Representations of Goku's character (GT & Super)

[ABED]

Sidestepping the issue of what Son "I'm choosing to stay dead forever; bye, guys!" Goku would and would not abandon his family for, nothing about GT's ending implies his journey with Shen-Long is voluntary. That's a reading you're bringing to it on your own.

Yeah, Goku clearly made a deal with Shen Long. I can't remember if it's to reverse the damage of the minus energy or it's to allow him to live long enough to destroy the One-Star Dragon. Either way, it was a quid pro quo. He didn't abandon anyone. He saved them at a price, one Goku would gladly pay to keep everyone safe. Even at Goku's worst, I think he would do something like this. It's either that or let everyone die and everything be destroyed.

[Cipher]

For the record, here is my interpretation of what's going on in GT's ending.

Basically, it's a deal to live long enough to defeat Yi Xing Long. The damage inflicted by the Minus Energy and Evil Dragons is never actually fixed -- everyone will have to rebuild on their own -- and Goku has to ask Shen-Long specifically to restore everyone's lives before the two of them take off.

GT makes Dragon Ball the story of a bunch of superpowered martial artists who continuously save the world through both their own tenacity and reliance on a bunch of mystic fix-alls, until the real world finally catches up with them in a number of ways and forces at least one permanent consequence. Never getting too grim, that consequence is laid upon the character the most bored by normal existence to begin with. Getting to see and do more fantastic things is no high price for Goku -- his dream is super-huge and all that -- though it's tinged by the bittersweetness of all the immediate good-byes.

[ABED]

I do think that price would be high even for Goku. He's still leaving behind everyone and everything he knows. And he's not bored by regular existence.

[Cipher]

I do think that price would be high even for Goku. He's still leaving behind everyone and everything he knows. And he's not bored by regular existence.

It's definitely not what he would have chosen, and immediately parting ways with all his loved ones is certainly tragic, even for him. It's still a sacrifice; no arguments there. It just isn't wholly awful because it's Goku -- the guy who would get fed up with normal life growing old anyway, and who would always wonder about whatever new experiences Shen-Long was offering.

As for not being bored by regular existence, I'd heavily debate that by the time the final portions of the series roll around. This is a character who's been eager to die since the Cell arc -- which GT doubles down on enormously -- who's continuously making reckless decisions for the sake of encountering stronger opponents, and for whom the manga heavily implies the ten years between Boo and Oob pass with an unlifting sense of ennui. Toriyama even wrote an ending for him and Vegeta in Dragon Ball Online that has them go out in a romantic blaze of glory as soon as they sense the onset of their twilight years.

I'm not at all saying he's eager, all circumstances equal, to sign off his remaining normal years on the spot. The ending wouldn't work if that were the case. But it is kind of a case of, "Well, if it had to happen to anyone ..." letting the ending better pull through on Goku's character and avoid feeling completely tragic. Whatever he's become on the other side of the one-hundred-year timeskip is probably more fun for him than milling around on Earth or in the afterlife.

I like the idea of Goku facing real consequences while also kind of/sort of getting the last laugh.

Conversely, Piccolo gets to be GT's Future Trunks, destined to always be making the best of the endless cavalcade of shit the universe saddles him with. I love that Goku's last words to him are an apology.

[ABED]

He does dangerous things, but I wouldn't consider that a death wish. On the contrary, he enjoys life and the thing that makes it interesting for him is to challenge himself. We're talking the Dragon Ball World where death isn't the end.

I like the idea of Goku facing real consequences while also kind of/sort of getting the last laugh.

Conversely, Piccolo gets to be GT's Future Trunks, destined to always be making the best of the endless cavalcade of shit the universe saddles him with. I love that Goku's last words to him are an apology.

Me too.

Piccolo's fate feels appropriate. He went to Heaven first and actually had to get himself sent to Hell. I like the idea that he's there to force the bad guys to stay in line. It feels like a great ending for the former Demon King.

[Cipher]

He does dangerous things, but I wouldn't consider that a death wish. On the contrary, he enjoys life and the thing that makes it interesting for him is to challenge himself. We're talking the Dragon Ball World where death isn't the end.

Courting danger isn't what leads me to that reading. It's more so his willingness to stay dead at the end of the Cell arc based, at least partially, on the presence of stronger opponents in the afterlife, followed by his lack of eagerness to return to the world of the living prior to and during the Boo arc. Then we have ten years of utter boredom during which he knows he's one of the strongest being in existence, with no good outlet for his energy. In a timeline where Oob doesn't fully alleviate his boredom, we have him willing to accept defeat or to sacrifice himself against opponents in GT at a fairly regular rate. I think he is super hungry to be beaten -- though obviously not at the hands of a supervillain who will immediately destroy Earth -- or otherwise find a change of pace. On top of all this, you have Toriyama's final ending for Goku, or at least the one he last wrote, seeing him and Vegeta both choose to go out in their prime.

It's particularly because death isn't the end in the Dragon Ball world that I feel both that he's eager for it and that some other outcome is better for Goku -- he's already been there and explored that. I think he's looking for something new.

"Death wish" may be a bit of a simplification, but I do think he's really hoping to come across an opponent who can beat him, and the afterlife is at least more interesting than Earth. More interesting still, though, is to become ... whatever he becomes ... by the end, not to wholly dismiss the consequence of having to part ways with his loved ones prematurely. That's a bummer.

