Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How strong do you guys have SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta (Pre Majin)? Goku said Dabura (Who Goku stated to be >= Perfect Cell) could be easily defeated by him or Vegeta, but SSJ2 Gohan was half of Majin Buu's power, so SSJ2 Gohan should be close to SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta.

And also, how big do you have the gap between USSJ Trunks and 50% Goku?

[dragonball0900]

How strong do you guys have SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta (Pre Majin)? Goku said Dabura (Who Goku stated to be >= Perfect Cell) could be easily defeated by him or Vegeta, but SSJ2 Gohan was half of Majin Buu's power, so SSJ2 Gohan should be close to SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta.

And also, how big do you have the gap between USSJ Trunks and 50% Goku?

I have SSJ Goku equal to Perfect Cell, with Vegeta being a bit below. The reason I think it's that way is because I don't think Dabura was stronger than Perfect Cell. I have him below Full Perfect Cell but stronger than the Perfect Cell that fought Goku and Gohan. And I also think Gohan was a SSJ against Dabura. Making Goku and Vegeta being stronger than Dabura, but equal or weaker than Full Perfect Cell.

As for the gap between Trunks and Goku, I have 50% Goku at 1,500,000,000 and USSJ Trunks at 1,400,000,000 (probably a bit less than that). I would say the gap is small, but it's still enough for Trunks to be surprised at Goku's strenght at Korin's.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How strong do you guys have SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta (Pre Majin)? Goku said Dabura (Who Goku stated to be >= Perfect Cell) could be easily defeated by him or Vegeta, but SSJ2 Gohan was half of Majin Buu's power, so SSJ2 Gohan should be close to SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta.

And also, how big do you have the gap between USSJ Trunks and 50% Goku?

I have SSJ Goku equal to Perfect Cell, with Vegeta being a bit below. The reason I think it's that way is because I don't think Dabura was stronger than Perfect Cell. I have him below Full Perfect Cell but stronger than the Perfect Cell that fought Goku and Gohan. And I also think Gohan was a SSJ against Dabura. Making Goku and Vegeta being stronger than Dabura, but equal or weaker than Full Perfect Cell.

As for the gap between Trunks and Goku, I have 50% Goku at 1,500,000,000 and USSJ Trunks at 1,400,000,000 (probably a bit less than that). I would say the gap is small, but it's still enough for Trunks to be surprised at Goku's strenght at Korin's.

Shouldn't Dabura be FP Perfect Cell level? Goku compared him to Perfect Cell, and later says he's even stronger than he tought. Even if Gohan was a MSSJ, Dabura could be just toying with Gohan to get some energy to Buu.

[dragonball0900]

How strong do you guys have SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta (Pre Majin)? Goku said Dabura (Who Goku stated to be >= Perfect Cell) could be easily defeated by him or Vegeta, but SSJ2 Gohan was half of Majin Buu's power, so SSJ2 Gohan should be close to SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta.

And also, how big do you have the gap between USSJ Trunks and 50% Goku?

I have SSJ Goku equal to Perfect Cell, with Vegeta being a bit below. The reason I think it's that way is because I don't think Dabura was stronger than Perfect Cell. I have him below Full Perfect Cell but stronger than the Perfect Cell that fought Goku and Gohan. And I also think Gohan was a SSJ against Dabura. Making Goku and Vegeta being stronger than Dabura, but equal or weaker than Full Perfect Cell.

As for the gap between Trunks and Goku, I have 50% Goku at 1,500,000,000 and USSJ Trunks at 1,400,000,000 (probably a bit less than that). I would say the gap is small, but it's still enough for Trunks to be surprised at Goku's strenght at Korin's.

Shouldn't Dabura be FP Perfect Cell level? Goku compared him to Perfect Cell, and later says he's even stronger than he tought. Even if Gohan was a MSSJ, Dabura could be just toying with Gohan to get some energy to Buu.

