SSJ4 Vs Saiyan Beyond God

[theherodjl]

I understand that SSJG is very much so implied to be stronger than SSJ4 let alone SSJB, however where does Saiyan Beyond God stand against the previously strongest SSJ form?
Saiyan Beyond God is when Goku had absorbed the power of SSJG into his base form and he uses it against final form Freeza, Botamo, Frost's 1st & 3rd form, and Hit initially, it no doubt makes him stronger than his ordinary SSJ3 self for sure and makes a much more convenient state at that.
Does the power-up of SSJ4 actually put Goku or Vegeta on par with even just Saiyan Beyond God?

[Anime Kitten]

My headcanon stuff places Super Saiyan 4 pretty close to God, which I'd also say is not far behind "Saiyan Beyond God," or as I call it, God Goku/Vegeta.

So basically, my headcanon says Super Saiyan 4 < God Goku/Vegeta by a decent margin, though not huge.

[Steven Bloodriver]

I understand that SSJG is very much so implied to be stronger than SSJ4 let alone SSJB, however where does Saiyan Beyond God stand against the previously strongest SSJ form?
Saiyan Beyond God is when Goku had absorbed the power of SSJG into his base form and he uses it against final form Freeza, Botamo, Frost's 1st & 3rd form, and Hit initially, it no doubt makes him stronger than his ordinary SSJ3 self for sure and makes a much more convenient state at that.
Does the power-up of SSJ4 actually put Goku or Vegeta on par with even just Saiyan Beyond God?

If Super Saiyan 4 Goku and Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta from Dragon Ball GT are indeed weaker than the Saiyan Beyond God form displayed by Goku and Vegeta from Dragon Ball Super and the two movies Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods and Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection F before the series was even conceived, then all they need to do so that they can easily catch up to the form's power would be with further mastery of their respective Super Saiyan 4 power.

Even so, Super Saiyan 4 would have been enough to deal with virtually all of the threats featured in Dragon Ball Super if it would have been reached by Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Gotenks, and Future Trunks in the series. As after it had been attained by Kid Goku in GT, it had dramatically increased his base and Super Saiyan power like how Super Saiyan God had done for Goku during his rematch against Beerus, the devastating God of Destruction/Food Critic.

[Perfectionist-Cell]

Ssj4 for the win! A base form with God Ki is not beating ssj4.

[Anime Kitten]

Ssj4 for the win! A base form with God Ki is not beating ssj4.

Just curiously, why do you think that would be?

[ekrolo2]

For the anime? SS4 stomps, regardless if you think Goku is only as strong as Kid Boo or Boohan in Base in GT, with SS4 he'd whoops any Saiyan Beyond God. For the movies? Saiyan Beyond God wins, its almost on par with Super Saiyan God which I think is a great deal stronger than 4.

[theherodjl]

For the anime? SS4 stomps, regardless if you think Goku is only as strong as Kid Boo or Boohan in Base in GT, with SS4 he'd whoops any Saiyan Beyond God. For the movies? Saiyan Beyond God wins, its almost on par with Super Saiyan God which I think is a great deal stronger than 4.

Let me offer a new take on the matter and make it what if Z Goku & Vegeta discovered SSJ4, then how would it stack against Saiyan Beyond God?

[Perfectionist-Cell]

Ssj4 for the win! A base form with God Ki is not beating ssj4.

Just curiously, why do you think that would be?

Because Ssj4 would beat anyone from DBZ just as easily as a base form god ki saiyan would. Base GT Goku is already on Majin Buu level in his base. Ssj4 is beating saiyan beyond god.

[Bullza]

Saiyan Beyond God practically is Super Saiyan God so its much stronger than Super Saiyan 4 which is only at Super Vegito level.

[Anime Kitten]

Because Ssj4 would beat anyone from DBZ just as easily as a base form god ki saiyan would. Base GT Goku is already on Majin Buu level in his base. Ssj4 is beating saiyan beyond god.

Still, it's generally accepted that Base Goku post-SSJG absorption is pretty close to SSJG itself. Saiyan Beyond God Goku is obviously way stronger than that. I think most people also place Super Saiyan God over SSJ4, which is apparently heavily implied.

