Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

It might seem like a weird question what with how the anime played out but who do you think is actually stronger

Final Form Frieza (in Resurrection F) or Final Form Frost?

The anime at the time of the Universe 6 saga did make Frost seem stronger. However the manga arguably makes Frost appear to be weaker, maybe even much much weaker.

If Toriyama was asked who was stronger who do you think he would say?

[TheUltimateNinja]

It might seem like a weird question what with how the anime played out but who do you think is actually stronger

Final Form Frieza (in Resurrection F) or Final Form Frost?

The anime at the time of the Universe 6 saga did make Frost seem stronger. However the manga arguably makes Frost appear to be weaker, maybe even much much weaker.

If Toriyama was asked who was stronger who do you think he would say?

Freeza.

[ChiefWamsutta]

It might seem like a weird question what with how the anime played out but who do you think is actually stronger

Final Form Frieza (in Resurrection F) or Final Form Frost?

The anime at the time of the Universe 6 saga did make Frost seem stronger. However the manga arguably makes Frost appear to be weaker, maybe even much much weaker.

If Toriyama was asked who was stronger who do you think he would say?

I think he would say Frieza is stronger.

All Piccolo did was stall to charge his amped Special beam cannon. It was made very obvious that he stood no chance against Frost. Current SSJ Goku is a bit over 50x stronger than Boo arc Super Gohan.

Okay, so where in range of SSGod Goku is the current SS Goku, in your opinion?

BOG SSJG Goku: 275,000,000,000,000

Universe survival arc Base Goku: 28,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 1,425,000,000,000

Okay, so when Goku lost SSGod and turned back into a Super Saiyan ... why do you have his Super Saiyan form as 1/275 of the power? Goku said he didn't feel any weaker when he was a Super Saiyan in outer space right after losing SSGod.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

It might seem like a weird question what with how the anime played out but who do you think is actually stronger

Final Form Frieza (in Resurrection F) or Final Form Frost?

The anime at the time of the Universe 6 saga did make Frost seem stronger. However the manga arguably makes Frost appear to be weaker, maybe even much much weaker.

If Toriyama was asked who was stronger who do you think he would say?

I think he would say Frieza is stronger.

Okay, so where in range of SSGod Goku is the current SS Goku, in your opinion?

BOG SSJG Goku: 275,000,000,000,000

Universe survival arc Base Goku: 28,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 1,425,000,000,000

Okay, so when Goku lost SSGod and turned back into a Super Saiyan ... why do you have his Super Saiyan form as 1/275 of the power? Goku said he didn't feel any weaker when he was a Super Saiyan in outer space right after losing SSGod.

He didn't feel any weaker since he didn't lose SSJG's power. It fused with him. Doesn't mean that he possesses SSJG's full power in his lesser forms which he doesn't. He needs to transform into SSJG to use the forms full power which includes the god ki. He only has God's essence in his lesser forms. He only exceeded his previous SSJG level with Super Saiyan Blue.

[buutenks]

Lots of head canon lol. Well, I will just use what was shown. Basically Base Goku is above ssj3 Gotenks, meaning so is base Gohan and in turn Piccolo. Meaning Ssj Gohan>Base Gohan>Lavenda>Good Buu>Basil.

[ChiefWamsutta]

He didn't feel any weaker since he didn't lose SSJG's power. It fused with him. Doesn't mean that he possesses SSJG's full power in his lesser forms which he doesn't. He needs to transform into SSJG to use the forms full power which includes the god ki. He only has God's essence in his lesser forms. He only exceeded his previous SSJG level with Super Saiyan Blue.

I get what you're saying and I agree with it, but then how was SS Goku able to keep up with Beerus right after he lost the SSGod form? He would be much weaker than SSGod.

[Bullza]

It's becoming a little bit more clear to me where things stand in the manga now. Surely the Base Saiyans are weaker than Piccolo in the manga.

*Frost isn't as pitifully weak compared to Super Saiyan Goku in the manga.
*There was nothing about Frost struggling to use his Final Form in the manga.
*Nothing to suggest he'd lost a considerable amount of power after fighting Goku unlike in the anime.
*Piccolo was barely weaker than Frost. The two fought equally and Piccolo said while he couldn't beat Frost, Frost couldn't beat him.
*Vegeta didn't one shot Frost or say he held back in the manga.
*Magetta was weaker than Frost
*Base Vegeta was weaker than Magetta and on par with Base Cabba who was also weaker than Frost.

SSJ Goku > Frost >= Piccolo > Magetta > Base Goku

[TheUltimateNinja]

I wonder if any Super character besides Zeno can beat Sonic, and I have my doubts about Zeno. I guess most of the God tier characters can beat Base Sonic, don't know if anyone stands a chance against Super Sonic, though.

