I find Goku to be the worst character in this show

[Kanassa]

Are you actually insane? Stuff like that hardly ever happens and when it does, it's frowned upon because NO ONE COULD ROOT FOR SUCH AN IRREDEEMABLE PERSON

Yes, people can. If a character is entertaining and interesting enough, they can get people to root for them despite their deplorable morals.

No. You can't. You can like the character. Joker and Yoshikage Kira come to mind, but the story doesn't expect you to root for them to win. You don't root for the Joker, you root for Batman. You don't root for Kira, you root for Josuke. Even Death Note which had a deplorable as fuck protagonist didn't actually expect you to root for him. Even though Light was the focus, the ones you were really led to root for were Light and Mello.

Yes, you can. Character like the Joker and Light are the kind that can make you root for them because they're interesting and entertaining enough that you'd want to see what they do next, I would love a well written story with Joker as the protagonist, just to see how crazy he goes when the narrative is so much more heavily focused on him. To root for a character, it is not necessary for their morals to align with the audience.

[MathSSJ]

Are you actually insane? Stuff like that hardly ever happens and when it does, it's frowned upon because NO ONE COULD ROOT FOR SUCH AN IRREDEEMABLE PERSON

Yes, people can. If a character is entertaining and interesting enough, they can get people to root for them despite their deplorable morals.

No. You can't. You can like the character. Joker and Yoshikage Kira come to mind, but the story doesn't expect you to root for them to win. You don't root for the Joker, you root for Batman. You don't root for Kira, you root for Josuke. Even Death Note which had a deplorable as fuck protagonist didn't actually expect you to root for him. Even though Light was the focus, the ones you were really led to root for were Light and Mello.

Dude, this is fiction, why couldn't someone root for an irredeemable monster if they want to? If a story wants you to root for a bastard, it's your choice as the reader/viewer to do so, don't impose what can or can't be done on others.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Yes, people can. If a character is entertaining and interesting enough, they can get people to root for them despite their deplorable morals.

No. You can't. You can like the character. Joker and Yoshikage Kira come to mind, but the story doesn't expect you to root for them to win. You don't root for the Joker, you root for Batman. You don't root for Kira, you root for Josuke. Even Death Note which had a deplorable as fuck protagonist didn't actually expect you to root for him. Even though Light was the focus, the ones you were really led to root for were Light and Mello.

Dude, this is fiction, why couldn't someone root for an irredeemable monster if they want to? If a story wants you to root for a bastard, it's your choice as the reader/viewer to do so, don't impose what can or can't be done on others.

In Code Geass I was definitely rooting for Lelouch despite his brutal ways.

[Kagari]

I actually really liked Goku in episode 80. He felt a bit like the Goku we saw in Z who was proud and encouraging his son. It's something I've been wanting to see return to Super for a while now, and I'm glad it's here.

[TekTheNinja]

Yes, people can. If a character is entertaining and interesting enough, they can get people to root for them despite their deplorable morals.

No. You can't. You can like the character. Joker and Yoshikage Kira come to mind, but the story doesn't expect you to root for them to win. You don't root for the Joker, you root for Batman. You don't root for Kira, you root for Josuke. Even Death Note which had a deplorable as fuck protagonist didn't actually expect you to root for him. Even though Light was the focus, the ones you were really led to root for were Light and Mello.

Dude, this is fiction, why couldn't someone root for an irredeemable monster if they want to? If a story wants you to root for a bastard, it's your choice as the reader/viewer to do so, don't impose what can or can't be done on others.

You can if you want to I guess. I mean It's pretty fucking weird and kinda fucked up to be like, "I hope Calvin Candy (Django Unchained) puts all the blacks into slavery" or "I hope that guy from The Last House on The Left rapes everyone!" but I GUESS you can. The problem is it's a matter of story framing. A story should not be framed for you to root for an unlikable character. That's simply bad writing. If the Wizard of Oz was framed to make you root for the wicked witch of the west to kill Dorothy, it wouldn't be nearly as famous.

