Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I have noticed that when Toriyama introduces concepts that radically change the original franchise, most people chuckle and respond in a manner that can be generally interpreted as "Heh, heh, silly Toriyama. LOL".

When George Lucas does the same thing, however, everyone yells out "YOU GREEDY, FAT S.O.B.!!!!" and hate on him with a passion.

the star wars Fandom is pretty toxic at times.

What George did is change everything AND make sure that no one had access to the original material just because he didn't like it anymore. Toriyama has never done that and never will.

Toriyama wasn't satisfied with the RRA arc but you don't see him forcing the companies involved wih the franchise to call back every copy of the anime and manga that had it so he could release an updated version that didn't include it.

Then you have Lucas blaming fans for him leaving the franchise, saying that they're too hard on him. really ? I'm not a star wars fans so I'm sure there are others here who know more about this than I do but based on the two examples above, it seems like he's just a cry baby who takes his ball home the second someone questions him. I've read a lot of Toriyama interviews and I've never seen him say anything close to that. The reason fans will always respect Toriyama even if they disagree with him is because he never looks down on them. Lucas on the other hand seems to think fans owe him something. With that kind of creator, I'm surprised there are as many Star wars fans as there are.

Most of the changes Lucas did were either innocuous or for the better, sure there are some really questionable choices but a lot of the time they are severely overblown by fans in my opinion. And I am pretty sure he hasn't completely got rid of the original masters, but I do hear they are not in the best of shape. But even then it is most of the fans fault too since a majority of them went out and bought these sets despite being mad and angry at the changes, take Kaboom from here as an example he is not a fan of what Namco/NoA did in DB Fusions and is taking a stand and refusing to buy the game, if he caved then he would be telling them that what they are doing is okay.
Lucas doesn't handle himself well in interviews from what I have seen yes but he has done a lot for the franchise and fans owe him a lot changes or not. It is not a coincidence that he sells the franchise and the first new film is a shameless remake of ANH.

[DBSQA]

Well dragon ball super is pretty popular so I say his more loved than hate.

[nickzambuto]

He along with Dragon Ball as a whole have a bad reputation on the internet from casual dub peasants who still think deebeezee is a vapid superhero show about explosions and punches. People who know what they're talking about have nothing but praise for Toriyama's writing talents. It's no coincidence that he's widely respected in Japan as a talented writer, but in America where we received a bastardized version of the show, people think he's no good.

What really russles my jimmies though are the specific criticisms people have of Toriyama. Deebeezee gets called formulaic, stagnant, every arc is apparently a repeat of the last. People generalize the series into "strong villain appears who is evil for no reason, beats up Goku, Goku trains to get stronger and beats up the villain, rinse repeat." But this annoys me because it's the opposite of the truth. Dragon Ball is one of the most creative, subversive, unpredictable stories I can name.

People yell out that deebeezee has no "character development" and follow it up with "except for Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Mr. Satan, Majin Boo, and Future Trunks." So it has no character development, except for six characters. Okay.

Then that still leaves out Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Kame Sennin, Bulma, and Yamcha because people think the first half of the story is some irrelevant prequel. And we can't leave Goku out of this. One of the most charming, inspiring characters pretty much ever. The embodiment of a thousand years worth of Asian culture and literature. By far the best and most developed character in the series. The damn dirty dub peasants have the audacity to call him a terrible character.

Such a shame.

[sintzu]

People think the first half of the story is some irrelevant prequel.

The companies involved with the franchise also treat it that way.

When the show was released in dragon box and single format in Japan they started with Z.
When they released the full color volumes they started with Z.
When they remastered the show they said it followed Toriyama's vision yet they left out DB.
All the games either just focus on Z and if they do include DB it's a very, very small part of it.

This is all in Japan so you can't say it's a western thing.

[ABED]

Lucas on the other hand seems to think fans owe him something

It's far worse when fans think THEY are owed something. Plenty of times I read and hear statements like, "We made them popular" or "we made them rich" as if they did it out of some act of charity. Both sides benefitted. If anything, it's usually the fans that feel entitled.

