Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

I wonder if this arc will confirm the 2 base theory,

It already has for me.

[TheGreatSaiyaman]

Is Gohan near Buu's strength? He pretty much kicked Lavender's arse, having been poisoned with loads of poison to the point most of his body was covered and tbh that draw was bs.

[Animelover5487]

New episode....retcon is looking all but confirmed.

There's a lot of ways you can look at this episode. If we assume Lavender was roughly as strong as Basil and thats before he took the drug then Super Saiyan Gohan who was stronger but not enormously so looks to be weaker than Good Buu as he was in the Buu saga.

That would however mean that Piccolo was surely nerfed.

In the preview for the next episode Goku needs to use Super Saiyan against him and again we'd likely assume that Bergamo was roughly as strong as the other two. Otherwise it means Basil was about as strong as a Super Saiyan 2 but then both of his brothers are like a few dozen times the strength of Super Saiyan God or even just a few dozen times as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and nobody would believe that.

So yeah I'd say there was a retcon.

Basil has to be the weakest. He's the youngest sibling that to me is a strong implication that he's the weakest. I think even Base Gohan was equal to, if not stronger than Lavender based off the fight. Lavender was just able to fight SSJ Gohan because Gohan's power was dropping rapidly due to the poison. Base Saiyans are just stronger than Good Boo, which shouldn't be of any surprise since Base Vegeta tanked SSJ3 Gotenks.

This chain looks good to me:


SSJ Goku > SSJ Gohan >>>>>> Base Goku > Base Gohan >= Lavender >>> SSJ3 Gotenks >>> Good Boo > Basil (Drugs) = Majin Vegeta > SPC > Basil


I'll hold off on Bergamo until the episode airs.

[ZombieVito]

Is Gohan near Buu's strength? He pretty much kicked Lavender's arse, having been poisoned with loads of poison to the point most of his body was covered and tbh that draw was bs.

Super Saiyan Gohan is obviously way stronger but his base could be under Boo or not.

We need more fights lol.

[LowRyder2005]

As far as I'm concerned they made it pretty apparent for Lavenda to be weaker than Basil even without the drug on.
As predicted, furthermore, neither visual feats nor statements suggested he was dozens of times stronger than the younger brother either. Everything made him look like the standard "cheap" fighter who needed to rely on tricks to get an edge.

Let's wait to judge Bergamo's strength. Goku does go Super Saiyan, but size may be a factor here.

[ChiefWamsutta]

We already know the answer to the second one, if Goku was a 6 to Beerus' 10 then SSBlue Goku and Vegeta would have surpassed him by now, so that's definitely changed.

I should rephrase and request that we ask why there was blue aura in F. Trunks' SSRage form.

Or we ask if Frost was around Namek Frieza during the U6-U7 Tournament.

[Bullza]

Lavender was fighting toe to toe with Super Saiyan Gohan there for a moment. The poison was affecting his health but I don't know about his power.

It shouldn't really matter. The three brothers aren't going to vary in strenght that drastically. For one to be below Buu even when he was powered up and then another to force a supposed God level Base Goku to transform seems so unlikely.

This episode made Buu look stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan. Unless the poison was reducing his strenght by an enormous amount or Lavender happened to be many food stronger than Basil then I'd say Buu > SSJ Gohan just like it used to be (or always was).

[LowRyder2005]

We also know that:

* Bergamo is the strongest of the three brothers (NEP).
* Goku starts fighting him in base, then goes Super Saiyan (or... well, vice versa).

[TheUltimateNinja]

We already know the answer to the second one, if Goku was a 6 to Beerus' 10 then SSBlue Goku and Vegeta would have surpassed him by now, so that's definitely changed.

I should rephrase and request that we ask why there was blue aura in F. Trunks' SSRage form.

Or we ask if Frost was around Namek Frieza during the U6-U7 Tournament.

SSRage is most likely a Toei thing, I don't think we'll see it in the manga.

Frost is definitely stronger than Namek Freeza, U6 arc Base Goku should be considerably stronger than Namek Freeza.

We should also ask him if SSRose has the same multiplier as SSBlue.

[Bullza]

Base Saiyans are just stronger than Good Boo, which shouldn't be of any surprise since Base Vegeta tanked SSJ3 Gotenks.

But that would also make Piccolo above Good Buu and they all but say that he wasn't. Ignoring Super Saiyan for now it could go like this and still work.

