Can Gohan's Ultimate state surpass the level it was at in the Buu Arc?

[kinisking]

Rou Kaioshin said it would unlock all of Gohan's hidden potential and more, and take it way, way beyond the limits so I don't see how it's possible for Gohan to get even more power on top of that.

I think the hidden potential he was talking about was if Gohan rage boosted to the fullest and then he gave him some more power on top of that. I don't think he was unlocking the potential he would've gotten through training. Remember, Goku was surprised that he had all that power inside of him so it makes me think he already had that power but it was untapped.

[julianix]

Current Gohan is stronger than Mystic Gohan.

Stop the crazy talk.

[Zamasu55]

Current Gohan is stronger than Mystic Gohan.

Stop the crazy talk.

Crazy talk's thinking Gohan is weak and current Ssj Goku and Vegeta are as strong as they were in the Buu saga.
Gohan's base was already stronger than Piccolo in ROF, this means he was at least Perfect Cell level just in base. As a Ssj he two-shotted Ginyu-Tagoma, a foe who had kicked both his and Piccolo's earlier.
Add his trainings with Piccolo who managed to let him keep up with Ssj Goku...

[FoolsGil]

I don't think so. but I believe they'll allow Gohan to stack SSJ on top of his Ultimate form to catch up with the others. And even if that doesn't happen, he and Buu will still be the 3rd and 4th strongest fighters on the team.

[Hugo Boss]

Current Gohan is stronger than Mystic Gohan.

Stop the crazy talk.

Crazy talk's thinking Gohan is weak and current Ssj Goku and Vegeta are as strong as they were in the Buu saga.
Gohan's base was already stronger than Piccolo in ROF, this means he was at least Perfect Cell level just in base. As a Ssj he two-shotted Ginyu-Tagoma, a foe who had kicked both his and Piccolo's earlier.
Add his trainings with Piccolo who managed to let him keep up with Ssj Goku...

Putting this "crazy talk" nonsense aside, I think a more apropriated way to reply it would be: Could you elaborate on that? You didn't provide any context in your first post. Btw, how Piccolo is comparable to Perfect Cell?

[HeroR]

Putting this "crazy talk" nonsense aside, I think a more apropriated way to reply it would be: Could you elaborate on that? You didn't provide any context in your first post. Btw, how Piccolo is comparable to Perfect Cell?

Piccolo during the Cell Games was at least stronger than Super Vegeta given how shocked Trunks was when Piccolo left the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Although he was still weaker than Perfect Cell during the Buu Saga, it is left vague if this is Perfect Cell or Super Cell (big power different). Even so, Piccolo is noted by Dende to have become stronger. Since Piccolo always trains, he would be even stronger in Resurrection 'F'. Meaning even if he isn't as strong as Cell or Super Perfect Cell he should be within the comparable power range. Like it wouldn't be too farfetched to say that Piccolo is as strong or stronger than Super Saiyan Goku during the Cell Games.

In either case, Buu Saga Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta were weaker than Piccolo in their base forms if you take Beerus' word that base form Goku was still weaker than Freeza, who Piccolo surpassed even before merging with Kami. So base form Gohan, who is rusty and not as strong as before, being above Piccolo would mean that he kept a lot of his original Ultimate power since his base form went from weaker than Freeza to probably around Cell or Perfect Cell's level. And he stacks Super Saiyan on top of that.

Of course, this raises the question of just how strong Ultimate Gohan was during the Buu Saga. Is it over 50x stronger than Cell (for argument sake), therefore Super Saiyan Gohan from Resurrection 'F' is still much weaker than his Ultimate himself. Since Gohan has trained and is able to maintain Super Saiyan better than Resurrection 'F' meaning he should be stronger than he was during Resurrection 'F', is his current Super Saiyan form surpassed where he was during the Buu Saga?

I am in the camp that says yes since it wouldn't make much sense for Gohan to be exactly as strong as he was during the Buu Saga despite training and getting himself back in shape. Plus, the levels of fighters have gone up since the Buu Saga, despite people insisting that everyone but a few are only as strong as Cell or Majin Vegeta.

[ssbgoku]

Putting this "crazy talk" nonsense aside, I think a more apropriated way to reply it would be: Could you elaborate on that? You didn't provide any context in your first post. Btw, how Piccolo is comparable to Perfect Cell?

Piccolo during the Cell Games was at least stronger than Super Vegeta given how shocked Trunks was when Piccolo left the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Although he was still weaker than Perfect Cell during the Buu Saga, it is left vague if this is Perfect Cell or Super Cell (big power different). Even so, Piccolo is noted by Dende to have become stronger. Since Piccolo always trains, he would be even stronger in Resurrection 'F'. Meaning even if he isn't as strong as Cell or Super Perfect Cell he should be within the comparable power range. Like it wouldn't be too farfetched to say that Piccolo is as strong or stronger than Super Saiyan Goku during the Cell Games.