Yes, it's also possible. Although that would mean that Vegeta would need SSJ2 to defeat Dabura, and I always imagined Vegeta would just need SSJ to fight toe to toe with him, based on his comments.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I have SSJ Goku equal to Perfect Cell, with Vegeta being a bit below. The reason I think it's that way is because I don't think Dabura was stronger than Perfect Cell. I have him below Full Perfect Cell but stronger than the Perfect Cell that fought Goku and Gohan. And I also think Gohan was a SSJ against Dabura. Making Goku and Vegeta being stronger than Dabura, but equal or weaker than Full Perfect Cell.

As for the gap between Trunks and Goku, I have 50% Goku at 1,500,000,000 and USSJ Trunks at 1,400,000,000 (probably a bit less than that). I would say the gap is small, but it's still enough for Trunks to be surprised at Goku's strenght at Korin's.

Shouldn't Dabura be FP Perfect Cell level? Goku compared him to Perfect Cell, and later says he's even stronger than he tought. Even if Gohan was a MSSJ, Dabura could be just toying with Gohan to get some energy to Buu.

Yes, it's also possible. Although that would mean that Vegeta would need SSJ2 to defeat Dabura, and I always imagined Vegeta would just need SSJ to fight toe to toe with him, based on his comments.

Goku was surprised when Vegeta revealed SSJ2 despite the fact that earlier he stated Dabura wasn't much, so SSJ Vegeta is definitely above Dabura.

[dragonball0900]

Shouldn't Dabura be FP Perfect Cell level? Goku compared him to Perfect Cell, and later says he's even stronger than he tought. Even if Gohan was a MSSJ, Dabura could be just toying with Gohan to get some energy to Buu.

Yes, it's also possible. Although that would mean that Vegeta would need SSJ2 to defeat Dabura, and I always imagined Vegeta would just need SSJ to fight toe to toe with him, based on his comments.

Goku was surprised when Vegeta revealed SSJ2 despite the fact that earlier he stated Dabura wasn't much, so SSJ Vegeta is definitely above Dabura.

That's something I always agree too. That would mean that Dabura would not be Full Perfect Cell level as people think though. And I doubt SSJ Vegeta surpassed Full Perfect Cell yet. I have:

Cell (vs Goku and Gohan) < Dabura < SSJ Vegeta < Full Perfect Cell

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I have SSJ Goku equal to Perfect Cell, with Vegeta being a bit below. The reason I think it's that way is because I don't think Dabura was stronger than Perfect Cell. I have him below Full Perfect Cell but stronger than the Perfect Cell that fought Goku and Gohan. And I also think Gohan was a SSJ against Dabura. Making Goku and Vegeta being stronger than Dabura, but equal or weaker than Full Perfect Cell.

As for the gap between Trunks and Goku, I have 50% Goku at 1,500,000,000 and USSJ Trunks at 1,400,000,000 (probably a bit less than that). I would say the gap is small, but it's still enough for Trunks to be surprised at Goku's strenght at Korin's.

Shouldn't Dabura be FP Perfect Cell level? Goku compared him to Perfect Cell, and later says he's even stronger than he tought. Even if Gohan was a MSSJ, Dabura could be just toying with Gohan to get some energy to Buu.

Yes, it's also possible. Although that would mean that Vegeta would need SSJ2 to defeat Dabura, and I always imagined Vegeta would just need SSJ to fight toe to toe with him, based on his comments.

Also, Goku was surprised about Vegeta turning SSJ2.

Yes, it's also possible. Although that would mean that Vegeta would need SSJ2 to defeat Dabura, and I always imagined Vegeta would just need SSJ to fight toe to toe with him, based on his comments.

Goku was surprised when Vegeta revealed SSJ2 despite the fact that earlier he stated Dabura wasn't much, so SSJ Vegeta is definitely above Dabura.

That's something I always agree too. That would mean that Dabura would not be Full Perfect Cell level as people think though. And I doubt SSJ Vegeta surpassed Full Perfect Cell yet. I have:

Cell (vs Goku and Gohan) < Dabura < SSJ Vegeta < Full Perfect Cell

Then why Goku said Dabura is above Cell?