[TheUltimateNinja]

No. You can't. You can like the character. Joker and Yoshikage Kira come to mind, but the story doesn't expect you to root for them to win. You don't root for the Joker, you root for Batman. You don't root for Kira, you root for Josuke. Even Death Note which had a deplorable as fuck protagonist didn't actually expect you to root for him. Even though Light was the focus, the ones you were really led to root for were Light and Mello.

Dude, this is fiction, why couldn't someone root for an irredeemable monster if they want to? If a story wants you to root for a bastard, it's your choice as the reader/viewer to do so, don't impose what can or can't be done on others.

You can if you want to I guess. I mean It's pretty fucking weird to be like, "I hope Calvin Candy (Django Unchained) puts all the blacks into slavery" but I GUESS you can. The problem is it's a matter of story framing. A story should not be framed for you to root for an unlikable character. That's simply bad writing. If the Wizard of Oz was framed to make you root for the wicked witch of the west to kill Dorothy, it wouldn't be nearly as famous.

Whether or not a character is likable is subjective. I find Light & Lelouch likable despite the atrocities they've committed.

[TekTheNinja]

Dude, this is fiction, why couldn't someone root for an irredeemable monster if they want to? If a story wants you to root for a bastard, it's your choice as the reader/viewer to do so, don't impose what can or can't be done on others.

You can if you want to I guess. I mean It's pretty fucking weird to be like, "I hope Calvin Candy (Django Unchained) puts all the blacks into slavery" but I GUESS you can. The problem is it's a matter of story framing. A story should not be framed for you to root for an unlikable character. That's simply bad writing. If the Wizard of Oz was framed to make you root for the wicked witch of the west to kill Dorothy, it wouldn't be nearly as famous.

Whether or not a character is likable is subjective. I find Light & Lelouch likable despite the atrocities they've committed.

Those are sort of debatable I GUESS even though I find it absolutely insane to root for them honestly, like seriously how do you root for those manipulative atrocious fucks? Why do you want them to succeed? But that's irrelevant because hose show framed them as in the wrong. DBS frames Goku as in the right. It's framing that separates good writing from god awful writing.

[Kanassa]

The problem is it's a matter of story framing. A story should not be framed for you to root for an unlikable character.

But my point is that a likeable character doesn't have to be a good person. THe Joker is likeable and he's one of the most morally depraved fictional characters in existence.

You can if you want to I guess. I mean It's pretty fucking weird to be like, "I hope Calvin Candy (Django Unchained) puts all the blacks into slavery" but I GUESS you can. The problem is it's a matter of story framing. A story should not be framed for you to root for an unlikable character. That's simply bad writing. If the Wizard of Oz was framed to make you root for the wicked witch of the west to kill Dorothy, it wouldn't be nearly as famous.

Whether or not a character is likable is subjective. I find Light & Lelouch likable despite the atrocities they've committed.

Those are sort of debatable I GUESS even though I find it absolutely insane to root for them honestly, like seriously how do you root for those manipulative atrocious fucks? Why do you want them to succeed? But that's irrelevant because hose show framed them as in the wrong. DBS frames Goku as in the right. It's framing that separates good writing from god awful writing.

Because they're interesting and entertaining. It's not as complicated as you're making it out to be.

[MathSSJ]

No. You can't. You can like the character. Joker and Yoshikage Kira come to mind, but the story doesn't expect you to root for them to win. You don't root for the Joker, you root for Batman. You don't root for Kira, you root for Josuke. Even Death Note which had a deplorable as fuck protagonist didn't actually expect you to root for him. Even though Light was the focus, the ones you were really led to root for were Light and Mello.

Dude, this is fiction, why couldn't someone root for an irredeemable monster if they want to? If a story wants you to root for a bastard, it's your choice as the reader/viewer to do so, don't impose what can or can't be done on others.