In either case, Buu Saga Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta were weaker than Piccolo in their base forms if you take Beerus' word that base form Goku was still weaker than Freeza, who Piccolo surpassed even before merging with Kami. So base form Gohan, who is rusty and not as strong as before, being above Piccolo would mean that he kept a lot of his original Ultimate power since his base form went from weaker than Freeza to probably around Cell or Perfect Cell's level. And he stacks Super Saiyan on top of that.

Of course, this raises the question of just how strong Ultimate Gohan was during the Buu Saga. Is it over 50x stronger than Cell (for argument sake), therefore Super Saiyan Gohan from Resurrection 'F' is still much weaker than his Ultimate himself. Since Gohan has trained and is able to maintain Super Saiyan better than Resurrection 'F' meaning he should be stronger than he was during Resurrection 'F', is his current Super Saiyan form surpassed where he was during the Buu Saga?

I am in the camp that says yes since it wouldn't make much sense for Gohan to be exactly as strong as he was during the Buu Saga despite training and getting himself back in shape. Plus, the levels of fighters have gone up since the Buu Saga, despite people insisting that everyone but a few are only as strong as Cell or Majin Vegeta.

There is just one conclusion people pulled of in rof with which I can not agree based on hints and what happened.

I am talking about first form frieza being above ss gohan back then. Just let look at facts which supports first form frieza > ss gohan:

- gohan getting serious and wanting to hold off frieza in first form believing he can
- everyone being scared feeling ki comming from approaching them frieeza.

Facts and hints supporting rof ss gohan > first form frieza:

- Even after feeling frieza ki krillin assure himself and everyone it is ok as long as they have buu with them. Good buu > supressed firs6 form frieza.

- Everyone is letting down when gohan mentions no keeping up with training and even then gohan believe he can hold off frieza.

- Ss gohan having trouble to stay in ss while golden ftieza had same issue would be one of main points of rof. "No matter how strong you are if you can not maintain it for long enough you are screwed. "

- ss gotenks felt confident about taking on supressed most likely first form frieza. Gotenks picked up his interest too.

- frieza got enraged and worried a bit when ss gohan beats ginyuu tagoma

- frieza using sneaking laser beam to attack rusty gohan was struggling to stay ss so he could know wasting his energy attacking frieza wouldnt do any good as frieza has 3 forms more !

- enraged ss gohan call for help supressed any power up from first form frieza and goku didnt comment anything until frieza reached final form

- goku calling buu crazy strong while enraged even although before u6.

- goku being not happt abouy buu not taking part in tournament. Possible hints good buu ~ first form frost.

So please tell me guys why are you stubborn to say first form frieza was stronger not even mentioning some believe him to vastly supperior...

^^ This is why I refuse to say rof ss gohan > buu arc ultimate gohan based on gohan comments about himself slacking off, doubting himself and looking as he could fall dead any moment(how thin he was)... Also I am believer of everyone either slacking off due to time peace or hitting "wall of progress at that time", which could refer to piccolo, the last one, or he was gaining really small amount of power since cell arc end.

Exactly also "getting back in shape" wouldn't pointless if he was stronger then his peak. Also Ultimate gohan was like at least 144 times stronger then perfect cell based on:

ss2 goku - 1.5 x perfect cell
ss3 goku - 4 x ss2 goku
post rosat ss gotenks - 2 x ss3 gohan(could be more weaker)
ss3 gotenks - 4 x post rosat ss gotenks
Ultimate gohan - 1.5 x ss3 gotenks.

That also minmum gap, and we are not sure if piccolo even got perfect cell level or maybe just cell arc ss goku, so it could be 144x 1.5.Which means even with ss2 rof gohan would be <Ultimate gohan(buu arc)

[NitroEX]

His Ultimate state should be the limit of his potential.

They stopped caring about consistency years ago. Vegeta's power was maxed out by Babidi's magic, he had basically hit his peak as well. Next thing you know, he's given a rage boost to bump him up to SSJ3 tier + SSB transformation on top of that.

[HeroR]

^^ This is why I refuse to say rof ss gohan > buu arc ultimate gohan based on gohan comments about himself slacking off, doubting himself and looking as he could fall dead any moment(how thin he was)... Also I am believer of everyone either slacking off due to time peace or hitting "wall of progress at that time", which could refer to piccolo, the last one, or he was gaining really small amount of power since cell arc end.