[dragonball0900]

Then why Goku said Dabura is above Cell?

He never said that, he just said they were around the same strenght. We don't know which one of them was stronger, but based on the comments Vegeta make, as well as the fight between Gohan and Dabura, it seems to imply that Dabura is below Full Perfect Cell, but above the Cell that fought Goku and Gohan.

[VegetaSSJBlue]

How strong do you guys have SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta (Pre Majin)? Goku said Dabura (Who Goku stated to be >= Perfect Cell) could be easily defeated by him or Vegeta, but SSJ2 Gohan was half of Majin Buu's power, so SSJ2 Gohan should be close to SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta.

And also, how big do you have the gap between USSJ Trunks and 50% Goku?

I have SSJ Goku equal to Perfect Cell, with Vegeta being a bit below. The reason I think it's that way is because I don't think Dabura was stronger than Perfect Cell. I have him below Full Perfect Cell but stronger than the Perfect Cell that fought Goku and Gohan. And I also think Gohan was a SSJ against Dabura. Making Goku and Vegeta being stronger than Dabura, but equal or weaker than Full Perfect Cell.

As for the gap between Trunks and Goku, I have 50% Goku at 1,500,000,000 and USSJ Trunks at 1,400,000,000 (probably a bit less than that). I would say the gap is small, but it's still enough for Trunks to be surprised at Goku's strenght at Korin's.

Shouldn't Dabura be FP Perfect Cell level? Goku compared him to Perfect Cell, and later says he's even stronger than he tought. Even if Gohan was a MSSJ, Dabura could be just toying with Gohan to get some energy to Buu.

Goku compared him to Super Perfect Cell.

[dragonball0900]

Goku compared him to Super Perfect Cell.

Goku never said Super Perfect Cell, he just said Cell. Also Goku never sensed Super Perfect Cell's power since he was already dead, Goku knew more about Perfect Cell's power than Super Perfect Cell's.

[DanielSSJ]

Not basing on numbers, how much strong you guys have Pre and Post-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks?

Something like:

Pre RoSaT SSJ Gotenks = Majin Vegeta?

Post RoSaT SSJ Gotenks = SSJ3 Goku?

Before training in the Room of Spirit and Time, I'd put Super Saiyan Gotenks somewhat below Majin Vegeta and SS Goku. Afterwards, he's roughly on par with Fat Boo.

<snip>

Okay, so I noticed a few... oddities... with your list.
- Why is Gurd at a mere 50?! I know he was pretty weak in comparison to the guys around him, but that is excessively weak. He should be in the low thousands at the very least.
- Why are Reacoom, Butta, and Jheese so far apart? Kuririn says that they're all pretty much even with each other, and a 20% gap between Reacoom and Butta seems to be pushing it.
- 3rd Form Freeza at 3 million and near-death Recovery Vegeta at 1.5 million seems a bit off to me. Most people I know tend to stick Freeza's 3rd form at around 2 million, give or take, but it's not like that's official or anything. To think that he'd be strong enough to take on Freeza's final form, Vegeta should be at least on par with his 3rd form, or a little stronger to be safe.
- Why did Goku barely improve in the three years between Trunks' warning and the Androids Arc? I don't think he made any monstrous gains, given his limiting training conditions, but going from 175 to 180 seems way to weak for me.
- I think Dr Gero's starting level was stronger than No. 19's, based on some of Gero's comments.
- There's a bunch of issues with Cell.

• 1. The difference between Imperfect Cell before and after he absorbed all those humans is pathetically small. I would put Ginger Town Cell closer to Vegeta's strength. He definitely shouldn't be on par with No. 18
  2. Like wise, Cell should be quite a bit stronger than No. 17 and Piccolo after he absorbed all those people, as should No. 16. Otherwise No. 17 wouldn't have been so outmatched, given that his stamina never drops
  3. Shouldn't Semi-perfect Cell equivalent to No. 17's power + Imperfect Cell's power? Where did all that extra power go?