You can if you want to I guess. I mean It's pretty fucking weird to be like, "I hope Calvin Candy (Django Unchained) puts all the blacks into slavery" but I GUESS you can. The problem is it's a matter of story framing. A story should not be framed for you to root for an unlikable character. That's simply bad writing. If the Wizard of Oz was framed to make you root for the wicked witch of the west to kill Dorothy, it wouldn't be nearly as famous.

You are separating character from context just to have a blank statement like that.

Lemme put this here again: This is fiction. Your enjoyment of it has no barring on you as a person. A story absolutely can portray a bad person in a way that makes us want to root for him. Some of Goku's actions in the original run have been truly awful, yet all that makes him a far more interesting character for me and I'll gladly root for him to win. A story framing an unlikeable character as someone you should root for is absolutely not bad writing, it's just different from the standard. Following concessions of how storytelling should go only leads to sterile and overly safe media, and we absolutely don't need any more of that.

[TheUltimateNinja]

You can if you want to I guess. I mean It's pretty fucking weird to be like, "I hope Calvin Candy (Django Unchained) puts all the blacks into slavery" but I GUESS you can. The problem is it's a matter of story framing. A story should not be framed for you to root for an unlikable character. That's simply bad writing. If the Wizard of Oz was framed to make you root for the wicked witch of the west to kill Dorothy, it wouldn't be nearly as famous.

Whether or not a character is likable is subjective. I find Light & Lelouch likable despite the atrocities they've committed.

Those are sort of debatable I GUESS even though I find it absolutely insane to root for them honestly, like seriously how do you root for those manipulative atrocious fucks? Why do you want them to succeed? But that's irrelevant because hose show framed them as in the wrong. DBS frames Goku as in the right. It's framing that separates good writing from god awful writing.

It's because you understand their intentions and can somewhat relate. If Zamasu was the protagonist of a show and was much more fleshed out and well written I could see myself rooting for him as well. Unlike the real world atrocities in fiction have no consequences.

[Miracles]

He's a seriously unlikeable character tbh. Selfish, childish and idiotic. He's always been like this abandoning his family to train and risking the world for a fight. It's not the first time he's done this.

Let's Vegeta (who tried to blow up earth) live, let's freeza (mass genocidal tyrant) live and stands back to see how mirai trunks does against him because he's curious, gives cell (biomech murderer) a senzu bean and throws his pacifist son into the fight, threatens supreme kai's life because he wants to fight knowing Buu will be revived because of it and doesn't waste Buu right away since he had SSJ3 hidden in his ass the whole arc. I'm sure I'm missing a few and that just in Z.

Horrible character. Saving the world just happens to be a coincidence it seems. Honestly should have stayed dead. I'm glad everyones finally seeing how shit a character he is. It's about damn time

Actually no...All of this is what makes Goku a great character.
Not a typical save the day guy, he is actually gonna make sure he gets lulz out of it now and later.

[TekTheNinja]

Dude, this is fiction, why couldn't someone root for an irredeemable monster if they want to? If a story wants you to root for a bastard, it's your choice as the reader/viewer to do so, don't impose what can or can't be done on others.

You can if you want to I guess. I mean It's pretty fucking weird to be like, "I hope Calvin Candy (Django Unchained) puts all the blacks into slavery" but I GUESS you can. The problem is it's a matter of story framing. A story should not be framed for you to root for an unlikable character. That's simply bad writing. If the Wizard of Oz was framed to make you root for the wicked witch of the west to kill Dorothy, it wouldn't be nearly as famous.

You are separating character from context just to have a blank statement like that.

Lemme put this here again: This is fiction. Your enjoyment of it has no barring on you as a person. A story absolutely can portray a bad person in a way that makes us want to root for him. Some of Goku's actions in the original run have been truly awful, yet all that makes him a far more interesting character for me and I'll gladly root for him to win. A story framing an unlikeable character as someone you should root for is absolutely not bad writing, it's just different from the standard. Following concessions of how storytelling should go only leads to sterile and overly safe media, and we absolutely don't need any more of that.