[Faisal Shourov]

Well one thing for certain, saiyan beyond god is stronger than SSj3 Gotenks

[Anime Kitten]

My headcanon stuff places Super Saiyan 4 pretty close to God, which I'd also say is not far behind "Saiyan Beyond God," or as I call it, God Goku/Vegeta.

So basically, my headcanon says Super Saiyan 4 < God Goku/Vegeta by a decent margin, though not huge.

[spoiler][/spoiler]
Ugh... Well, I can safely say that my opinion has changed, probably for the better. Super Saiyan God would go way above Super Saiyan 4, for a lot of reasons. My point isn't really explaining why, just that I definitely do not hold to what I wrote in this thread.

[TysonWine]

For the anime? SS4 stomps, regardless if you think Goku is only as strong as Kid Boo or Boohan in Base in GT, with SS4 he'd whoops any Saiyan Beyond God. For the movies? Saiyan Beyond God wins, its almost on par with Super Saiyan God which I think is a great deal stronger than 4.

Let me offer a new take on the matter and make it what if Z Goku & Vegeta discovered SSJ4, then how would it stack against Saiyan Beyond God?

I'm glad you made this distinction. Are we talking about the form or the character? The multiplier of the form itself vs the version of Goku that obtained it? I think this is a major detail that often gets lost in this discussion. Even in this thread, people are associating SSJ4 directly with its use by GT Goku, rather than looking at the form by itself. Maybe SSJ4 is synonymous with GT Goku, and I'm the only one unaware of this. It's just like the famous Vegito vs SSJ4 Goku debate. With SSJ, Vegito should be able to beat a Z-version of Goku who has SSJ4. Not so sure about the GT version.

GT Goku vs Super Goku: As far as the character goes, my head cannon tells me that the GT SS4 Goku beats Saiyan Beyond God Goku in super, and may even beat any form of Goku in Super. Wasn't base Goku in GT on par with kid buu? That, on top of all the power multipliers that the SSJ transformations give,should give GT Goku the win over Super Goku. Key words being "GT" and "Super." Base GT Goku is stronger than base super Goku without God ki. I'm not sure if there's a concrete multiplier for SSJ4 so lets assume it's the same as SSJ3. That would be a 4x SSj3 multipler, which is a 1600x increase to a base Goku who's already SSJ3 tier in GT. This is being compared to a Goku in Super who has to go SSJ3 to be equal to base GT Goku. SSJ3 is a 400x multiplier. So, base DB Super Goku would have to double that to be equal to SSJ3 GT Goku. That requires an 800x multiplier and we haven't even gotten to SSJ4 yet. Then you have to multiply that 4x to get to the level of GT SSJ4 Goku. That's a 2400x multiplier needed for base Goku in Super to equal SSJ4 Goku in GT. So, in DB Super, God ki would need a multiplier of 2400 added to base Goku to equal GT SSJ4 Goku. It's just hard for me to believe that the God ki multiplier is THAT high. (My math may be incorrect. It may come out to be 1600x instead of 2400x, which is still large.)

SSJ4 vs God: Now if we're talking strictly about forms, that's an entirely different discussion. You'd either have to give God forms to GT Goku or give SSJ4 form to Super Goku and then compare the versions to each other within the same universe. As far as multipliers go, I'd like to believe God forms surpass SSJ4 just because of the nature of God ki and how it's supposed to be such a big deal. Unfortunately, Future Trunks' saga in Super is a clusterfuck of power levels that really weaken the God transformations. Base Black laughing off SSB Vegeta. SSRage Trunks having his moments against SSRose Black. SSB Vegeta not accidentally killing Trunks in their sparring session. If you believe God forms yield a bigger increase than SSJ4, then you must also believe Rage Trunks increased his strength 100's if not 1000's of times over. The higher the multiplier you give God forms, the higher the multiplier you must give to Rage Trunks.

Until we get concrete multipliers for SSJ4 and the God forms, it's impossible to say which transformation is stronger. Goku doesn't get us any closer to the answer, because he was at two different strengths in different series when he achieved the forms. I will say the best showing of God forms was the the ROF Movie. As Super Goes on, the multiplier that God forms gives appears to be getting lower and lower.