- Not a big issue, but I think Super Perfect Cell should be on par with SS2 Gohan, or he should at least be closer than you put him.
- I'm not sure I buy Cell Games Piccolo being stronger than Trunks and on par with Vegeta.
- Kaioshin should be a lot stronger than Piccolo. It was stated in the series, and it was stated in one of the data books. Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo.
- Both Boo Arc Goku and Majin Vegeta were both stated to be above Cell Games Gohan here

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P8.1-4
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are about to fight
Goku: “I don’t wanna take any damage from you and have it become Majin Boo’s energy…So I’m gonna end this quickly, at maximum power.”
Vegeta: “I’m looking forward to this…Show me the fruits of your training in the afterlife. *Goku transforms into Super Saiyan 2* Just as I’d expect. Your power is greater than Gohan’s was back then!”

and here

Chapter: 465 (DBZ 271), P2.3
Context: as Vegeta fights Boo
Piccolo: “He’s already surpassed Super Saiyan as well…This is tremendous power…Perhaps even greater than Gohan’s when he fought Cell…”

- Likewise, I think the gap you have between regular Vegeta and Majin Vegeta is way too small. There's not enough of a difference to justify him handing over his soul to Bobbidi. I'd say Vegeta should've started off as strong as Cell Games Gohan, and gotten stronger from there.
- More of a personal point, but I'd make Fat Boo about twice as strong as the Super Saiyan 2s, given how Gohan's stolen power was nearly half of what Bobbidi needed to revive Boo.
- Ultimate Gohan should be a lot stronger than Evil Boo. He utterly thrashed him so there should be a bigger gap between the two of them.
- Post-Fusion Kaioshin probably shouldn't be that strong. Given the fact that he didn't participate in the final battle and Vegeta did,I'd say the guy is lower SS2 level. Definitely not within spitting distance of Majin Boo.
- I'm not commenting on the Dragon Ball Super Power levels, since I have long since stopped caring about strength comparisons in Super.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Okay, new list:
Mecha Freeza Arc:
Mecha Freeza: 140,000,000
-Suppressed: 95,000,000

King Cold: 100,000,000
Trunks: 3,600,000
-Super Saiyan: 180,000,000

Goku: 3,800,000
-Super Saiyan: 190,000,000

Vegeta: 3,000,000
Piccolo: 3,200,000
Yamcha: 15,000
Kuririn: 75,000
Tenshinhan: 40,000

Androids Arc:
Goku: 3,200,000
-Super Saiyan: 145,000,000 and dropping

Piccolo: 220,000,000
-Weighted: 180,000,000
-Suppressed: 40,000,000

Vegeta: 6,000,000
-Super Saiyan: 300,000,000
-Exhausted: 5,000,000

Trunks: 4,500,000
-Super Saiyan: 225,000,000

Android 19: 57,000,000
-Goku's energy: 110,000,000
-Vegeta's energy: 160,000,000

20: 70,000,000
-Energy absorbed: 100,000,000

Android 18: 400,000,000
Android 17: 440,000,000
Android 16: 640,000,000
Cell: 330,000,000
-Piccolo's arm: 350,000,000
-Humans absorbed: 660,000,000

Piccolo (Kami fusion): 440,000,000
-Weighted: 400,000,000
-Arm absorbed: 380,000,000
-Exhausted: 390,000,000

Cell Arc:
Semi Perfect Cell: 900,000,000
-Full power: 1,100,000,000

Perfect Cell: 1,300,000,000
-Vs Vegeta: 1,400,000,000
-Warmed up: 1,500,000,000
-Buff: 1,700,000,000

Vegeta: 18,000,000
-Super Saiyan: 900,000,000
-Grade 2: 1,350,000,000

Trunks: 17,600,000
-Super Saiyan: 880,000,000
-Grade 2: 1,320,000,000
-Grade 3: 1,600,000,000