Exactly also "getting back in shape" wouldn't pointless if he was stronger then his peak. Also Ultimate gohan was like at least 144 times stronger then perfect cell based on:

ss2 goku - 1.5 x perfect cell
ss3 goku - 4 x ss2 goku
post rosat ss gotenks - 2 x ss3 gohan(could be more weaker)
ss3 gotenks - 4 x post rosat ss gotenks
Ultimate gohan - 1.5 x ss3 gotenks.

That also minmum gap, and we are not sure if piccolo even got perfect cell level or maybe just cell arc ss goku, so it could be 144x 1.5.Which means even with ss2 rof gohan would be <Ultimate gohan(buu arc)

Gohan said that he could only hold Super Saiyan for a short time. So even if he had access to most of his full power, he couldn't hold it for long, basically making his Super Saiyan form like Super Saiyan 3. Which is why he wasn't confident. Also, the comment about Buu could just as easily mean that Buu could hold off Freeza better because he's durable. Buu survived several hits from Beerus when everyone went down in one blow. Unless you're trying to say that Buu was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku since he took more hits. Gotenks is also a cocky little brat whose self-confident is questionable.

The power gap between Super Saiyan 3 Goku, Gotenks, and Ultimate Gohan is never stated in the manga. The only thing we have is scaling. Ultimate Gohan is much stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks who was an even match for Super Buu. Goku is tricker since he lied several times about his power and him not wanting to fight Super Buu is done over the back drop of him saying before that he couldn't beat Fat Buu, before saying otherwise when he was about to fight Kid Buu.

Other words, we only know that Ultimate Gohan is over a 400x multiplier over his original base form, which was weaker than Freeza using Beerus' words. Now, his base form is over Piccolo, who is way stronger than Freeza and is in the range of Cell. That is at least a 200x different in just Gohan's base. If we low ball, maybe a 150x different.

[ssbgoku]

^^ This is why I refuse to say rof ss gohan > buu arc ultimate gohan based on gohan comments about himself slacking off, doubting himself and looking as he could fall dead any moment(how thin he was)... Also I am believer of everyone either slacking off due to time peace or hitting "wall of progress at that time", which could refer to piccolo, the last one, or he was gaining really small amount of power since cell arc end.

Exactly also "getting back in shape" wouldn't pointless if he was stronger then his peak. Also Ultimate gohan was like at least 144 times stronger then perfect cell based on:

ss2 goku - 1.5 x perfect cell
ss3 goku - 4 x ss2 goku
post rosat ss gotenks - 2 x ss3 gohan(could be more weaker)
ss3 gotenks - 4 x post rosat ss gotenks
Ultimate gohan - 1.5 x ss3 gotenks.

That also minmum gap, and we are not sure if piccolo even got perfect cell level or maybe just cell arc ss goku, so it could be 144x 1.5.Which means even with ss2 rof gohan would be <Ultimate gohan(buu arc)

Gohan said that he could only hold Super Saiyan for a short time. So even if he had access to most of his full power, he couldn't hold it for long, basically making his Super Saiyan form like Super Saiyan 3. Which is why he wasn't confident. Also, the comment about Buu could just as easily mean that Buu could hold off Freeza better because he's durable. Buu survived several hits from Beerus when everyone went down in one blow. Unless you're trying to say that Buu was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku since he took more hits. Gotenks is also a cocky little brat whose self-confident is questionable.

The power gap between Super Saiyan 3 Goku, Gotenks, and Ultimate Gohan is never stated in the manga. The only thing we have is scaling. Ultimate Gohan is much stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks who was an even match for Super Buu. Goku is tricker since he lied several times about his power and him not wanting to fight Super Buu is done over the back drop of him saying before that he couldn't beat Fat Buu, before saying otherwise when he was about to fight Kid Buu.

Other words, we only know that Ultimate Gohan is over a 400x multiplier over his original base form, which was weaker than Freeza using Beerus' words. Now, his base form is over Piccolo, who is way stronger than Freeza and is in the range of Cell. That is at least a 200x different in just Gohan's base. If we low ball, maybe a 150x different.

That would mean something, but I am not sure. Well about buu could right too, but then why goku called him crazy strong while enraged... I am not sure. Gotenks may be cocky but he was less rusty then gohan so he could judge frieeza power properly.

Now I mean power scaling, which shows the gap I presented above. I have took in consideration goku lying to everyone and us about his power so instead of making him pre rosat ss gotenks I would make him post rosat ss gotenks level, or close to. Also I am one who have post base gotenks only 5 times stronger then pre rosat base gotenks, which is huge gain anyway. Still Super buu > Kid buu, even although later is impossible to predict and act at whim.

Still gap between perfect cell and Ultimate gohan doesn't lie, no matter what. At least Ultimate gohan is 12 x buu arc ss3 goku, unless goku was only 4 times weaker then ss3 gotenks then maybe 3 times gap to Ultimate gohan.