[ryan s]

For the anime? SS4 stomps, regardless if you think Goku is only as strong as Kid Boo or Boohan in Base in GT, with SS4 he'd whoops any Saiyan Beyond God. For the movies? Saiyan Beyond God wins, its almost on par with Super Saiyan God which I think is a great deal stronger than 4.

Let me offer a new take on the matter and make it what if Z Goku & Vegeta discovered SSJ4, then how would it stack against Saiyan Beyond God?

I'm glad you made this distinction. Are we talking about the form or the character? The multiplier of the form itself vs the version of Goku that obtained it? I think this is a major detail that often gets lost in this discussion. Even in this thread, people are associating SSJ4 directly with its use by GT Goku, rather than looking at the form by itself. Maybe SSJ4 is synonymous with GT Goku, and I'm the only one unaware of this. It's just like the famous Vegito vs SSJ4 Goku debate. With SSJ, Vegito should be able to beat a Z-version of Goku who has SSJ4. Not so sure about the GT version.

GT Goku vs Super Goku: As far as the character goes, my head cannon tells me that the GT SS4 Goku beats Saiyan Beyond God Goku in super, and may even beat any form of Goku in Super. Wasn't base Goku in GT on par with kid buu? That, on top of all the power multipliers that the SSJ transformations give,should give GT Goku the win over Super Goku. Key words being "GT" and "Super." Base GT Goku is stronger than base super Goku without God ki. I'm not sure if there's a concrete multiplier for SSJ4 so lets assume it's the same as SSJ3. That would be a 4x SSj3 multipler, which is a 1600x increase to a base Goku who's already SSJ3 tier in GT. This is being compared to a Goku in Super who has to go SSJ3 to be equal to base GT Goku. SSJ3 is a 400x multiplier. So, base DB Super Goku would have to double that to be equal to SSJ3 GT Goku. That requires an 800x multiplier and we haven't even gotten to SSJ4 yet. Then you have to multiply that 4x to get to the level of GT SSJ4 Goku. That's a 2400x multiplier needed for base Goku in Super to equal SSJ4 Goku in GT. So, in DB Super, God ki would need a multiplier of 2400 added to base Goku to equal GT SSJ4 Goku. It's just hard for me to believe that the God ki multiplier is THAT high. (My math may be incorrect. It may come out to be 1600x instead of 2400x, which is still large.)

SSJ4 vs God: Now if we're talking strictly about forms, that's an entirely different discussion. You'd either have to give God forms to GT Goku or give SSJ4 form to Super Goku and then compare the versions to each other within the same universe. As far as multipliers go, I'd like to believe God forms surpass SSJ4 just because of the nature of God ki and how it's supposed to be such a big deal. Unfortunately, Future Trunks' saga in Super is a clusterfuck of power levels that really weaken the God transformations. Base Black laughing off SSB Vegeta. SSRage Trunks having his moments against SSRose Black. SSB Vegeta not accidentally killing Trunks in their sparring session. If you believe God forms yield a bigger increase than SSJ4, then you must also believe Rage Trunks increased his strength 100's if not 1000's of times over. The higher the multiplier you give God forms, the higher the multiplier you must give to Rage Trunks.

Until we get concrete multipliers for SSJ4 and the God forms, it's impossible to say which transformation is stronger. Goku doesn't get us any closer to the answer, because he was at two different strengths in different series when he achieved the forms. I will say the best showing of God forms was the the ROF Movie. As Super Goes on, the multiplier that God forms gives appears to be getting lower and lower.

Omega shenron wasn't a universe buster, so i don't know how you have:
SSJ4 Goku > Super Goku

plus Super: SSJ2 >>>>>SSJ Goku>>>>>base goku >>>>> SSG
etc

it was stated at the end of episode 13 that Goku and beerus were hitting each other with power capable of destroying the universe that settles GT standing a chance

[TysonWine]

it was stated at the end of episode 13 that Goku and beerus were hitting each other with power capable of destroying the universe that settles GT standing a chance