Cell Games:
Goku: 70,000,000
-FPSSJ: 3,500,000,000
-About half: 1,700,000,000

Gohan: 80,000,000
-FPSSJ: 4,000,000,000
-SSJ2: 8,000,000,000

Piccolo: 1,400,000,000
Vegeta (2nd RoSAT): 36,000,000
-Super Saiyan: 1,800,000,000

Trunks (2nd RoSAT): 36,000,000
-Super Saiyan: 1,800,000,000

Cell: 1,500,000,000
-Powered up: 3,750,000,000
-Full power: 4,500,000,000
-Buff: 5,500,000,000
-Super Perfect: 7,500,000,000

Cell Jrs.: 1,800,000,000

Buu Arc:
Goku: 100,000,000
-SSJ: 5,000,000,000
-SSJ2: 10,000,000,000
-SSJ3: 40,000,000,000

Vegeta: 80,000,000
-Super Saiyan: 4,000,000,000
-Majin: 5,000,000,000
-SSJ2: 10,000,000,000

Gohan: 70,000,000
-Super Saiyan: 3,500,000,000
-Enraged SSJ2: 7,000,000,000

Goten: 56,000,000
-Super Saiyan: 2,800,000,000
Trunks: 60,000,000
-Super Saiyan: 3,000,000,000
Piccolo: 1,800,000,000
Dabura: 3,750,000,000
Buu: 14,000,000,000
-Enraged: 28,000,000,000
-Good: 12,000,000,000
-Evil: 16,000,000,000
-Super: 56,000,000,000

Gotenks: 5,600,000,000
-Super Saiyan: 11,200,000,000

Fusion Arc:
Goten (Post RoSAT): 70,000,000
-Super Saiyan: 3,500,000,000

Trunks (Post RoSAT): 70,000,000
-Super Saiyan: 3,500,000,000

Gotenks: 14,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan: 28,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan 3: 56,000,000,000

Gohan: 72,000,000
-Z sword: 80,000,000
-Ultimate: 80,000,000,000

Super Buu: 56,000,000,000
-Gotenks absorbed: 112,000,000,000
-Gohan absorbed: 140,000,000,000

Vegetto: 5,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan: 250,000,000,000

Kid Buu: 40,000,000,000

[emperior]

[

Okay, so I noticed a few... oddities...
- Why is Gurd at a mere 50?! I know he was pretty weak in comparison to the guys around him, but that is excessively weak. He should be in the low thousands at the very least.
- Why are Reacoom, Butta, and Jheese so far apart? Kuririn says that they're all pretty much even with each other, and a 20% gap between Reacoom and Butta seems to be pushing it.
- 3rd Form Freeza at 3 million and near-death Recovery Vegeta at 1.5 million seems a bit off to me. Most people I know tend to stick Freeza's 3rd form at around 2 million, give or take, but it's not like that's official or anything. To think that he'd be strong enough to take on Freeza's final form, Vegeta should be at least on par with his 3rd form, or a little stronger to be safe.
- Why did Goku barely improve in the three years between Trunks' warning and the Androids Arc? I don't think he made any monstrous gains, given his limiting training conditions, but going from 175 to 180 seems way to weak for me.
- I think Dr Gero's starting level was stronger than No. 19's, based on some of Gero's comments.
- There's a bunch of issues with Cell.

• 1. The difference between Imperfect Cell before and after he absorbed all those humans is pathetically small. I would put Ginger Town Cell closer to Vegeta's strength. He definitely shouldn't be on par with No. 18
  2. Like wise, Cell should be quite a bit stronger than No. 17 and Piccolo after he absorbed all those people, as should No. 16. Otherwise No. 17 wouldn't have been so outmatched, given that his stamina never drops
  3. Shouldn't Semi-perfect Cell equivalent to No. 17's power + Imperfect Cell's power? Where did all that extra power go?