Anyway unless opponent will be not beatable for good buu or base gohan suprassing good buu I will stick to that:

Tournament match Ultimaate gohan(predicting)>>Buu arc Ultimate gohan>current ss gohan>rof ss gohan > dbs first form frieeza

[TheUltimateNinja]

His Ultimate state should be the limit of his potential.

They stopped caring about consistency years ago. Vegeta's power was maxed out by Babidi's magic, he had basically hit his peak as well. Next thing you know, he's given a rage boost to bump him up to SSJ3 tier + SSB transformation on top of that.

The difference is that Babidi's spell is probably like the God Water, it brings out the maximum power you could have obtained until that point through training. The Rou Kaioshin ritual was meant to unlock absolutely everything Gohan would ever have.

[MKJ]

Rou Kaioshin said it would unlock all of Gohan's hidden potential and more, and take it way, way beyond the limits so I don't see how it's possible for Gohan to get even more power on top of that.

I think the hidden potential he was talking about was if Gohan rage boosted to the fullest and then he gave him some more power on top of that. I don't think he was unlocking the potential he would've gotten through training. Remember, Goku was surprised that he had all that power inside of him so it makes me think he already had that power but it was untapped.

I always viewed the ultimate form as a new base/form that can be trained. To me it was a new beginning with all the untapped/latent power released. This is power that could not be fully released by normal training so it took a Guru type person to bring it out. It is symbolic of a Shaktipat in esoteric teaching. As far as rage boosts go I think they imply different things depending on the character that does it. Vegeta is an example of someone that has gained strength from rage. It's extra power that he did not have previously. In Gohan's case I believe that rage is the key that temporarily unlocks power that is already inside of him. The Old Kai can bring it out permanently. I hope he gets a little time to shine in the new arc.

[Kagari]

His Ultimate state should be the limit of his potential.

They stopped caring about consistency years ago. Vegeta's power was maxed out by Babidi's magic, he had basically hit his peak as well. Next thing you know, he's given a rage boost to bump him up to SSJ3 tier + SSB transformation on top of that.

The difference is that Babidi's spell is probably like the God Water, it brings out the maximum power you could have obtained until that point through training. The Rou Kaioshin ritual was meant to unlock absolutely everything Gohan would ever have.

I don't remember this ever being said. Regardless, the series will continue and he'll get something as the plot demands. Just like Trunks did.

[HeroR]

That would mean something, but I am not sure. Well about buu could right too, but then why goku called him crazy strong while enraged... I am not sure. Gotenks may be cocky but he was less rusty then gohan so he could judge frieeza power properly.

Now I mean power scaling, which shows the gap I presented above. I have took in consideration goku lying to everyone and us about his power so instead of making him pre rosat ss gotenks I would make him post rosat ss gotenks level, or close to. Also I am one who have post base gotenks only 5 times stronger then pre rosat base gotenks, which is huge gain anyway. Still Super buu > Kid buu, even although later is impossible to predict and act at whim.

Still gap between perfect cell and Ultimate gohan doesn't lie, no matter what. At least Ultimate gohan is 12 x buu arc ss3 goku, unless goku was only 4 times weaker then ss3 gotenks then maybe 3 times gap to Ultimate gohan.

Anyway unless opponent will be not beatable for good buu or base gohan suprassing good buu I will stick to that:

Tournament match Ultimaate gohan(predicting)>>Buu arc Ultimate gohan>current ss gohan>rof ss gohan > dbs first form frieeza

Assuming that Super Saiyan Gohan from the Resurrection 'F' Saga was much weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. Freeza in his weakest form still took down Gohan from his easy chair. There wasn't even a fight, it was torture. It was like Nail vs. Freeza on Namek. So while we can assume that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks may have giving first form Freeza a fight, there is nothing indicating that he would have actually won.

Super Buu being stronger than Kid Buu is based entirely on Goku not wanting to fight Super Buu, while he thought he had a chance against Kid Buu, which runs into problems since Goku made his statement about Super Buu after he claimed that he couldn't beat Fat Buu. So Kid Buu could very well be stronger than base Super Buu, especially since no one pointed out, except Goku, about bringing Gotenks and Gohan to fight Kid Buu and even then he said 'help' them fight Kid Buu. Not smash Kid Buu into dust if he was weaker than Super Buu.

Where is that 12x coming from? And why do you have Super Saiyan Gohan from Resurrection 'F' stronger than first form Freeza?

[ssbgoku]

That would mean something, but I am not sure. Well about buu could right too, but then why goku called him crazy strong while enraged... I am not sure. Gotenks may be cocky but he was less rusty then gohan so he could judge frieeza power properly.