Understanding a vilain as a character and their motivations and all is awesome, but you should never root for them. I think you're confusing understanding a character with rooting for them to win. If Zamasu was the main character you would root for him? No you wouldn't. you're lying to yourself. Super Eyepatch Wolf has this fantastic video right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqMxH0atn18 It's about how to write a villain you can relate to, yet someone you still want to lose in the end because they're fucking insane. I refuse to believe you would actually be like, "Yeah, go Zamas! Kill all the puny mortals!" Lelouch is a deep understandable character too, but you're still supposed to want them to lose and that's exactly how it's framed in the show. DBS on the other hand is like, "Oh yeah, here's an asshole who if fine with several universes being destroyed. Ain't he such a great hero?" And don't even go there with the Goku's not supposed to be a hero bullshit just because he's not a "righteous" hero. Goku is still supposed to be and is still framed as a hero unlike any other protagonist mentioned thus far. Name any protagonist who's an irredeemable fuck framed as a hero and he's probably a garbage character.

Edit: This is meant also as a response to TheUltimateNinja, but I just didn't quote him.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Gohan took unnecessary risks, there is too much at stake. Gohan should think less in building and proving and more in his family and whole universe. He can train and build after the match. The wise move would have been to take the senzu bean and avoid the poison from then. Looking how good he did without his eyes and poison weakening him from the inside, he should have done that easily once cured.

They said they wouldn't kill them in the exhibition match. It was to show the Future Zeno was a tournament was. The only stakes was not impressing them.
Gohan didn't take the bean because he wanted to show everyone what he trained for. Again, he could have taken the bean and still be poisoned again anyway and even if that didn't happen, if he won with ease, he wouldn't have learned anything or how strong he would need to be for the actual tournament. The bigger point of the episode was to grow Gohan's fighting senses. Goku doing something like this wouldn't have helped him at all but only exploit his cockiness.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Understanding a vilain as a character and their motivations and all is awesome, but you should never root for them. I think you're confusing understanding a character with rooting for them to win. If Zamasu was the main character you would root for him? No you wouldn't. you're lying to yourself. Super Eyepatch Wolf has this fantastic video right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqMxH0atn18 It's about how to write a villain you can relate to, yet someone you still want to lose in the end because they're fucking insane. I refuse to believe you would actually be like, "Yeah, go Zamas! Kill all the puny mortals!" Lelouch is a deep understandable character too, but you're still supposed to want them to lose and that's exactly how it's framed in the show. DBS on the other hand is like, "Oh yeah, here's an asshole who if fine with several universes being destroyed. Ain't he such a great hero?" And don't even go there with the Goku's not supposed to be a hero bullshit just because he's not a "righteous" hero. Goku is still supposed to be and is still framed as a hero unlike any other protagonist mentioned thus far. Name any protagonist who's an irredeemable fuck framed as a hero and he's probably a garbage character.

Edit: This is meant also as a response to TheUltimateNinja, but I just didn't quote him.

I legitimately did want Kira and Lelouch to win, I thought it was total bullshit how Light got screwed by Mikami in the end. And it's certainly possible to root for Zamasu under the right setting. It would be quite thrilling to watch him try to fulfill his goal while at the same time evading the Gods and Zeno. He's not really all that likable in the series, but if he had Black's personality from the start and was the protagonist of a well written anime he would certainly be a fun character to root for.

[MathSSJ]

You can if you want to I guess. I mean It's pretty fucking weird to be like, "I hope Calvin Candy (Django Unchained) puts all the blacks into slavery" but I GUESS you can. The problem is it's a matter of story framing. A story should not be framed for you to root for an unlikable character. That's simply bad writing. If the Wizard of Oz was framed to make you root for the wicked witch of the west to kill Dorothy, it wouldn't be nearly as famous.

