to my crappy pronunciation though.

On topic: I guess that I have a little bit of an obsession with C18. I really want to like her, but there's still something lacking for me to claim her as my waif... I mean, my favorite female character (still midage Bulma in writing, GT Bulla in design). When Toriyama expanded their backstory in the Color tomes Q&As, I was very happy to see at least some development. It seems that the family life have a deep impact on them, doesn't it? Hope we see C17's family in Super.

Also, my memory of GT Super 17 arc is very fragmentary. Was any of the twins developed in it? Or was it shallow as a pageant Miss smile?

[MaxZ]

I think in the future timeline they were simply tortured more by dr gero then they were in the present

the time he spent building 19 is time he may have used to experiment on 17 and 18 in the future. I also feel like maybe he tried to take away their emotions to help control them in the future, but instead maybe he accidentally impaired their empathy.

[Hakaishin Saitama]

I think in the future timeline they were simply tortured more by dr gero then they were in the present

the time he spent building 19 is time he may have used to experiment on 17 and 18 in the future. I also feel like maybe he tried to take away their emotions to help control them in the future, but instead maybe he accidentally impaired their empathy.

Along the same lines, I think Gero most likely tinkered with their programming to dial in 'more murder' and 'less rebel'. He even mentions his hesitation to release them from their chambers due to ignoring orders in the past.