[ssbgoku]

1) Super Saiyan Goku vs. Beerus in Outer Space (BoG)
2) Monaka-Beerus vs. Base Goku (U6)
3) SS3 Gotenks vs. Base Copy-Vegeta (U6)
4) Base Goku vs. Final Form Frieza (RoF)

Possible explanation in-universe:
1) left over of ssg also due to ss goku managed to hold on ssg power longer, then with last bit of ss power along with last bit of ssg base goku punched beerus´s ball.
2) Not in draft of Toryiama. Lack of reference or even one scebe ut happened in manga
3) Not in draft of Toryiama so Toei addition can be ignored. How I know ? Because there were no scenes from copy water in manga even with different scenes not at all.
4) This one is weird case but notice thay this strong base only happened until ssb made it appearance which could mean that at that time he couldnt tranform in ss2 and ss3 and his base was indeed equal to ssg while ss was trying to turns him in ssb. It could be after effect of divine ki which once unlocked again caused big drop of power in base forms and ss as ss2 and ss3 were possible again.

Could be convulted but I see it working. If you want detailed version then let me know. For me

Canon. - main story arc which took place in both manga and anime even having them as different continuituies until Akira says both are same with twist.

[Marlowe89]

I suppose the idea is that God ki is just a condensed version of regular ki.

Well there's that and there's the fact that Trunks specifically implied that it made Goku/Vegeta stronger than they would be without it. And obviously, they're not going to introduce a concept like "God ki" into Goku's repertoire if it has nothing to do with strength because then it has absolutely no purpose.

Does it prove the existence of two bases in itself? Not necessarily, but it does provide a framework for what the show would need to demonstrate in order for that theory to be validated.

[buutenks]

1) Super Saiyan Goku vs. Beerus in Outer Space (BoG)
2) Monaka-Beerus vs. Base Goku (U6)
3) SS3 Gotenks vs. Base Copy-Vegeta (U6)
4) Base Goku vs. Final Form Frieza (RoF)

Possible explanation in-universe:
1) left over of ssg also due to ss goku managed to hold on ssg power longer, then with last bit of ss power along with last bit of ssg base goku punched beerus´s ball.
2) Not in draft of Toryiama. Lack of reference or even one scebe ut happened in manga
3) Not in draft of Toryiama so Toei addition can be ignored. How I know ? Because there were no scenes from copy water in manga even with different scenes not at all.
4) This one is weird case but notice thay this strong base only happened until ssb made it appearance which could mean that at that time he couldnt tranform in ss2 and ss3 and his base was indeed equal to ssg while ss was trying to turns him in ssb. It could be after effect of divine ki which once unlocked again caused big drop of power in base forms and ss as ss2 and ss3 were possible again.

Could be convulted but I see it working. If you want detailed version then let me know. For me

Canon. - main story arc which took place in both manga and anime even having them as different continuituies until Akira says both are same with twist.

Ughh, having to do mental gymnastics just so Super PLs can make an ounce of sense is so freaking stupid.

[GreatWyrmGold]

As my signature declares, I've been working on a DBS power level list. However, I've been held up by one conundrum that I can't untangle and don't want to go too far without handling, to minimize the errors I need to correct later. The conundrum goes like this:
Part 1: Frieza Redux
1. Frieza's true form is weaker than Goku's base form.
2. Frieza's first form is stronger than SSJ Gohan.
3. While not stated or directly shown, the fact that Piccolo didn't jump in to help Gohan until the last moment (or against Ginyu!Tagoma) strongly suggests he's weaker.
4. Goku and Vegeta are of similar trength.
5. Given the above, Piccolo << base Goku/Vegeta
Part Two: U6 Tournament
1. Frost's assault form fought roughly equally with Goku's base form.
2. Frost's true form lost badly to SSJ Goku (and worse to SSJ Vegeta).
3. Given 1 & 2, the gap between Frost's forms probably isn't all that big, relatively speaking. (maybe 5-10x?)
4. Frost's true form had an advantage over Piccolo, despite injuries sustained fighting Goku, but not enough to allow an easy victory.
5. Given the above, Piccolo seems to have (very) roughly the same strength as base Goku/Vegeta.

I don't think there was much time to train between those arcs, and even if there was I don't see how Piccolo could have caught up. Am I missing something?

[Hugo Boss]

It might seem like a weird question what with how the anime played out but who do you think is actually stronger

Final Form Frieza (in Resurrection F) or Final Form Frost?

The anime at the time of the Universe 6 saga did make Frost seem stronger. However the manga arguably makes Frost appear to be weaker, maybe even much much weaker.

If Toriyama was asked who was stronger who do you think he would say?

By the flow of the narrative, Frost seems to be the strongest. Toriyama would probably remember of Golden Freeza, so there is your answer.

[emperior]

I suppose the idea is that God ki is just a condensed version of regular ki.

