Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by sintzu » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:07 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:I wonder if you can really say that one piece of fiction is objectively better than another, no matter the disparity in quality you personally perceive.
I don't think you can, especially when they're so similar to each other like how DB, Naruto and One Piece are.

You can say one has more going on than the other, one does more with its characters and world than the other but to say one is factually better is going to be very hard cause when it comes to what's good or bad is a matter of opinon.
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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:11 pm

Cipher wrote: Edit -- I mean, even then I'd hesitate to say "objectively," but no one in a real critical setting would ever use that term in the first place. That's an internet thing.
That's what I'm saying, you can make all the arguments in the world in one's favor, and indeed there's a lot more arguments to be made for Shakespeare, but at the end of the day you can't declare one to be objectively superior.

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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by Doctor. » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:14 pm

To clarify, my first (and only?) mention of the word objectively was within quotation marks, precisely to imply the futility of applying such a term to this kind of subject.

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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by Cipher » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:17 pm

I guess I'd just like to clarify as well that I wasn't taking issue with the One Piece vs. Dragon Ball thing because I don't think near-universal standards for successful fiction exist, or don't believe works with different goals can ever be compared, but because I think they both suck in truly unique ways. The ways in which One Piece sucks are just more off-putting to me.

I probably could have saved us all a lot of trouble last page by just saying One Piece's dialogue really chaps my ass.
Last edited by Cipher on Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:21 pm

Now that this appears to be over, I'd say that as far as internet arguments go this was quite civil.

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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by Doctor. » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:23 pm

Cipher wrote:I probably could have saved us all a lot of trouble last page by just saying One Piece's dialogue really chaps my ass.
Nakuhmuh
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Now that this appears to be over, I'd say that as far as internet arguments go this was quite civil.
Now take the same discussion to /a/ and post results.

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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:25 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Cipher wrote:I probably could have saved us all a lot of trouble last page by just saying One Piece's dialogue really chaps my ass.
Nakuhmuh
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Now that this appears to be over, I'd say that as far as internet arguments go this was quite civil.
Now take the same discussion to /a/ and post results.
I already know the answer, I'd get a million posts saying both are trash and Jojo is the only good anime, a couple in favor of One Piece and one or two in favor of DB.

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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by ABED » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:35 pm

I do think there are objective ways to judge art, but there are so many elements and how one weighs their importance is subjective.
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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hate than loved?

Post by Esfír Dedragón » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:39 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
sintzu wrote:
Totamo wrote:the star wars Fandom is pretty toxic at times.
What George did is change everything AND make sure that no one had access to the original material just because he didn't like it anymore. Toriyama has never done that and never will.

Toriyama wasn't satisfied with the RRA arc but you don't see him forcing the companies involved wih the franchise to call back every copy of the anime and manga that had it so he could release an updated version that didn't include it.

Then you have Lucas blaming fans for him leaving the franchise, saying that they're too hard on him. really ? I'm not a star wars fans so I'm sure there are others here who know more about this than I do but based on the two examples above, it seems like he's just a cry baby who takes his ball home the second someone questions him. I've read a lot of Toriyama interviews and I've never seen him say anything close to that. The reason fans will always respect Toriyama even if they disagree with him is because he never looks down on them. Lucas on the other hand seems to think fans owe him something. With that kind of creator, I'm surprised there are as many Star wars fans as there are.
Most of the changes Lucas did were either innocuous or for the better, sure there are some really questionable choices but a lot of the time they are severely overblown by fans in my opinion. And I am pretty sure he hasn't completely got rid of the original masters, but I do hear they are not in the best of shape. But even then it is most of the fans fault too since a majority of them went out and bought these sets despite being mad and angry at the changes, take Kaboom from here as an example he is not a fan of what Namco/NoA did in DB Fusions and is taking a stand and refusing to buy the game, if he caved then he would be telling them that what they are doing is okay.
Lucas doesn't handle himself well in interviews from what I have seen yes but he has done a lot for the franchise and fans owe him a lot changes or not. It is not a coincidence that he sells the franchise and the first new film is a shameless remake of ANH.
I didn't know he banned the original version of Star Wars from the public... Wow, that's really foolish of him.