Now I mean power scaling, which shows the gap I presented above. I have took in consideration goku lying to everyone and us about his power so instead of making him pre rosat ss gotenks I would make him post rosat ss gotenks level, or close to. Also I am one who have post base gotenks only 5 times stronger then pre rosat base gotenks, which is huge gain anyway. Still Super buu > Kid buu, even although later is impossible to predict and act at whim.

Still gap between perfect cell and Ultimate gohan doesn't lie, no matter what. At least Ultimate gohan is 12 x buu arc ss3 goku, unless goku was only 4 times weaker then ss3 gotenks then maybe 3 times gap to Ultimate gohan.

Anyway unless opponent will be not beatable for good buu or base gohan suprassing good buu I will stick to that:

Tournament match Ultimaate gohan(predicting)>>Buu arc Ultimate gohan>current ss gohan>rof ss gohan > dbs first form frieeza

Assuming that Super Saiyan Gohan from the Resurrection 'F' Saga was much weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. Freeza in his weakest form still took down Gohan from his easy chair. There wasn't even a fight, it was torture. It was like Nail vs. Freeza on Namek. So while we can assume that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks may have giving first form Freeza a fight, there is nothing indicating that he would have actually won.

Super Buu being stronger than Kid Buu is based entirely on Goku not wanting to fight Super Buu, while he thought he had a chance against Kid Buu, which runs into problems since Goku made his statement about Super Buu after he claimed that he couldn't beat Fat Buu. So Kid Buu could very well be stronger than base Super Buu, especially since no one pointed out, except Goku, about bringing Gotenks and Gohan to fight Kid Buu and even then he said 'help' them fight Kid Buu. Not smash Kid Buu into dust if he was weaker than Super Buu.

Where is that 12x coming from? And why do you have Super Saiyan Gohan from Resurrection 'F' stronger than first form Freeza?

First, I actually strongly believe that even in bog gohan was already somehow 80% of his Buu Ultimate self and same with gotenks and time of peace got to them making them slacking off their training(Goten and Trunks were shown goofing/playing around instead of training). Vegeta even pointed out that to kids before forming team for u6 tournament.

So we have bog gohan ~ buu arc ss3 gotenks and bog ss3 gotenks ~ 2 x buu arc ss2 gotenks, and there is possiblity that due to being out of god reach they just neglected their training completly or lost drive. Also Chichi being strick with gotenks about learning made trunks having no fighting opponent.

@Bold part, well at the most ss3 goku could be post rosat ss gotenks equal, but that would be pushing it, although quite possible. Based on Super buu being > kid buu and anime dub make mistake calling him the strongest as in japanese orginally he was called "The most dangerous". However Considering Akira's retcon of buu's origin and about his power it is possibly for kid buu being the strongest if somehow he was able to tap into more of power from his unlimited power he posses and of which he is not aware of. However until it is confirmed super buu > kid buu.

Know ss3 multiplier is simply 8 x ss so we got ss3 gotenks and now knowing Ultimate gohan was stronger then ss3 gotenks I believe Ultimate gohan = 1.5 x ss3 gotenks.

8*1.5=12 . Now About compaarison of rof ss gohan and dbs first form frieeza I believe it is based on frieeza's fear about ss while gohan turned ss. Frieeza used sneak beam attack on gohan knowing gohan's issue about maintain that power, Also when ss gotenks atacked Tagoma frieeza was suprised and took interest in new opponent just for seconds before fusion ended. Also gohan' s call for help with ss supressed energy of not serious frieeza at least. Also Krilling beliving that with good buu they would be ok and gohan believing/stating that he can hold of frieeza in first form. The reason why gohan didn't attack frieeza could knowledge about frieeza's tranasformations and also struggling to mantain ss while trying not to anger frieeza.

Also comming from whis himself this arc was about maintance problem, prime example golden frieeza who was loosing in the end badly , so why not ss gohan ?
Also let's not forget goku calling buu crazy strong while enraged(fat buu=rage + gooda buu) before u6

[MozillaVulpix]

Not to mention, Super Saiyan 2 was also supposed to be his potential unleashed. If they still want to use the idea that "Gohan has the potential to be the strongest Saiyan", Goku and Vegeta already surpassed how strong Ultimate Gohan was, so the presumption is Gohan probably could as well. I don't know how or why or if they could do it while stopping it from sounding stupid, but at the VERY least, I'm not going to cry "inconsistency!" if it does happen.

[HeroR]

That would mean something, but I am not sure. Well about buu could right too, but then why goku called him crazy strong while enraged... I am not sure. Gotenks may be cocky but he was less rusty then gohan so he could judge frieeza power properly.