Well there's that and there's the fact that Trunks specifically implied that it made Goku/Vegeta stronger than they would be without it. And obviously, they're not going to introduce a concept like "God ki" into Goku's repertoire if it has nothing to do with strength because then it has absolutely no purpose.

Does it prove the existence of two bases in itself? Not necessarily, but it does provide a framework for what the show would need to demonstrate in order for that theory to be validated.

I think two bases need to exist, it's not like Goku can no longer use the ki he used all his life, and Super is quite explicit about God Ki. Unless the base Goku we see in RoF is that strong because he absorbed SSG power, and his SSJ is about as strong as it was against Beerus when SSG expired. We know that the multipliers for the SSJ forms haven't changed, as Gowasu commented how SSJ2 multiplied Goku's power tens of times. But this would mean Zamasu is about 2x stronger than the SSG of Beerus' dreams and Trunks would be too (Though Beerus was surprised by Trunks' power, and Gowasu compared Goku's power to that of Gods of Destruction)
Super Saiyan Blue would be way above that (SSJ2), at least by 5 times or else SSJ3 would be better.
So Goku, when using SSB + Kaioken x10, would be over 100 times stronger (unless I'm making errors) than he was against Beerus, and we know Beerus is still above that (even though he looked worried when he saw Kaioken)
Unless Super is trying to excessively bloat power levels with no reason.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Unless Super is trying to excessively bloat power levels with no reason.

Not as much as Z did...
But seriously now. The biggest problem I have with the two-base theory is simple. It's impossible to tell which base is being used. This leads to two problems:
1. Usability. How do you know when Goku or Vegeta are in what base form?
2. Falsifiability. How could you possibly prove the two-base theory wrong?
There's also the issue of "Why not just use the better base in serious fights?", but Dragon Ball's always has idiocy like that.

[emperior]

Not as much as Z did...
But seriously now. The biggest problem I have with the two-base theory is simple. It's impossible to tell which base is being used. This leads to two problems:
1. Usability. How do you know when Goku or Vegeta are in what base form?
2. Falsifiability. How could you possibly prove the two-base theory wrong?
There's also the issue of "Why not just use the better base in serious fights?", but Dragon Ball's always has idiocy like that.

But the levels are extremely bloated now compared to Z, and they still want us to believe Beerus was using only 1% of his true power against Goku?
And how can Piccolo possibly be as powerful as base Goku if he was weaker than 1st form Freezer shortly before the tournament, and if Goku had to transform against Frost than it means Frost is stronger than final form Freezer in RoF. Which means Frost would beat Piccolo just by blowing if that was the case.
I also wouldn't know how to explain Vegeta saying Cabba is on par with him in base. Unless Vegeta is blatantly lying (then why would they put such a line if it was false, considering we barely get such lines in Super) We also know SSB is quite superior to SSJ in U6 arc because of Beerus comments about how easy it would have been for Vegeta to beat Magetta had he used his full power (SSB)
Talking about Cabba, how prodigious can the kid be if he is as strong as Vegeta and Goku in his base, if Goku and Vegeta really are stronger than Majin Buu in their base?
What I think happened is that Toriyama wanted to have a cool Freezer vs Goku fight before the two transform, so he had to make Goku insanely strong for it to happen. Quite a stupid move, considering that fight messed up power levels. Maybe he did it because he had no plans of writing a new serie. But then why did he have to make Goku and Vegeta use their SSJ forms again? He could have given an explanation as to why they are still using those forms, he should have given us and Toei a better idea of how strong Goku and Vegeta are.
I don't blame the anime staff to be honest, they are probably as confused as we are.

[ChiefWamsutta]

As my signature declares, I've been working on a DBS power level list. However, I've been held up by one conundrum that I can't untangle and don't want to go too far without handling, to minimize the errors I need to correct later. The conundrum goes like this:
Part 1: Frieza Redux
1. Frieza's true form is weaker than Goku's base form.
2. Frieza's first form is stronger than SSJ Gohan.
3. While not stated or directly shown, the fact that Piccolo didn't jump in to help Gohan until the last moment (or against Ginyu!Tagoma) strongly suggests he's weaker.
4. Goku and Vegeta are of similar trength.
5. Given the above, Piccolo << base Goku/Vegeta
Part Two: U6 Tournament
1. Frost's assault form fought roughly equally with Goku's base form.
2. Frost's true form lost badly to SSJ Goku (and worse to SSJ Vegeta).
3. Given 1 & 2, the gap between Frost's forms probably isn't all that big, relatively speaking. (maybe 5-10x?)
4. Frost's true form had an advantage over Piccolo, despite injuries sustained fighting Goku, but not enough to allow an easy victory.
5. Given the above, Piccolo seems to have (very) roughly the same strength as base Goku/Vegeta.