[nickzambuto]

People think the first half of the story is some irrelevant prequel.

The companies involved with the franchise also treat it that way.

When the show was released in dragon box and single format in Japan they started with Z.
When they released the full color volumes they started with Z.
When they remastered the show they said it followed Toriyama's vision yet they left out DB.
All the games either just focus on Z and if they do include DB it's a very, very small part of it.

This is all in Japan so you can't say it's a western thing.

Then that's doubly a shame.

[TheUltimateNinja]

People think the first half of the story is some irrelevant prequel.

The companies involved with the franchise also treat it that way.

When the show was released in dragon box and single format in Japan they started with Z.
When they released the full color volumes they started with Z.
When they remastered the show they said it followed Toriyama's vision yet they left out DB.
All the games either just focus on Z and if they do include DB it's a very, very small part of it.

This is all in Japan so you can't say it's a western thing.

Then that's doubly a shame.

The original DB was a lot less fighting oriented for its first half, I can understand their reasoning, not that I agree with it.

[ABED]

It's LESS fighting oriented?

[sintzu]

The original DB was a lot less fighting oriented for its first half, I can understand their reasoning, not that I agree with it.

It's LESS fighting oriented?

The only arc that didn't have fighting was the 1st arc. after that we got 3 tournaments & the king Piccolo arc which all had lots of fighting. the RRA arc was a mixture between adventure and fights and it got a mini torunament at the end so even that had plenty of fights.

The real reason I think they don't use it much is because they don't think a kid Goku centric show is marketable enough. It's a shame they decided to include the 23rd Tenkaichi arc in that cause that had one of the best fights in the franchise (Goku vs Piccolo) and Goku was an adult in it.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The original DB was a lot less fighting oriented for its first half, I can understand their reasoning, not that I agree with it.

It's LESS fighting oriented?

The only arc that didn't have fighting was the 1st arc. after that we got 3 tournaments & the king Piccolo arc which all had lots of fighting. the RRA arc was a mixture between adventure and fights and it got a mini torunament at the end so even that had plenty of fights.

The real reason I think they don't use it much is because they don't think a kid Goku centric show is marketable enough. It's a shame they decided to include the 23rd Tenkaichi arc in that cause that had one of the best fights in the franchise (Goku vs Piccolo) and Goku was an adult in it.

Out of the 3 arcs of the first half of DB, only the 21st Budokai could be considered purely fighting.

And I think the distinction between DB and Z is that in Z space is far more significant whereas in DB all of the threats are Earth based, and Goku was assumed to be an Earthling as well.

[ABED]

Fighting is central to all of those arcs. The action is front and center.

And I think the distinction between DB and Z is that in Z space is far more significant whereas in DB all of the threats are Earth based, and Goku was assumed to be an Earthling as well.

That's an artificial distinction. The Cell arc threats are Earth based, and as we learn later, Piccolo Daimao is from outer space.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Fighting is central to all of those arcs. The action is front and center.

And I think the distinction between DB and Z is that in Z space is far more significant whereas in DB all of the threats are Earth based, and Goku was assumed to be an Earthling as well.

That's an artificial distinction. The Cell arc threats are Earth based, and as we learn later, Piccolo Daimao is from outer space.

We didn't know that he was from outer space back in DB. And Cell was composed of DNA from aliens.

[ABED]

Fighting is central to all of those arcs. The action is front and center.

And I think the distinction between DB and Z is that in Z space is far more significant whereas in DB all of the threats are Earth based, and Goku was assumed to be an Earthling as well.

That's an artificial distinction. The Cell arc threats are Earth based, and as we learn later, Piccolo Daimao is from outer space.

We didn't know that he was from outer space back in DB. And Cell was composed of DNA from aliens.

