Daizenshuu Question, Possibly Tough One

Ex-Dubbie369 · Post by **Ex-Dubbie369** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:30 pm

Duo wrote:In the Japanese Anime, Goku does actually declare that Chibi Boo is the strongest. That's where the debate comes from in the first place, fundamentally, because such an inaccurate statement isn't made in the Manga, and it doesn't make sense for Boo to get weaker by absorbing, otherwise he...wouldn't. The only one that hindered his power was Dai Kaioshin because his jolly personality made Boo less aggressive, but not really weaker.

And this is why the manga and anime should be considered separate stories.
In the anime (Movie 13 specifically), Goku can beat a monster that Gohan couldn't. In the manga, Gohan is probably stronger than Goku, although not explicitly stated as such.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:20 am

What was the context of that statement? If it's where I think it is then it's likely they wanted the "Zomg Goku is the strongest!!11!!" crowd to be pleased... but it's possible that ... umm... something... like, the reference was to Buus that a certain character had fought or something to that effect.

SS2 Vegeto · Post by **SS2 Vegeto** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:10 pm

Really, again, it's pretty illogical to assume that Chibi Buu has even an inkling of a chance against a Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku at full power, considering he was beaten relentlessly at the start of their fight, and couldn't do a darn thing about it. Since we've brought up facial expression, Chibi Buu's reaction to something actually shooting out of the blast at him, post-kamehameha, wasn't exactly "I expected that to happen!", and Goku was pretty much uninjured, unless we're counting up burns and bruises. There's no reason to believe that Goku's kamehameha wouldn't have completely annihilated his every trace if he could maintain the flow of chi, and it's also not until after this that fatigue begins to seriously set in for Goku. The fact that he can't maintain chi is even directly expressed as being the problem. Vegeta says himself that at full power, Goku should be able to obliterate Buu in an instant, and Goku basically finds no dissagreeance. Indirectly, he openly acknoledges this, really. My last point, to add onto all of this, is simple. It's a manga. It's written by an asian man behind a desk, or on some other hard surface, with a graphite pen or pencil, who meets a strict deadline every week to put out a new chapter. If he writes something, and doesn't write anything to later contradict it, or hint otherwise, chances are, he meant it.

No, the anime and manga should never be used together to prove or talk about anything, really, especially on Buu. It's bad enough that it's as if they've never even read that part of the manga.

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:02 pm

Duo wrote:In the Japanese Anime, Goku does actually declare that Chibi Boo is the strongest.

Goku didn't have to declare it, The fight SHOWED who had the advantage and it was Kid Buu.

And this is why the manga and anime should be considered separate stories. In the anime (Movie 13 specifically), Goku can beat a monster that Gohan couldn't. In the manga, Gohan is probably stronger than Goku, although not explicitly stated as such.

Movies are NOT the Anime. The Dragonball movies are out of continuity.

Really, again, it's pretty illogical to assume that Chibi Buu has even an inkling of a chance against a Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku at full power, considering he was beaten relentlessly at the start of their fight, and couldn't do a darn thing about it.

Oh really, is that why Kid Buu was UNDAMAGED and Goku couldn't do anything about Buu regenerating and coming back to handle Goku's Super Saiya-jin 3 mode? Kid Buu was obviously unphased by Goku in that entire fight.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:51 pm

You're forgetting though that Goku stated he wasn't using his full power later because he wanted Vegeta to have a chance, and that if he could go SSJ3 he could take out Buu with a full-power attack. Think of graphs, maybe? Buu's power is linear, and Goku's has a negative derivative. Now I will go... umm... bite my hands for applying calculus to a discussion about Buu's power.

.

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:56 pm

I know what was suggested and claimed but I never SEEN Goku do any of that. Goku shot Buu with a full power Kamehameha and it did nothing to Kid Buu. Goku was even frustrated at the fact how Buu NEVER lost strength and kept reforming to a new state.

Don't really see how Goku would have defeated Kid Buu.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:38 pm

Phenomenol wrote:Movies are NOT the Anime. The Dragonball movies are out of continuity.

In the words of Oliver Hague; then have fun explaining why Garlic Jr. shows up in the anime and why Goku's so sure teleporting to help his friends against Super Buu would be futile. Rather you wanna believe it or not, some movies can be taken into consideration and even be proclaimed as such in the anime canon from various different points of view, being no more wrong than yourself. You declaring so confidently that, apparently for fact, none of the movies can be placed with the anime is just as ignorant as arrogant. Get a grip, in the end that's only your own opinion, you're no more right than when I point out movie 5's status because of a Cooler cameo in GT. It certainly doesn't help your case that movie events are referenced in the anime and a couple are even placed in a timeline in a Daizenshuu. Also, for upcoming debates, don't even try to be a hypocrite by saying that some things differing from the manga in the anime must be ignored because of "nit-picking reasons", only to say every other piece of filler should be placed in the manga continuity with the anime's events. Discussion of the anime, manga, Daizenshuus, Toriyama statements in interviews, and whatever the flying fuck else gets confusing enough without your jibber-jabber.

DBZ Japanese animated movies aren't in the anime category? o.o

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:04 pm

In the words of Mr. Toriyama (Toriyama > Oliver Hague); "Dragonball movies are classed in another dimension!" That obviously means out of CONTINUITY!!!