No, that settles GT standing a chance against Beerus. Goku's a different story. I have to assume that universe busting scene had everything to do with Beerus and very little to do with Goku. The reason I say it was all Beerus is because we've seen Beerus and Champa clash and cause universal destruction on two different occasions, at Beerus' house and at the baseball game. Can't take that away from them, as they're two of the strongest in the series and are said to still be significantly above Goku. Goku's gotten stronger since then, but his fights don't do the same destructive damage. We saw Vegito clash with Merged Zamasu, who are both stronger than BOG saga Goku, and they didn't rip the universe apart. They barely destroyed the city. Even in the Goku vs Hit fight, there are lot of exchanges and they weren't distorting time and space (well maybe Hit was ). So, what I'm saying is, based on the lack of destructive capability that stronger versions of Goku has shown, I'm going to have to give credit to Beerus for almost ending the series in episode 13. Goku's got in more than enough fights to showcase his universal destruction powers without the help of the God of Destruction and he's yet to do so. If the requirement for Goku to show this universe ending ability must be done with another individual who's power far surpasses his own, is it really Goku's feat?

plus Super: SSJ2 >>>>>SSJ Goku>>>>>base goku >>>>> SSG

I could've believed this at some point, but base God mode has been on its way out the series since ROF. It had a short return when Goku sparred Monaka (Beerus) but its gone now. Too many ways to shut that down. Just look at the next episode preview, Goku turns SSJ to fight Bergamo. Unless Bergamo that much stronger than his brothers, why would Goku who's stronger than SSG in base go SSJ? Why did Goku go SSJ to spar against Gohan? It doesn't make since to power up and then hold back.

[ryan s]

it was stated at the end of episode 13 that Goku and beerus were hitting each other with power capable of destroying the universe that settles GT standing a chance

No, that settles GT standing a chance against Beerus. Goku's a different story. I have to assume that universe busting scene had everything to do with Beerus and very little to do with Goku. The reason I say it was all Beerus is because we've seen Beerus and Champa clash and cause universal destruction on two different occasions, at Beerus' house and at the baseball game. Can't take that away from them, as they're two of the strongest in the series and are said to still be significantly above Goku. Goku's gotten stronger since then, but his fights don't do the same destructive damage. We saw Vegito clash with Merged Zamasu, who are both stronger than BOG saga Goku, and they didn't rip the universe apart. They barely destroyed the city. Even in the Goku vs Hit fight, there are lot of exchanges and they weren't distorting time and space (well maybe Hit was ). So, what I'm saying is, based on the lack of destructive capability that stronger versions of Goku has shown, I'm going to have to give credit to Beerus for almost ending the series in episode 13. Goku's got in more than enough fights to showcase his universal destruction powers without the help of the God of Destruction and he's yet to do so. If the requirement for Goku to show this universe ending ability must be done with another individual who's power far surpasses his own, is it really Goku's feat?

plus Super: SSJ2 >>>>>SSJ Goku>>>>>base goku >>>>> SSG

I could've believed this at some point, but base God mode has been on its way out the series since ROF. It had a short return when Goku sparred Monaka (Beerus) but its gone now. Too many ways to shut that down. Just look at the next episode preview, Goku turns SSJ to fight Bergamo. Unless Bergamo that much stronger than his brothers, why would Goku who's stronger than SSG in base go SSJ? Why did Goku go SSJ to spar against Gohan? It doesn't make since to power up and then hold back.

that doesn't shut it down at all, you are making assumptions which go against statements, these can be explained. Goku was sparing with Gohan not going all out, and krillin tells Goku not to Go super saiyan and Goku seems to moan implying it is something he does for fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxxXxbh ... DYMANIA%21 here Goku clearly moans he can't go SSJ against krillin, it is also stated the suit didn't hold him back at all.

i don't see why Bergamo can't be that strong, he is after all the strongest in his universe, plus it has been stated he takes his opponents power (l believe).

when the narrator says Goku has the power to bust a universe that settles it



SSJ Goku> GT

[Lord Frieza]

Hmmm well as is stands...

SS4 has no official multiplayer with the only thing that comes close is a guessed of 10x. However is has been officially suggested GT SS4 Gok's power is similar to DBZ Vegito's. The real problem with this is two fold, with one of each going for and against each augment. First of in the SS4 supporter's corner is that this statement is made about Goku during his fight with Baby. However since GT Goku's are often curb-stomps of his enemy or himself, we see very little evidence to show any genuine growth in power from Goku until his power up against the one star dragon.