[Totamo]

Turning back into a child after he had became an adult, physically while toriyama aged him after almost every arc how are the similar?

I meant GT's approach to aging wholesale, outside of Goku's alone, is closer to the manga's.

If goku being a kid is a problem for me, You can't debate that with me, you can try to make it seem irrelevant but that would be your opinion that its irrelevant.

No, but I could offer the perspective that it's not the singularly important issue you hold it to be. That is the arguable, interpretive part, and I have to imagine more what this thread was created to discuss. "Goku's physical kidness or adultness (GT & Super)" would be a pretty short read.

If you think Goku's physical age is the most important element in portraying his character or signaling his growth, that's fine, but that's the belief you're offering up for discussion.

I think this question sums it up best.

If a character's personality development is subjective, but a a character's physical development is objective, yet that his reversed.

What objectively is left of that character?

[Totamo]

Sidestepping the issue of what Son "I'm choosing to stay dead forever; bye, guys!" Goku would and would not abandon his family for, nothing about GT's ending implies his journey with Shen-Long is voluntary. That's a reading you're bringing to it on your own.

Yeah, Goku clearly made a deal with Shen Long. I can't remember if it's to reverse the damage of the minus energy or it's to allow him to live long enough to destroy the One-Star Dragon. Either way, it was a quid pro quo. He didn't abandon anyone. He saved them at a price, one Goku would gladly pay to keep everyone safe. Even at Goku's worst, I think he would do something like this. It's either that or let everyone die and everything be destroyed.

This is what dragon ball wiki says

"Shenron asks Goku if he will come along and Goku climbs on Shenron's back. After Goku climbs on, a recovering zenkai Vegeta runs over and asks Goku where he is going. A moment later, Vegeta realizes that Goku is going to train with Shenron and help fulfill this wish."


Now this could be wrong, but the fact that there is no clear answer is awful because it can seen that goku abandoned his family

[ABED]

It's not stated outright exactly what will happen to Goku, but we're given plenty to draw a conclusion about why Goku has to leave.

Never listen to what the Dragon Ball Wikia says. What does Vegeta's zenkai have to do with anything? It's not essential to the point.

[Cipher]

Vegeta's "You're going to train, aren't you?" is a dub-only line.

The script for FUNimation's dub completely butchers the events of episode 64. The Dragon Ball Wiki exclusively uses the FUNimation dub for its episode and character summaries. The original is ... not that obtuse. If you haven't watched the final two episodes of GT subtitled, definitely check them out.

[TheMikado]

I know we're talking subs here and I'll figure out what the Japanese version said later, but my favorite monologue/speech from Goku comes in the Dragonball arc.
Yes I know its the "Superman Goku" syndrome, but it still is great to see him take ownership of his part in causing the mess.

Syn Shenron: Of course I did. This isn't a game. And how dare you criticize your own creation? We're here, because of you.
Goku: What do you mean?
Syn Shenron: All of the Shadow Dragons were born because you misused the Dragon Balls, remember? It all started with you. Your world is crumbling because of your actions. You were warned about the overuse, but you didn't listen. This is all your fault.
Goku: Everything we ever wished for was always for the good of the planet. Old Kai warned me and I felt bad for doing it. But I never made a selfish wish. Every wish made on the Dragon Balls was important. Do you hear me? I did what was right for the planet then, and I'll do what is right for the planet now, even if I'm blind.
Syn Shenron: Hmm...a noble monkey. If you feel so bad about it then maybe death should be your penance.

[ekrolo2]

Vegeta's "You're going to train, aren't you?" is a dub-only line.

The script for FUNimation's dub completely butchers the events of episode 64. The Dragon Ball Wiki exclusively uses the FUNimation dub for its episode and character summaries. The original is ... not that obtuse. If you haven't watched the final two episodes of GT subtitled, definitely check them out.

I would argue that people should really watch GT in Japanese from start to finish, cause the dub for it is just atrocious and really doesn't do the show any favors.

[GTx10]

The issue I had with goku being a kid was that it got rid of the only definite development goku ever had.

Its debatable whether goku developed as a character throughout dragon ball and z, i think he did but others can give valid points he didn't.

However no one can argue that he didn't grow up physically, which was a big deal especially when at the time, characters stayed the same age, it was gamble for toriyama to age goku, something thats very iconic for his character. Hell, the reason gohan has so many fans is because he did grew up along side them.


GT ruined that for in one fell swoop. Turning goku into a child was a turn off for many and the one thing no can argue that GT did. You can argue whether its good or bad but you can't argue that it happened. This is also the biggest problem people have with goku in GT.

The problem people have with in super Goku is that he is selfish, naive and only cares about fighting. Now I can debate this.

That right there sums up how i feel about it

Son Goku's entire character evolved in Dragon Ball (original) alone. Son Goku is a completely different character by the time he beats Piccolo Jr. VS is first appearance in Dragon Ball. (original) GT Goku is a better Son Goku than Super Goku because he's balanced out. However! I do think GT Goku would've reacted to Golden Freeza the same way Super Goku did.
GT Goku would've loved to battle Hit and he would've helped out Future Trunks. I do not know how GT Goku would've reacted to Lord Beerus, the inability to become a SS-God and/or Lord Omni-King.