You are separating character from context just to have a blank statement like that.

Lemme put this here again: This is fiction. Your enjoyment of it has no barring on you as a person. A story absolutely can portray a bad person in a way that makes us want to root for him. Some of Goku's actions in the original run have been truly awful, yet all that makes him a far more interesting character for me and I'll gladly root for him to win. A story framing an unlikeable character as someone you should root for is absolutely not bad writing, it's just different from the standard. Following concessions of how storytelling should go only leads to sterile and overly safe media, and we absolutely don't need any more of that.

Understanding a vilain as a character and their motivations and all is awesome, but you should never root for them. I think you're confusing understanding a character with rooting for them to win. If Zamasu was the main character you would root for him? No you wouldn't. you're lying to yourself. Super Eyepatch Wolf has this fantastic video right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqMxH0atn18 It's about how to write a villain you can relate to, yet someone you still want to lose in the end because they're fucking insane. I refuse to believe you would actually be like, "Yeah, go Zamas! Kill all the puny mortals!" Lelouch is a deep understandable character too, but you're still supposed to want them to lose and that's exactly how it's framed in the show. DBS on the other hand is like, "Oh yeah, here's an asshole who if fine with several universes being destroyed. Ain't he such a great hero?" And don't even go there with the Goku's not supposed to be a hero bullshit just because he's not a "righteous" hero. Goku is still supposed to be and is still framed as a hero unlike any other protagonist mentioned thus far. Name any protagonist who's an irredeemable fuck framed as a hero and he's probably a garbage character.

Edit: This is meant also as a response to TheUltimateNinja, but I just didn't quote him.

I haven't said a thing about villains. This topic is not about villains nor do I care to discuss it.

Here is what you are doing: You are homogenizing storytelling. You are imposing that media should only be structured in one way because of some arbitrary definition of good writing. That's a ludicrous line of thought at best.

I'm not supposed to do anything because it's a fucking cartoon and I know better to separate reality from it. How is that so hard to understand?

Goku's actions ever since the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai are not those of a straight up hero in any way, shape or form, and the story, even to this day, never shied away from literally hammering in our faces what they are.

[saunasolmu]

So Goku went from involuntary dooming quadzillions to involuntary saving quadzillions of lives just like that

[Basako]

Gohan took unnecessary risks, there is too much at stake. Gohan should think less in building and proving and more in his family and whole universe. He can train and build after the match. The wise move would have been to take the senzu bean and avoid the poison from then. Looking how good he did without his eyes and poison weakening him from the inside, he should have done that easily once cured.

They said they wouldn't kill them in the exhibition match. It was to show the Future Zeno was a tournament was. The only stakes was not impressing them.
Gohan didn't take the bean because he wanted to show everyone what he trained for. Again, he could have taken the bean and still be poisoned again anyway and even if that didn't happen, if he won with ease, he wouldn't have learned anything or how strong he would need to be for the actual tournament. The bigger point of the episode was to grow Gohan's fighting senses. Goku doing something like this wouldn't have helped him at all but only exploit his cockiness.

Yeah, but for Goku it didn't matter that Zeno was such an unpredictable being, so why not the same for others? Not in vain the Kaio of universe 9 asks if in this preliminary match the loosing universe is going to be erased, which the priest answers no. Gohan took unnecessary risks, when there is so much at stake and with such an unnpredictable omnigod.

[SansrivaaL]

No. You can't. You can like the character. Joker and Yoshikage Kira come to mind, but the story doesn't expect you to root for them to win. You don't root for the Joker, you root for Batman. You don't root for Kira, you root for Josuke. Even Death Note which had a deplorable as fuck protagonist didn't actually expect you to root for him. Even though Light was the focus, the ones you were really led to root for were Light and Mello.