I don't think there was much time to train between those arcs, and even if there was I don't see how Piccolo could have caught up. Am I missing something?

BUMP! Everyone on this thread needs to see this!! DBSuper powerscaling has too many problems!!

RoF Saga: Piccolo < SS Gohan < First Form Frieza < Final Form Frieza < Base Goku/Vegeta
U6 Saga: Assault Form Frost < Base Goku/Vegeta/Piccolo < Final Form Frost < SS Goku/Vegeta

I really have no clue what to say about this. Goku offers for Piccolo to train in the time chamber with Vegeta and himself, but Piccolo declines. He states that he wouldn't be able to keep up with Vegeta and Goku. By him saying this he has to be much weaker than Base Goku and Base Vegeta during U6 Saga. He may have not gotten far in his training because it was only five days before the tournament.

[emperior]

As my signature declares, I've been working on a DBS power level list. However, I've been held up by one conundrum that I can't untangle and don't want to go too far without handling, to minimize the errors I need to correct later. The conundrum goes like this:
Part 1: Frieza Redux
1. Frieza's true form is weaker than Goku's base form.
2. Frieza's first form is stronger than SSJ Gohan.
3. While not stated or directly shown, the fact that Piccolo didn't jump in to help Gohan until the last moment (or against Ginyu!Tagoma) strongly suggests he's weaker.
4. Goku and Vegeta are of similar trength.
5. Given the above, Piccolo << base Goku/Vegeta
Part Two: U6 Tournament
1. Frost's assault form fought roughly equally with Goku's base form.
2. Frost's true form lost badly to SSJ Goku (and worse to SSJ Vegeta).
3. Given 1 & 2, the gap between Frost's forms probably isn't all that big, relatively speaking. (maybe 5-10x?)
4. Frost's true form had an advantage over Piccolo, despite injuries sustained fighting Goku, but not enough to allow an easy victory.
5. Given the above, Piccolo seems to have (very) roughly the same strength as base Goku/Vegeta.

I don't think there was much time to train between those arcs, and even if there was I don't see how Piccolo could have caught up. Am I missing something?

BUMP! Everyone on this thread needs to see this!! DBSuper powerscaling has too many problems!!

RoF Saga: Piccolo < SS Gohan < First Form Frieza < Final Form Frieza < Base Goku/Vegeta
U6 Saga: Assault Form Frost < Base Goku/Vegeta/Piccolo < Final Form Frost < SS Goku/Vegeta

I really have no clue what to say about this. Goku offers for Piccolo to train in the time chamber with Vegeta and himself, but Piccolo declines. He states that he wouldn't be able to keep up with Vegeta and Goku. By him saying this he has to be much weaker than Base Goku and Base Vegeta during U6 Saga. He may have not gotten far in his training because it was only five days before the tournament.

Piccolo could have been referring to him not being able to handle Goku and Vegeta training at their full power.
About his fight with Frost, Goku told him he had no chance. Maybe Goku went SSJ just to have the upper-hand, and he was actually close to Frost in base when using his full power? Maybe Frost really lost a good amount of power after fighting Goku (in the anime his legs were shaking) making him closer to Piccolo than Goku.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

He didn't feel any weaker since he didn't lose SSJG's power. It fused with him. Doesn't mean that he possesses SSJG's full power in his lesser forms which he doesn't. He needs to transform into SSJG to use the forms full power which includes the god ki. He only has God's essence in his lesser forms. He only exceeded his previous SSJG level with Super Saiyan Blue.

I get what you're saying and I agree with it, but then how was SS Goku able to keep up with Beerus right after he lost the SSGod form? He would be much weaker than SSGod.

At the level SSJ Goku was at, Beerus was able to dodge Goku with his hands behind his back and sent him away by poking him. SSJ Goku caught Beerus off guard with the fact that he was stronger and faster than before due to God's essence.
As far as their fight is concerned, Beerus just matched his level. He was toying with him and even taunting him saying that since Goku had absorbed SSJG, there should've been more to his power, which doesn't make any sense if he was already operating at the full SSJG power.

[Bullza]

I don't think there was much time to train between those arcs, and even if there was I don't see how Piccolo could have caught up. Am I missing something?

It was about 8 months that passed for him to train. Piccolo appeared to get as strong as Base Gohan but he was still weaker than Buu.

Going by the anime Base Goku is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and the Frost that Piccolo fought is stronger still as Vegeta had to transform against him.

Which would mean an at best SSJ2 level Piccolo was someone holding his own and was potentially capable of beating someone who was possibly at Ultimate Gohan level.

Which is of course a problem considering SSJ2 Vegeta was quickly bested by the SSJ3 level Kid Buu.

Then there's other problems so it really doesn't work because it's as though the Tournament was written (by Toriyama) to be at one level but then Toei made them at another much higher level which then created this mess.