Good Buu > Buff Basil > Base Gohan = Piccolo > Lavender = Basil

Of course that could also make Base Goku below Good Buu which would be the retcon otherwise Lavender and Bergamo are vastly above SSJ3 Gotenks and Basil is just a chump in comparison which didn't seem to be the implication.

[DragonHermit]

This is hilarious. A year and half ago, basically when Super started, I made a shitty quality video called "Discussion: Which of the 12 Universes is the strongest one?" with Text-to-Audio software (didn't have mic), debating which Universes are the strongest.

I pretty much called it that Universe 7 would be amongst the weakest universes (3:33). I also predicted a king of all 12 universes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcVAJrUauI0

[ChiefWamsutta]

We already know the answer to the second one, if Goku was a 6 to Beerus' 10 then SSBlue Goku and Vegeta would have surpassed him by now, so that's definitely changed.

I should rephrase and request that we ask why there was blue aura in F. Trunks' SSRage form.

Or we ask if Frost was around Namek Frieza during the U6-U7 Tournament.

SSRage is most likely a Toei thing, I don't think we'll see it in the manga.

Frost is definitely stronger than Namek Freeza, U6 arc Base Goku should be considerably stronger than Namek Freeza.

We should also ask him if SSRose has the same multiplier as SSBlue.

I still can't fucking figure out if Base Goku is above SSGod Goku, only around SS Vegito Buu Saga, or only above SS3 Gotenks.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I should rephrase and request that we ask why there was blue aura in F. Trunks' SSRage form.

Or we ask if Frost was around Namek Frieza during the U6-U7 Tournament.

SSRage is most likely a Toei thing, I don't think we'll see it in the manga.

Frost is definitely stronger than Namek Freeza, U6 arc Base Goku should be considerably stronger than Namek Freeza.

We should also ask him if SSRose has the same multiplier as SSBlue.

I still can't fucking figure out if Base Goku is above SSGod Goku, only around SS Vegito Buu Saga, or only above SS3 Gotenks.

In the manga he hasn't shown much growth so at most I'd expect him to be 2-3x stronger than he was in the Buu Arc, though this arc may raise his power massively.

I don't think Toyo could give us answers about the anime's power scale.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Super logic does whatever it wants

What, and pre-Super Dragon Ball followed a strict, consistent set of rules?

Yeah, I am starting to feel that Goku's skill and instincts allowed him to counter Hit.

Isn't that what he said in the fight itself?
Not everything has to be "You must have X power level to ignore Y effect".

Imagine if a future episode "confirms" Tien is stronger than Krillin. I know a certain user on here who'd flip shit about that

Wasn't it Toriyama who said that Krillin was the strongest human? And Krillin who recently got a two-parter based around his training? I'd be shocked if Tenshinhan was stronger at this point.

Namek Freeza > BoG Goku.

...
Am I the only one who expects people to explain why they think what they think? I mean, I'm mostly reading this thread to see the logic people use to estimate relative power levels.

Just wanted to let everyone know: I found out Toyotaro is going to make an appearance, this May, at the yearly Comicon in Naples (yup, that's where I happen to live).
In short, if I happen to find him and there's a meet and greet or something, I'm most definitely gonna try and ask him about where Base and Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta currently stand in power according to him compared to their old manga selves.

If you do manage to get an interview, ask about the multipliers of SSGod and SSBlue as well.

Or we ask if Frost was around Namek Frieza during the U6-U7 Tournament.

Predicted answer: "Why do people keep asking me this stuff? I dunno, I guess [something vague]"

I should rephrase and request that we ask why there was blue aura in F. Trunks' SSRage form.

Predicted answer: "Probably because it looked cool? I'd have to ask Toriyama."

I wonder if this arc will confirm the 2 base theory,

It already has for me.

As someone who doesn't really get the two-base theory, I'd love to hear your logic.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Namek Freeza > BoG Goku.

...
Am I the only one who expects people to explain why they think what they think? I mean, I'm mostly reading this thread to see the logic people use to estimate relative power levels.

Beerus said Base Goku can't beat Namek Freeza.

Just wanted to let everyone know: I found out Toyotaro is going to make an appearance, this May, at the yearly Comicon in Naples (yup, that's where I happen to live).
In short, if I happen to find him and there's a meet and greet or something, I'm most definitely gonna try and ask him about where Base and Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta currently stand in power according to him compared to their old manga selves.

If you do manage to get an interview, ask about the multipliers of SSGod and SSBlue as well.