All this time, I always thought that he was just some guy who over-exaggerated his right to alter what he owned, even if people didn't like it. I always knew, however, that it was very avaricious of him to release and re-release "special editions" of the same movies.
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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hate than loved?

Post by sintzu » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:17 pm

Esfír Dedragón wrote:I didn't know he banned the original version of Star Wars from the public... Wow, that's really foolish of him.

All this time, I always thought that he was just some guy who over-exaggerated his right to alter what he owned, even if people didn't like it.

I always knew, however, that it was very avaricious of him to release and re-release "special editions" of the same movies.
If someone is selling a copy they already have then you can get it that way but in terms of a current release of them, they don't exist and that's the reason.

He did that a lot, even though he was completely against it back in the day.

The problem wasn't just him re-releasing the movies, it was him changing them with each release to the point where major plot points were changed. Did you ever hear "han shot first ?" in the original, he shot someone before that someone might've shot him but in the rerelease, that someone shots first so that it looks like han was defending himself.
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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hate than loved?

Post by Esfír Dedragón » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:25 pm

sintzu wrote:
Esfír Dedragón wrote:I didn't know he banned the original version of Star Wars from the public... Wow, that's really foolish of him.

All this time, I always thought that he was just some guy who over-exaggerated his right to alter what he owned, even if people didn't like it.

I always knew, however, that it was very avaricious of him to release and re-release "special editions" of the same movies.
If someone is selling a copy they already have then you can get it that way but in terms of a current release of them, they don't exist and that's the reason.

He did that a lot, even though he was completely against it back in the day.

The problem wasn't just him re-releasing the movies, it was him changing them with each release to the point where major plot points were changed. Did you ever hear "han shot first ?" in the original, he shot someone before that someone might've shot him but in the rerelease, that someone shots first so that it looks like han was defending himself.
I know a childhood friend that has the original VHS tapes of the original trilogy. I don't think he knows how valuable they are right now...

I am aware of the Han Shot First! scene. I was lucky enough to find it on YouTube but I don't know if it still exists. Yeah, I know about the changes. Most are pretty bad from what I've heard and saw.
DRAGON BALL IS THE KING OF (Fighting) ANIME!!!!!!! In my opinion, at least... :think:

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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by Faustus » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:31 am

Sorry to dredge this up but:
Quality and entertainment are different concepts and they can and should be seperated.
To be sure, but I'd contend in return that whatever quality the likes of One Piece has to offer beyond joyous entertainment will not in practice prove all that stimulating (intellectually or otherwise) to your average adult, not least to one already immersed in a wealth of more enriching fiction out there (Oda's ardent speeches on friendship and ambition and hamhandedly thematic set-pieces are not very likely to move a regular consumer of Dickens novels).

My two cents on evaluating works of art: If Dragon Ball moves you better, resonates with you better, commands more power for you, then should it ultimately matter that One Piece is undeniably the more ambitious, the more complex, the more deliberately plotted, the more tightly controlled? Now of course tight control, careful plotting, etc. and all manner of the qualities OP flexes in higher proportion than DB are generally (and rightly) held as a few of the paramount criteria involved in assessing the merit of a work of art. But if the total effect of all that comes up short by comparison in your actual experience of the works, then surely there must be qualities about the latter (e.g. dry humor, charm, more natural storytelling), or damaging defects about the former (e.g. routine melodrama, oversimple themes), which you haven't properly considered in your assessment. There must be reasons, after all, why you wind up preferring DB to OP. And these are worth plumbing, I think, especially for the critic.

If you tend toward formalism, for instance, then why not strive to explain why the internal mechanisms of the works inform your different experiences of them? Better that than piously importing (likely arbitrary) standards for what constitutes "good writing" from god-knows-where into your evaluation of the works -- in which case in my view you're just enacting someone else's criticism rather than your own. A critical lens, as far as I'm concerned, should seek to describe and to explain and to account for the extraordinary (and sometimes not-so extraordinary) power and the experience of art -- and account for why we value it -- not condition (or distort, or impose upon) it, overly prescriptively.