But put together by an Earthling. The cyborgs were once human or created by Earth technology using Earth resources. The distinction is completely arbitrary between the two series. It's all the same series. What is so different from the terrestrial threats and the alien threats besides the scale?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Fighting is central to all of those arcs. The action is front and center.

That's an artificial distinction. The Cell arc threats are Earth based, and as we learn later, Piccolo Daimao is from outer space.

We didn't know that he was from outer space back in DB. And Cell was composed of DNA from aliens.

But put together by an Earthling. The distinction is completely arbitrary between the two series. It's all the same series.

But there has to be a reason it became DBZ at that specific point. Saying it's all the same series and the distinction is completely arbitrary is like saying the distinction between the middle ages and the present day is totally arbitrary and it's all the same timeline.

Another reason could be that at the end of DB Goku finally achieved his goal of being the strongest in the world and in Z he moved on to trying to become the strongest in the cosmos.

[sintzu]

But there has to be a reason it became DBZ at that specific point.

Toei wanted it to be marketable to new viewers so they thought starting with an episode 1 would be easier to do that than continuing with an episode 154.

The manga never changed names and it went from Piccolo to the Saiyans within a week like the other previous chapters did.

[ABED]

Except there isn't. The change to Z was decided WELL before any subsequent arcs in Z were completed so no one had any idea what sort of threats the heroes would face. It's an arbitrary distinction that far too many people make.

Saying it's all the same series and the distinction is completely arbitrary is like saying the distinction between the middle ages and the present day is totally arbitrary and it's all the same timeline.

That's a COMPLETE stretch. The difference between the two time periods is so vastly different. DB and DBZ aren't vastly different. The biggest difference is scale, but the characters are very much the same. With the Middle Ages to now, we're talking hundreds of years of intellectual development. DBZ picks up rght where DB left off.

Another reason could be that at the end of DB Goku finally achieved his goal of being the strongest in the world and in Z he moved on to trying to become the strongest in the cosmos

That's yet another arbitrary distinction. Goku's goal was always just to be the strongest.

[TheUltimateNinja]

But there has to be a reason it became DBZ at that specific point.

Toei wanted it to be marketable to new viewers so they thought starting with an episode 1 would be easier to do that than continuing with an episode 154.

The manga never changed names and it went from Piccolo to the Saiyans within a week like the other previous chapters did.

But Toriyama himself did come up with the Z moniker, with the reason being that he wanted to end it soon. However that's a pretty boring reason.

[sintzu]

But Toriyama himself did come up with the Z moniker, with the reason being that he wanted to end it soon. However that's a pretty boring reason.

And he said he didn't think it needed a name change but Toei wanted to change it so he gave them that name.

[ABED]

Ninja, you bring up all the threats being alien, but the decision to name the series Z came well before that.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Except there isn't. The change to Z was decided WELL before any subsequent arcs in Z were completed so no one had any idea what sort of threats the heroes would face. It's an arbitrary distinction that far too many people make.

Saying it's all the same series and the distinction is completely arbitrary is like saying the distinction between the middle ages and the present day is totally arbitrary and it's all the same timeline.

That's a COMPLETE stretch. The difference between the two time periods is so vastly different. DB and DBZ aren't vastly different. The biggest difference is scale, but the characters are very much the same. With the Middle Ages to now, we're talking hundreds of years of intellectual development. DBZ picks up rght where DB left off.

Another reason could be that at the end of DB Goku finally achieved his goal of being the strongest in the world and in Z he moved on to trying to become the strongest in the cosmos

That's yet another arbitrary distinction. Goku's goal was always just to be the strongest.

Goku didn't even know of alien life back when DB ended, he'd just won the Tenkaichi Budokai and as far as he was concerned had become the strongest.

Another reason could be that in Z Goku had a wife and child.

Ninja, you bring up all the threats being alien, but the decision to name the series Z came well before that.

Considering Raditz was an alien, I wouldn't say so. Regardless, for the change to happen at that specific point and for modern day companies to deem Z far more marketable than DB, there has to be a difference.