Or we ask if Frost was around Namek Frieza during the U6-U7 Tournament.

Predicted answer: "Why do people keep asking me this stuff? I dunno, I guess [something vague]"

Maybe from Toriyama, but I seriously doubt Toyo would give such an answer.

I wonder if this arc will confirm the 2 base theory,

It already has for me.

As someone who doesn't really get the two-base theory, I'd love to hear your logic.

Base Goku outclassed Final Form Freeza who was already far above SSJ Gohan in his first form, probably Ultimate Gohan level at least.

Now Gohan is almost even with Goku in both base and SSJ, and judging by his performance here his SSJ isn't that much stronger than Fat Buu, poison notwithstanding.

So what this suggests is Goku has a God level base and a normal base which he can switch between.

[HeroR]

New episode....retcon is looking all but confirmed.

There's a lot of ways you can look at this episode. If we assume Lavender was roughly as strong as Basil and thats before he took the drug then Super Saiyan Gohan who was stronger but not enormously so looks to be weaker than Good Buu as he was in the Buu saga.

That would however mean that Piccolo was surely nerfed.

In the preview for the next episode Goku needs to use Super Saiyan against him and again we'd likely assume that Bergamo was roughly as strong as the other two. Otherwise it means Basil was about as strong as a Super Saiyan 2 but then both of his brothers are like a few dozen times the strength of Super Saiyan God or even just a few dozen times as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and nobody would believe that.

So yeah I'd say there was a retcon.

I don't see how this was a retcon considering that Gohan was doing better against Lavender than Buu did against Basil before he got serious. Even then, Buu got ahead thanks to his regeneration. Finally, we don't know how Lavender and Basil's power compared since they can't be sense.

I'd personally say base Gohan and Lavenda are about even with the edge to Gohan.

As a SS Gohan is much stronger but he played right into Lavenda's hands using it.

So despite the power difference they break even with a light edge to Gohan.

Gohan's power didn't start to really drop until bit later. Before then, Lavenda was able to keep up and wasn't overwhelmed. This wasn't like Goku vs. Android 19.

[Noah]

So how strong is Lavenda supposed to be? He was even with Base Gohan in the beginning and SSJ Gohan later as he supressed in some point or is Gohan power level screwed? I don't believe in a 50x multiplier for him though

[HeroR]

Base Saiyans are just stronger than Good Boo, which shouldn't be of any surprise since Base Vegeta tanked SSJ3 Gotenks.

But that would also make Piccolo above Good Buu and they all but say that he wasn't. Ignoring Super Saiyan for now it could go like this and still work.

Good Buu > Buff Basil > Base Gohan = Piccolo > Lavender = Basil

Of course that could also make Base Goku below Good Buu which would be the retcon otherwise Lavender and Bergamo are vastly above SSJ3 Gotenks and Basil is just a chump in comparison which didn't seem to be the implication.

Buu mostly had the edge over Basil thanks to his body type, not just raw strength where Basil actually overwhelmed Buu at several points.

[Animelover5487]

Base Saiyans are just stronger than Good Boo, which shouldn't be of any surprise since Base Vegeta tanked SSJ3 Gotenks.

But that would also make Piccolo above Good Buu and they all but say that he wasn't. Ignoring Super Saiyan for now it could go like this and still work.

Good Buu > Buff Basil > Base Gohan = Piccolo > Lavender = Basil

Of course that could also make Base Goku below Good Buu which would be the retcon otherwise Lavender and Bergamo are vastly above SSJ3 Gotenks and Basil is just a chump in comparison which didn't seem to be the implication.

Base Saiyans crush Piccolo. Piccolo only did as well as he did because Frost lost a ton of stamina from the Goku beatdown and because of Piccolo's crafty fighting skills which he all but admitted was the reason Frost was losing. Base Vegeta was stronger than Fatigued Frost too, Vegeta turned into a Super Saiyan to one-shot him before he can pull out his poison needle.

Lavender isn't anywhere near the Super Saiyans, and is probably even weaker than the Base Saiyans since Base Gohan had the upper-hand in their fight prior to the poison. As we have seen from Frost defeating SSJ Goku despite being considerably weaker, poison can be REALLY effective, especially when fighting a Super Saiyan as this episode confirmed.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I agree with the idea that Lavender and Basil are around the same level. There is no way Basil is below Buu and Lavender is higher. They gotta be around Android or Buu Saga tiers.