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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hate than loved?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:37 am

sintzu wrote:
Esfír Dedragón wrote:I didn't know he banned the original version of Star Wars from the public... Wow, that's really foolish of him.

All this time, I always thought that he was just some guy who over-exaggerated his right to alter what he owned, even if people didn't like it.

I always knew, however, that it was very avaricious of him to release and re-release "special editions" of the same movies.
If someone is selling a copy they already have then you can get it that way but in terms of a current release of them, they don't exist and that's the reason.

He did that a lot, even though he was completely against it back in the day.

The problem wasn't just him re-releasing the movies, it was him changing them with each release to the point where major plot points were changed. Did you ever hear "han shot first ?" in the original, he shot someone before that someone might've shot him but in the rerelease, that someone shots first so that it looks like han was defending himself.
Again that is hardly changing a major plot point, fans went on some wild tangent about how it "ruined Solo's character" when it did not and actually with latest release he changed that again to point it is now hard to say who shot first. So him not listening to fans is also not true.

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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by Kid Buu » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:49 am

I'm guessing the only non-family/friends who know of him are fans of DBZ/Shonen series, so I'd probably say in that sense he is more loved than hated.
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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by SansrivaaL » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:00 am

Toriyama hated by someone? blasphemy!
I love the guy and he was my favorite mangaka for a certain time (now its Sorachi) because of Toriyama's involvement and creation known as Dragon Ball, we got Naruto,One Piece (tho dont really care about OP, but its loved by almost close to a 90%, guess I'm one of the 10% that cant get into it.) his influence was able to touch the hearts of a lot of mangaka now, like Yamada kun to 7 majo, she's a girl mangaka but claims that Dragon ball was the one that made her push to become a mangaka and create one. Other shows that likes to use DB as a baseline like NNT using powerlevel gauges as well, Gintama using DB sometimes to input on their jokes (well mostly Yamcha cause he's a big joke)
Funniest one was the creator of Blood Lad, his main character trying to pull of a Kamehame ha, then his enemy saying its a 3rd rate move that uses too much time to cast, this then pisses off the MC and talks about "What.the.fuck did you just say? that move comes from the GREATEST HERO IN THE UNIVERSE whom I respect, if the real thing used that move just now I 100% assure you that you'd be dust by now, its that monster of a move, the only reason why you're alive is because I was a poser, I look up to him so much that I carelessly Imitated his move, so I'm the third rate, I'm not worthy to use such a technique"
I was like yeah MF PREACH IT!
For anyone thats interested heres the video of the character preaching what we all know! 8)
https://youtu.be/wH6WPgaDqcw

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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by ABED » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:20 am

Faustus, could you explain the difference between "deliberate plotting" and "natural storytelling"?
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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:08 pm