Dude, this is fiction, why couldn't someone root for an irredeemable monster if they want to? If a story wants you to root for a bastard, it's your choice as the reader/viewer to do so, don't impose what can or can't be done on others.

In Code Geass I was definitely rooting for Lelouch despite his brutal ways.

In Death Note I was fcking behind Kira=Light the whole freaking time, pissed me off when Neir won in the end, woulda been happy with Ryuzaki but still I woulda been happy with Light being the winner in the end. Same with Lelouch.
Just because main characters has a twisted morals going on in their knockers, doesnt mean you wont root for them, like they said, this is fiction. Unless you're telling me I'm a psychopath for playing GTA and I kill innocent bystandards there just for lols and crush them police.

People may not believe this, but I was jumping for joy when Black was whoopin all their asses, the only time I wanted Goku to kick his mf ass was when he sadistically told Goku how he fcked his other timeline family and self, he deserved that, but after that I was rooting for the sadistic bastard the whole time, was pissed when he merged with Zamasu.

[Akyon]

The problem is it's a matter of story framing. A story should not be framed for you to root for an unlikable character.

But my point is that a likeable character doesn't have to be a good person. THe Joker is likeable and he's one of the most morally depraved fictional characters in existence.

In all fairness the Joker is SUPPOSED to be an antagonist so him doing horrific things is part of his charm as an antagonist. If Batman started being doing equally horrific things I don't think we could get behind him as the heroic protagonist.

Light and L aren't total Black and White characters in regards to morality either. Light's initial intentions is something a lot of people agree with regarding punishing criminals for their crimes, but he quickly falls off the path to heroism as early as when he kills Raye Penber. L meanwhile is willing to sacrifice a life or two in order to stop Kira and test a theory.
Neither are pure, but the vast majority of readers end up siding with the one whose viewpoints they can understand best.

----------------------------
My two cents on Goku as a character for what it's worth;

Overall Goku seems like the most alien character on the show with his personality which considering he was raised by humans is frankly bizarre. Vegeta's adapted to human ideals by Super's run better than Goku has and Vegeta was raised to be a savage killer.

Goku also seems kind of inconsistant as a character; he tries to do the right thing and there's times where he shows genuine concern and support for those around him(encouraging Krillin and Gohan recently spring to mind) but he's equally okay with risking the universe's very existence and thus those same people's lives on being able to counter Beerus' punches in the very first arc of Super.
The Dragonballs being a magic fix all could be part of the reason to blame for such a blase attitude, but in-universe everyone bar Goku seems rather concerned about NOT letting everyone die. Only Goku has this weird "ah, who cares?" attitude regarding mortality despite the majority of the cast having also died in the past and knowing in their world death is not permenant.

Goku as a character is entertaining to watch because his constant universe endangering pushes the plot forward. Doesn't neccesarily make him a likable, relatable or even well written protagonist. More like a plot tool. "This bad thing needs to happen to get the arc started. Let's have Goku accidentally cause it through his desire to fight strong opponents again."

[HeroR]

It's because you understand their intentions and can somewhat relate. If Zamasu was the protagonist of a show and was much more fleshed out and well written I could see myself rooting for him as well. Unlike the real world atrocities in fiction have no consequences.

Personally, I rooting for Black at several points despite him being a crazy mass murderer. Just like I rooted for Zarbon when he kicked Vegeta's smug butt into the ground. I also enjoyed Buu, in all forms, just destroying and eating people.

In Attack on Titans, I've rooting for Titans several times over the humans, although

Whether or not a character is likable is subjective. I find Light & Lelouch likable despite the atrocities they've committed.

I cannot stand Light. I wanted him to go down since Episode 1. I really hate the self-righteous type, good or bad. This may sound odd after I said I loved rooting for Black, but Black comes off as someone who put his sadistic nature before his 'righteous' view. He also didn't keep spewing about how he was right unlike the other Zamasus, who I really didn't like for that reason and I enjoyed Trunks or anyone punching him in the face.