All in all trying to pin down SS4 actual power boost is a clusterf##k were every augment has some holes or is founded of head cannon. This means that no matter what you say or think you will be wrong no matter what side of the fence you sit. So spare yourself and everyone else a head ache and dont think about it to much.

SS4 makes a saiyan stronger then SS3, thats it. Nothing more can be said.

SSG has a power boost that is measurable, since Goku himself thought fusion would be enough to even try to match Beerus. While this is no official multiplayer, its power based on that official statement must surpass the power boost provided by potara fusion and the 50x SS boost.

Within Super SSB is stronger then SSG.

Thats pretty much everything official you can say about these forms. Use them as you see fit here to help you work this out.

[Saturnine]

Saiyan Beyond God is when Goku had absorbed the power of SSJG into his base form and he uses it against final form Freeza, Botamo, Frost's 1st & 3rd form, and Hit initially, it no doubt makes him stronger than his ordinary SSJ3 self for sure and makes a much more convenient state at that.

Actually it was just Freeza and Copy-Vegeta.

In all the other instances he was definitely not as strong as a Super Saiyan God. It's a retcon like many before and after it, the writers just brought back the regular base to make room for regular Super Saiyan again, because fan-service and shit.

As for the question - Goku as he was against Freeza was said to be stronger than SSj God, so he would definitely be much stronger than SSj4 iin GT.

[Speedster]

Probably there is a partial godly base but that is nowhere near the same tier as SSJG. Toyotaro still uses the SSJG as a separate form that comes well above the SSJ3, let lone the base (and we are talking about the Universe 6 tournament and the Future Trunks arcs). In the anime, Goku just goes SSJ Blue whenever he wants to access God-level power.

Also, let’s not forget that in GT, Goku got much stronger between the Babi arc and the Super Android 17 arc. Goku was easily beaten by Bebi in SSJ3 while Majuub put on a better fight against Bebi than Goku did. Yet, one arc later, Majuub got effortlessly absolutely trashed by Super Android 17 while Goku in SSJ1 was doing fairly well (and waaaaay better than Majuub for sure). If you go by standard multipliers then SSJ4 is like 50,000x stronger than SSJ3 Goku in the Buu arc. Also as far as the anime goes (see DBZ ep. 279 and 280), kid Buu was the strongest Buu, so SSJ4 Goku was like over 50,000x Buuhan!

[ryan s]

Probably there is a partial godly base but that is nowhere near the same tier as SSJG. Toyotaro still uses the SSJG as a separate form that comes well above the SSJ3, let lone the base (and we are talking about the Universe 6 tournament and the Future Trunks arcs). In the anime, Goku just goes SSJ Blue whenever he wants to access God-level power.

Also, let’s not forget that in GT, Goku got much stronger between the Babi arc and the Super Android 17 arc. Goku was easily beaten by Bebi in SSJ3 while Majuub put on a better fight against Bebi than Goku did. Yet, one arc later, Majuub got effortlessly absolutely trashed by Super Android 17 while Goku in SSJ1 was doing fairly well (and waaaaay better than Majuub for sure). If you go by standard multipliers then SSJ4 is like 50,000x stronger than SSJ3 Goku in the Buu arc. Also as far as the anime goes (see DBZ ep. 279 and 280), kid Buu was the strongest Buu, so SSJ4 Goku was like over 50,000x Buuhan!

SSG was adsorbed by Goku and converted into his own power meaning he could still turn into a SSG despite being as strong as one.

Goku struggled against Gotenks buu so he was referring to the pure Buu forms, so he would be 25,000x Buuhan which i doubt anyway tbh.

SSJ4 is stated to have no multiplier but only to draw the user to his limit

Super Saiyan 4
The form which draws out the battle power which Saiyans posses out to the utmost limits is this, Super Saiyan 4!! It’s distinguished by having a different appearance than previous Super Saiyans, with red body fur and long black hair!! It is called Super Saiyan 4 out of convenience, but due to it being a transformation from Golden Oozaru, it would be no exaggeration to call it a different species from all previous Super Saiyans!! Thinking of it as a different species, you could also name such points as the fact that unlike with 3 he has an adult appearance, despite being a transformation of little Goku.