Faustus wrote:To be sure, but I'd contend in return that whatever quality the likes of One Piece has to offer beyond joyous entertainment will not in practice prove all that stimulating (intellectually or otherwise) to your average adult, not least to one already immersed in a wealth of more enriching fiction out there (Oda's ardent speeches on friendship and ambition and hamhandedly thematic set-pieces are not very likely to move a regular consumer of Dickens novels).
Obviously not, it's fiction for children and young teenagers. But being off-putting to adults due to its superficial and numbingly annoying themes, it shouldn't be a reason to ignore any aspect it excels at, which is the same thing I would say for any fiction aimed at young audiences in general. Alice's Adventures in Wonderland comes to mind.
Faustus wrote:If Dragon Ball moves you better, resonates with you better, commands more power for you, then should it ultimately matter that One Piece is undeniably the more ambitious, the more complex, the more deliberately plotted, the more tightly controlled?
The short answer is yes. I love Dragon Ball for its imperfections but I don't want to pretend those imperfections don't exist.
Faustus wrote:There must be reasons, after all, why you wind up preferring DB to OP. And these are worth plumbing, I think, especially for the critic.
Sure, there are reasons, but Dragon Ball is also my favorite piece of fiction. I prefer it to Shakespeare's Hamlet, I prefer it to Orwell's 1984, I prefer it to Pessoa's Book of Disquiet. But I don't think anyone with a critical mind, not even the people who consider Dragon Ball their favorite work, would put it above those works I've mentioned. Again, entertainment and quality are different concepts. As to which factors are present in the assessment of quality and which are present in the assessment of entertainment, that's a subject I'm still trying to figure out myself. I'm not an expert on literary theory and criticism (not yet, at least), I can only say that the aspects that make me prefer Dragon Ball to One Piece are mostly irrelevant, or at least hold a small place, in the critical examination of a piece of fiction.
Faustus wrote:If you tend toward formalism, for instance, then why not strive to explain why the internal mechanisms of the works inform your different experiences of them? Better that than piously importing (likely arbitrary) standards for what constitutes "good writing" from god-knows-where into your evaluation of the works -- in which case in my view you're just enacting someone else's criticism rather than your own. A critical lens, as far as I'm concerned, should seek to describe and to explain and to account for the extraordinary (and sometimes not-so extraordinary) power and the experience of art -- and account for why we value it -- not condition (or distort, or impose upon) it, overly prescriptively.
Good points made all around, but just because I'm unable to do what you claim presently doesn't mean I don't strive towards it. The idea of formalism is appealing to me, as I've always been a very objective person, always leaned towards the natural sciences but a part of my life led me towards literature instead. In regards to the the claim that standards are arbitrary, well, aren't all standards mostly arbitrary? Besides what constitutes as good grammar, proper spelling and such (which some pieces of fiction still manage to break and be critically acclaimed, such as Finnegans Wake), objective bases as to what constitutes "good writing" barely exist, if at all. This leaves criticism a vastly subjective area, which I acknowledge it is (I guess I was a bit too premature calling myself a formalist; I like the idea of formalism, though I acknowledge the impossibility of its objective). But such a viewpoint, in my eyes, discredits art and vilifies discussion of this kind.

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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hate than loved?

Post by DBZ Macky » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:33 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:Nah, Toriyama is definitely loved by the majority. The only ones who really hate him are Tenshinhan fans who can't accept that Kuririn would kill him with his finger.
What about the fans who think that base Saiyans are stronger than Freeza?
I literally saw comments like "Toriyama is a shit writer" and that kind of stuff on a YouTube clip.

It's the vocal minority that "hates" Toriyama. And that isn't hate either, just a bit of overreactions.
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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hate than loved?

Post by sintzu » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:09 pm

DBZ Macky wrote:I literally saw comments like "Toriyama is a shit writer" and that kind of stuff on a YouTube clip.
The Youtube comment section is the worst place you could go for an opinion.

I'm sure there are well put together opinions but for the most part it's just "Toriyama sucks", "Super sucks", etc. without any other details.

I'm not saying you can't have that opinion but to just leave it at that without giving any reasons to why you think that just makes you (not you personally) seem like a troll who can't put a sentence together.
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Re: Is Akira Toriyama more hated than loved? And by whom?

Post by Cipher » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:37 pm

Faustus wrote:If you tend toward formalism, for instance, then why not strive to explain why the internal mechanisms of the works inform your different experiences of them? Better that than piously importing (likely arbitrary) standards for what constitutes "good writing" from god-knows-where into your evaluation of the works -- in which case in my view you're just enacting someone else's criticism rather than your own. A critical lens, as far as I'm concerned, should seek to describe and to explain and to account for the extraordinary (and sometimes not-so extraordinary) power and the experience of art -- and account for why we value it -- not condition (or distort, or impose upon) it, overly prescriptively.
This is such a good post.

Too often when discussing the writing of something like Dragon Ball do we begin by trying to acknowledge its perceived flaws against some pre-supposed standards, rather than looking at a successful work and trying to figure out what makes it tick.

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