Now I mean power scaling, which shows the gap I presented above. I have took in consideration goku lying to everyone and us about his power so instead of making him pre rosat ss gotenks I would make him post rosat ss gotenks level, or close to. Also I am one who have post base gotenks only 5 times stronger then pre rosat base gotenks, which is huge gain anyway. Still Super buu > Kid buu, even although later is impossible to predict and act at whim.

Still gap between perfect cell and Ultimate gohan doesn't lie, no matter what. At least Ultimate gohan is 12 x buu arc ss3 goku, unless goku was only 4 times weaker then ss3 gotenks then maybe 3 times gap to Ultimate gohan.

Anyway unless opponent will be not beatable for good buu or base gohan suprassing good buu I will stick to that:

Tournament match Ultimaate gohan(predicting)>>Buu arc Ultimate gohan>current ss gohan>rof ss gohan > dbs first form frieeza

Assuming that Super Saiyan Gohan from the Resurrection 'F' Saga was much weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. Freeza in his weakest form still took down Gohan from his easy chair. There wasn't even a fight, it was torture. It was like Nail vs. Freeza on Namek. So while we can assume that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks may have giving first form Freeza a fight, there is nothing indicating that he would have actually won.

Super Buu being stronger than Kid Buu is based entirely on Goku not wanting to fight Super Buu, while he thought he had a chance against Kid Buu, which runs into problems since Goku made his statement about Super Buu after he claimed that he couldn't beat Fat Buu. So Kid Buu could very well be stronger than base Super Buu, especially since no one pointed out, except Goku, about bringing Gotenks and Gohan to fight Kid Buu and even then he said 'help' them fight Kid Buu. Not smash Kid Buu into dust if he was weaker than Super Buu.

Where is that 12x coming from? And why do you have Super Saiyan Gohan from Resurrection 'F' stronger than first form Freeza?

First, I actually strongly believe that even in bog gohan was already somehow 80% of his Buu Ultimate self and same with gotenks and time of peace got to them making them slacking off their training(Goten and Trunks were shown goofing/playing around instead of training). Vegeta even pointed out that to kids before forming team for u6 tournament.

So we have bog gohan ~ buu arc ss3 gotenks and bog ss3 gotenks ~ 2 x buu arc ss2 gotenks, and there is possiblity that due to being out of god reach they just neglected their training completly or lost drive. Also Chichi being strick with gotenks about learning made trunks having no fighting opponent.

@Bold part, well at the most ss3 goku could be post rosat ss gotenks equal, but that would be pushing it, although quite possible. Based on Super buu being > kid buu and anime dub make mistake calling him the strongest as in japanese orginally he was called "The most dangerous". However Considering Akira's retcon of buu's origin and about his power it is possibly for kid buu being the strongest if somehow he was able to tap into more of power from his unlimited power he posses and of which he is not aware of. However until it is confirmed super buu > kid buu.

Know ss3 multiplier is simply 8 x ss so we got ss3 gotenks and now knowing Ultimate gohan was stronger then ss3 gotenks I believe Ultimate gohan = 1.5 x ss3 gotenks.

8*1.5=12 . Now About compaarison of rof ss gohan and dbs first form frieeza I believe it is based on frieeza's fear about ss while gohan turned ss. Frieeza used sneak beam attack on gohan knowing gohan's issue about maintain that power, Also when ss gotenks atacked Tagoma frieeza was suprised and took interest in new opponent just for seconds before fusion ended. Also gohan' s call for help with ss supressed energy of not serious frieeza at least. Also Krilling beliving that with good buu they would be ok and gohan believing/stating that he can hold of frieeza in first form. The reason why gohan didn't attack frieeza could knowledge about frieeza's tranasformations and also struggling to mantain ss while trying not to anger frieeza.

Also comming from whis himself this arc was about maintance problem, prime example golden frieeza who was loosing in the end badly , so why not ss gohan ?
Also let's not forget goku calling buu crazy strong while enraged(fat buu=rage + gooda buu) before u6

Only Gohan in Resurrection 'F' was implicitly said to be weaker, not Gotenks at any time. Vegeta only told Goten and Trunks to get stronger on their own without fusion. Not that they're weaker than they used to be.

Again, Super Buu is stronger is based on Goku not wanting to fight Super Buu, and it was said on the basic that Goku couldn't beat the weaker Fat Buu. Then Goku turns around and said, 'I could have beaten Fat Buu' when he insisted otherwise.

Freeza was surprised because he only thought Goku and Trunks could become Super Saiyans. Not that Gohan could, not that he's shocked Gohan being more powerful. Once more, Freeza's Death Beam still went thought Gohan like butter even after the first surpassed hit and Gohan was clearly on guard. Gohan's power isn't going to drop that dramatic from one Death Beam to the shoulder.