- Not a big issue, but I think Super Perfect Cell should be on par with SS2 Gohan, or he should at least be closer than you put him.
- I'm not sure I buy Cell Games Piccolo being stronger than Trunks and on par with Vegeta.
- Both Boo Arc Goku and Majin Vegeta were both stated to be above Cell Games Gohan here

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P8.1-4
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are about to fight
Goku: “I don’t wanna take any damage from you and have it become Majin Boo’s energy…So I’m gonna end this quickly, at maximum power.”
Vegeta: “I’m looking forward to this…Show me the fruits of your training in the afterlife. *Goku transforms into Super Saiyan 2* Just as I’d expect. Your power is greater than Gohan’s was back then!”

and here

Chapter: 465 (DBZ 271), P2.3
Context: as Vegeta fights Boo
Piccolo: “He’s already surpassed Super Saiyan as well…This is tremendous power…Perhaps even greater than Gohan’s when he fought Cell…”

- Likewise, I think the gap you have between regular Vegeta and Majin Vegeta is way too small. There's not enough of a difference to justify him handing over his soul to Bobbidi. I'd say Vegeta should've started off as strong as Cell Games Gohan, and gotten stronger from there.
- More of a personal point, but I'd make Fat Boo about twice as strong as the Super Saiyan 2s, given how Gohan's stolen power was nearly half of what Bobbidi needed to revive Boo. Other than that.
- I'm not commenting on the Dragon Ball Super Power levels, since I have long since stopped caring about strength comparisons in Super.

Jeez, you pretty much destroyed my list. Thanks for that, by the way! I will surely fix all that's wrong. You're right on pretty much everything you wrote. And I noticed no one cares about DB Super lists, even though it would be nice to have some feedback on mine.

[DanielSSJ]

Jeez, you pretty much destroyed my list. Thanks for that, by the way! I will surely fix all that's wrong. You're right on pretty much everything you wrote. And I noticed no one cares about DB Super lists, even though it would be nice to have some feedback on mine.

It just goes to show how much of a fucking nerd I am.

[VegetaSSJBlue]

- Not a big issue, but I think Super Perfect Cell should be on par with SS2 Gohan, or he should at least be closer than you put him.

SS2 Gohan 50% > Super Perfect Cell

Okay, new list:
Gotenks: 14,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan: 28,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan 3: 56,000,000,000

Vegetto: 5,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan: 250,000,000,000

Base Gotenks > Base Vegetto?

[Kaboom]

Gohan didn't defeat Cell with only 50% of his power. He got his power back, plus some more on top of it, from that last emotional burst. Various guidebook bits label that as Gohan's "greatest power" and "the strongest Kamehameha in history" and stuff along those lines.

Plus narratively speaking, it'd be pretty damn anticlimactic if after everything he went through and the multiple power-ups he made at the Cell Games, Cell still didn't even get half as strong as Gohan.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Okay, new list:
Gotenks: 14,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan: 28,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan 3: 56,000,000,000

Vegetto: 5,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan: 250,000,000,000

Base Gotenks > Base Vegetto?

Manga Base Vegetto has no feats.

[VegetaSSJBlue]

Okay, new list:
Gotenks: 14,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan: 28,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan 3: 56,000,000,000

Vegetto: 5,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan: 250,000,000,000

Base Gotenks > Base Vegetto?

Manga Base Vegetto has no feats.

That's no reason to put him below his son...

SS Vegetto >>> SS Gotenks
Base Vegetto >>> Base Gotenks.

[ZombieVito]

Jeez, you pretty much destroyed my list. Thanks for that, by the way! I will surely fix all that's wrong. You're right on pretty much everything you wrote. And I noticed no one cares about DB Super lists, even though it would be nice to have some feedback on mine.

I would like to add that base Future Trunks is stronger than Super Saiyan Kid Trunks. Piccolo also needs to be closer than base Goku and Vegeta without god ki.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Base Gotenks > Base Vegetto?

Manga Base Vegetto has no feats.

That's no reason to put him below his son...

SS Vegetto >>> SS Gotenks
Base Vegetto >>> Base Gotenks.

I have reduced multipliers for Metamoran fusion and normal multipliers for Potara fusion due to the implication that Base Gotenks (Post) >> SSJ Gotenks (Pre)