You obviously wrote a long winded rant for no reason.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:56 pm

Phenomenol wrote:In the words of Mr. Toriyama (Toriyama > Oliver Hague); "Dragonball movies are classed in another dimension!" That obviously means out of CONTINUITY!!!

I would very much love to see a specific, legit source for that. And even if that was said, Toriyama may've been comparing them to just the manga for all we know, not the anime.

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:47 pm

Search the forum, the interview is here.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:08 am

Phenomenal, your quote of me is entirely out of context. I was talking about how the Anime skewed the order of strength of the Boo's.

Goku's Kamehameha and attacks do, in fact, do something to Boo. The Kamehameha destroyed half of Boo. The thing that set Chibi Boo apart is that he could regenerate and recover nearly instantly without losing a wink of ki. That doesn't mean his overall strength was greater - it didn't need to be.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:28 am

Duo wrote:The thing that set Chibi Boo apart is that he could regenerate and recover nearly instantly without losing a wink of ki. That doesn't mean his overall strength was greater - it didn't need to be.

Couldn't all the versions of Boo do that? You know, besides a version of Boo that's getting physically hurt by someone far beyond his own strength.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:43 am

Conan the SSJ wrote:DBZ Japanese animated movies aren't in the anime category? o.o

Yeah, I told him that... Many times. No use, apparently.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:51 am

Tyro wrote:
Duo wrote:The thing that set Chibi Boo apart is that he could regenerate and recover nearly instantly without losing a wink of ki. That doesn't mean his overall strength was greater - it didn't need to be.
Couldn't all the versions of Boo do that? You know, besides a version of Boo that's getting physically hurt by someone far beyond his own strength.

While they all could reform and come back, observe carefully and you will note that none of them came back as fast or unrelentingly as Chibi Boo. Plus, the other ones would show signs of having lost Ki after taking large amounts of damage for a time. Take, for example, the time right before Gotenks reverts from Super Saiyan level 3. Boo was beaten back and damaged enough to be destroyed by Gotenks, which was hindered only by an untimely reversion. Chibi Boo's recovery was so fast that he would never have gotten to that point - which is why he had to be destroyed by something utterly encompassing and massive.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:59 am

Aha. And therein lies the solution.

Apparently, SSj3 Goku was powerful enough that he could have worn down Chibi Boo the same way Gotenks wore down Super Boo, had he used his full power.

Wait, did I just write "Boo" instead of "Buu?" Twice? Duo, you must be starting to get to me.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:14 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:Aha. And therein lies the solution.

Apparently, SSj3 Goku was powerful enough that he could have worn down Chibi Boo the same way Gotenks wore down Super Boo, had he used his full power.

That may have been what Goku figured. When Goku said that if he gathered his Ki to full he could win, I see no reason not to believe him. Look at the way Boo fights the 3 warriors - he fights exactly the same against all three. Boo doesn't have a reason to hold back because he's like a child, and it was all fun to him. The same Boo that was keeping up with Goku proceeded to pound the ever-living shit out of Vegeta like a rag doll continuously. The same pretty much applied for the fat Boo as well, whom, despite being a Boo, showed that he could sustain damage when smashed around long and hard enough, especially by another Boo. Fat Boo also regenerated at a slower pace.

I just woke up and so I've done gone and lost my train of though.

Kaboom wrote:Wait, did I just write "Boo" instead of "Buu?" Twice? Duo, you must be starting to get to me.

Aw, you make me feel special. I'd actually forgotten that I spell Boo/Buu different from most people. We could compromise and make it "Bou" or "Buo".

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:14 pm

Duo wrote:Goku's Kamehameha and attacks do, in fact, do something to Boo. The Kamehameha destroyed half of Boo. The thing that set Chibi Boo apart is that he could regenerate and recover nearly instantly without losing a wink of ki.

That is why Kid Buu was better than Goku. The monster could come back in a new form without losing strength. It is not kid Buu's fault that Goku did not have the Stamina/Endurance to keep up with kid Buu.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:16 pm

Phenomenol wrote:
Duo wrote:Goku's Kamehameha and attacks do, in fact, do something to Boo. The Kamehameha destroyed half of Boo. The thing that set Chibi Boo apart is that he could regenerate and recover nearly instantly without losing a wink of ki.
That is why Kid Buu was better than Goku. The monster could come back in a new form without losing strength. It is not kid Buu's fault that Goku did not have the Stamina/Endurance to keep up with kid Buu.

I know, and that's what I'm saying. Boo won because of Stamina and recovery ability, and not by having a greater level of Ki. Close, but not higher. It's just another example of something besides power being the determinant factor.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:17 pm

Duo wrote:Aw, you make me feel special. I'd actually forgotten that I spell Boo/Buu different from most people. We could compromise and make it "Bou" or "Buo".

You'd like that, wouldn't you.

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:23 pm

Duo wrote:I know, and that's what I'm saying. Boo won because of Stamina and recovery ability, and not by having a greater level of Ki. Close, but not higher. It's just another example of something besides power being the determinant factor.

Well, in power both seemed really close. Kid Buu was able to damage Goku and Goku was able to damage kid Buu. The only difference was kid Buu's durability.

Yeah, I guess we are right.