Again, using good Buu doesn't mean much since Buu would be helpful by simply being durable. This is the same person who took several hits from Beerus and was still able to 'fight' while everyone else went down in one hit, including Ultimate Gohan. Plus, Buu has other abilities outside of his strength that makes him dangerous. They also didn't know exactly how much stronger Freeza had gotten until he landed on Earth. Plus, Buu would be 'crazy strong' considering that he is next strongest after Gohan. What was Goku going to say, 'everyone else sucked, so we have to used Buu'.

In other words, all facts points to first form Freeza >> Super Saiyan Gohan. They wouldn't have shown Gohan being torture as a Super Saiyan if the show was trying to say otherwise. And Super Saiyan Gohan didn't experience draining of energy since such a thing was never noted.

[NitroEX]

His Ultimate state should be the limit of his potential.

They stopped caring about consistency years ago. Vegeta's power was maxed out by Babidi's magic, he had basically hit his peak as well. Next thing you know, he's given a rage boost to bump him up to SSJ3 tier + SSB transformation on top of that.

The difference is that Babidi's spell is probably like the God Water, it brings out the maximum power you could have obtained until that point through training. The Rou Kaioshin ritual was meant to unlock absolutely everything Gohan would ever have.

Well actually, Babidi's magic is supposed to have brought a fighter beyond their natural limits (hence the bulging veins and overstressed appearance). Spopovich's maximum was human level (below Mr. Satan) but Babidi's magic made him superhuman, that's made very clear in the story and Vegeta likely had a similar increase. If he was already beyond his natural limits as Majin Vegeta then I don't see how training or a rage boost (powered by "love" no less..) could unlock much more. Of course, this is inconvenient when you want to sell new Vegeta merchandise so... screw established lore!

Point is, if they were willing to break rules for one character, they could've easily done so for another. Unfortunately, they chose to give Gohan an inferior transformation (SSJ) which he'd already surpassed.

[ssbgoku]

Assuming that Super Saiyan Gohan from the Resurrection 'F' Saga was much weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. Freeza in his weakest form still took down Gohan from his easy chair. There wasn't even a fight, it was torture. It was like Nail vs. Freeza on Namek. So while we can assume that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks may have giving first form Freeza a fight, there is nothing indicating that he would have actually won.

Super Buu being stronger than Kid Buu is based entirely on Goku not wanting to fight Super Buu, while he thought he had a chance against Kid Buu, which runs into problems since Goku made his statement about Super Buu after he claimed that he couldn't beat Fat Buu. So Kid Buu could very well be stronger than base Super Buu, especially since no one pointed out, except Goku, about bringing Gotenks and Gohan to fight Kid Buu and even then he said 'help' them fight Kid Buu. Not smash Kid Buu into dust if he was weaker than Super Buu.

Where is that 12x coming from? And why do you have Super Saiyan Gohan from Resurrection 'F' stronger than first form Freeza?

First, I actually strongly believe that even in bog gohan was already somehow 80% of his Buu Ultimate self and same with gotenks and time of peace got to them making them slacking off their training(Goten and Trunks were shown goofing/playing around instead of training). Vegeta even pointed out that to kids before forming team for u6 tournament.

So we have bog gohan ~ buu arc ss3 gotenks and bog ss3 gotenks ~ 2 x buu arc ss2 gotenks, and there is possiblity that due to being out of god reach they just neglected their training completly or lost drive. Also Chichi being strick with gotenks about learning made trunks having no fighting opponent.

@Bold part, well at the most ss3 goku could be post rosat ss gotenks equal, but that would be pushing it, although quite possible. Based on Super buu being > kid buu and anime dub make mistake calling him the strongest as in japanese orginally he was called "The most dangerous". However Considering Akira's retcon of buu's origin and about his power it is possibly for kid buu being the strongest if somehow he was able to tap into more of power from his unlimited power he posses and of which he is not aware of. However until it is confirmed super buu > kid buu.

Know ss3 multiplier is simply 8 x ss so we got ss3 gotenks and now knowing Ultimate gohan was stronger then ss3 gotenks I believe Ultimate gohan = 1.5 x ss3 gotenks.

8*1.5=12 . Now About compaarison of rof ss gohan and dbs first form frieeza I believe it is based on frieeza's fear about ss while gohan turned ss. Frieeza used sneak beam attack on gohan knowing gohan's issue about maintain that power, Also when ss gotenks atacked Tagoma frieeza was suprised and took interest in new opponent just for seconds before fusion ended. Also gohan' s call for help with ss supressed energy of not serious frieeza at least. Also Krilling beliving that with good buu they would be ok and gohan believing/stating that he can hold of frieeza in first form. The reason why gohan didn't attack frieeza could knowledge about frieeza's tranasformations and also struggling to mantain ss while trying not to anger frieeza.

Also comming from whis himself this arc was about maintance problem, prime example golden frieeza who was loosing in the end badly , so why not ss gohan ?
Also let's not forget goku calling buu crazy strong while enraged(fat buu=rage + gooda buu) before u6

Only Gohan in Resurrection 'F' was implicitly said to be weaker, not Gotenks at any time. Vegeta only told Goten and Trunks to get stronger on their own without fusion. Not that they're weaker than they used to be.

Again, Super Buu is stronger is based on Goku not wanting to fight Super Buu, and it was said on the basic that Goku couldn't beat the weaker Fat Buu. Then Goku turns around and said, 'I could have beaten Fat Buu' when he insisted otherwise.

Freeza was surprised because he only thought Goku and Trunks could become Super Saiyans. Not that Gohan could, not that he's shocked Gohan being more powerful. Once more, Freeza's Death Beam still went thought Gohan like butter even after the first surpassed hit and Gohan was clearly on guard. Gohan's power isn't going to drop that dramatic from one Death Beam to the shoulder.

Again, using good Buu doesn't mean much since Buu would be helpful by simply being durable. This is the same person who took several hits from Beerus and was still able to 'fight' while everyone else went down in one hit, including Ultimate Gohan. Plus, Buu has other abilities outside of his strength that makes him dangerous. They also didn't know exactly how much stronger Freeza had gotten until he landed on Earth. Plus, Buu would be 'crazy strong' considering that he is next strongest after Gohan. What was Goku going to say, 'everyone else sucked, so we have to used Buu'.

In other words, all facts points to first form Freeza >> Super Saiyan Gohan. They wouldn't have shown Gohan being torture as a Super Saiyan if the show was trying to say otherwise. And Super Saiyan Gohan didn't experience draining of energy since such a thing was never noted.

I will stick to super buu > kid buu and post rosat ss gotenks >= ss3 goku.

Also To keep it short one of main points of this arc was to show stamina issue while being stronger is big deal- see case of golden frieeza wining then getting trashed.

Gohan:"Now i wonder how long will my body last"... After two shooting Tagoma. It means ss gohan just after transfirmation felt as golden frieza while dropping stamina.

Either that or rof ss gohan was much infferior to ultimate buu self arc. Buu arc Ultimate gohan > dbs frieza first form at least, possible > second/three too.

Final form frieeza >= buu arc Ultimate gohan. I am going by retcon theory with base sayians in rof

[Hugo Boss]

Putting this "crazy talk" nonsense aside, I think a more apropriated way to reply it would be: Could you elaborate on that? You didn't provide any context in your first post. Btw, how Piccolo is comparable to Perfect Cell?

Piccolo during the Cell Games was at least stronger than Super Vegeta given how shocked Trunks was when Piccolo left the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Although he was still weaker than Perfect Cell during the Buu Saga, it is left vague if this is Perfect Cell or Super Cell (big power different). Even so, Piccolo is noted by Dende to have become stronger. Since Piccolo always trains, he would be even stronger in Resurrection 'F'. Meaning even if he isn't as strong as Cell or Super Perfect Cell he should be within the comparable power range. Like it wouldn't be too farfetched to say that Piccolo is as strong or stronger than Super Saiyan Goku during the Cell Games.

In either case, Buu Saga Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta were weaker than Piccolo in their base forms if you take Beerus' word that base form Goku was still weaker than Freeza, who Piccolo surpassed even before merging with Kami. So base form Gohan, who is rusty and not as strong as before, being above Piccolo would mean that he kept a lot of his original Ultimate power since his base form went from weaker than Freeza to probably around Cell or Perfect Cell's level. And he stacks Super Saiyan on top of that.

Of course, this raises the question of just how strong Ultimate Gohan was during the Buu Saga. Is it over 50x stronger than Cell (for argument sake), therefore Super Saiyan Gohan from Resurrection 'F' is still much weaker than his Ultimate himself. Since Gohan has trained and is able to maintain Super Saiyan better than Resurrection 'F' meaning he should be stronger than he was during Resurrection 'F', is his current Super Saiyan form surpassed where he was during the Buu Saga?

I am in the camp that says yes since it wouldn't make much sense for Gohan to be exactly as strong as he was during the Buu Saga despite training and getting himself back in shape. Plus, the levels of fighters have gone up since the Buu Saga, despite people insisting that everyone but a few are only as strong as Cell or Majin Vegeta.

I don't know if Gohan got back in shape yet. The recent episode implies the opposite. He himself wonders if it would not be better to take it easy, since he hasn't fought in a long time. When Goku is the one who gives him confidence, I suspect Gohan doesn't think he is at his best condition. I think the promotional material is showing that this is something that will happen, but after the zen-exibition-matches.