Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

[Mazingerdestro]

There is an image. It's Goku in normal state in the middle of a small crater in the arena.

That's for this week's episode.

Maybe there is no image because there is no episode next week.

Makes sense. Maybe they delay it

[Nasryyy]

when does newtypes come out ?

[Sodhi]

7-9th of each month

[Nasryyy]

thanks i just want to know if karasawa is still on the show

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Are you seriously saying that Dragonball Super has worse animation than Naruto Shippudenn? That show does have some good animation, sometimes. Often it looks closer to this.

I'm sorry, what's wrong with this? I've always heard people complain about the Pain fight, and it's definitely a liberal take, but what's actually wrong with it? I thought the (rubbery?) nature of the fight conveyed the impact fantastically.

I guess I could understand if you're someone who gets extraordinarily hung up over consistency in the character models from episode to episode. Maybe I'm missing something.

[aaronWgamer]

thanks i just want to know if karasawa is still on the show

We all do

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

I'm sorry, what's wrong with this? I've always heard people complain about the Pain fight, and it's definitely a liberal take, but what's actually wrong with it? I thought the (rubbery?) nature of the fight conveyed the impact fantastically.

I guess I could understand if you're someone who gets extraordinarily hung up over consistency in the character models from episode to episode. Maybe I'm missing something.

The problem fans have with this scene (or the episode as a whole) is that the way its animated comes of as "goofy looking" (to the non animation-savvy eyes) when "it should" match with the dark and desperate tone that the story had at that point in the story. Not meeting that criteria breaks their inmerssion in the story.

[BakaManiaHD]

Do you guys have some Karasawa Key animation from HunterxHunter?

[SaiyanGod117]

Are you seriously saying that Dragonball Super has worse animation than Naruto Shippudenn? That show does have some good animation, sometimes. Often it looks closer to this.

I'm sorry, what's wrong with this? I've always heard people complain about the Pain fight, and it's definitely a liberal take, but what's actually wrong with it? I thought the (rubbery?) nature of the fight conveyed the impact fantastically.

I guess I could understand if you're someone who gets extraordinarily hung up over consistency in the character models from episode to episode. Maybe I'm missing something.

It's too sporadic looking and just ends up looking goofy.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

The problem fans have with this scene (or the episode as a whole) is that the way its animated comes of as "goofy looking" (to the non animation-savvy eyes) when "it should" match with the dark and desperate tone that the story had at that point in the story. Not meeting that criteria breaks their immersion in the story.

It's too sporadic looking and just ends up looking goofy.

I think this is a misinterpretation of the work. The purpose isn't to look goofy, it looks wild, utterly uncontrollable! Just like Naruto's emotions at the time, and in direct opposition to his qualities as a Sage. That's what comes across to me when I watch, so it succeeded on some level.

...but I'll drop it here, because it's obviously off-topic.

[Alee9977]

Are you seriously saying that Dragonball Super has worse animation than Naruto Shippudenn? That show does have some good animation, sometimes. Often it looks closer to this.

I'm sorry, what's wrong with this? I've always heard people complain about the Pain fight, and it's definitely a liberal take, but what's actually wrong with it? I thought the (rubbery?) nature of the fight conveyed the impact fantastically.

I guess I could understand if you're someone who gets extraordinarily hung up over consistency in the character models from episode to episode. Maybe I'm missing something.

Really? You complain about tiny details in Yamamuro's drawing and you don't see what's wrong with this?...

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Really? You complain about tiny details in Yamamuro's drawing and you don't see what's wrong with this?...

Totally different beasts. It's been addressed repeatedly on this thread that the composition of still drawings are fundamentally different from animated drawings. The movement of Pain here is exaggerated, but well composed. I already admitted that the flaws I perceived in Yamamuro's drawings could have been a result of my poor depth perception as well, but even so, it falls into most of the pitfalls that Yamamuro usually does. It's only serviceable, and as much as I hate sounding unoriginal, it's boring.

[Alee9977]

Really? You complain about tiny details in Yamamuro's drawing and you don't see what's wrong with this?...

Totally different beasts. It's been addressed repeatedly on this thread that the composition of still drawings are fundamentally different from animated drawings. The movement of pain here is exaggerated, but well composed. I already admitted that the flaws I perceived in Yamamuro's drawings could have been a result of my poor depth perception as well, but even so, it falls into most of the pitfalls that Yamamuro usually does. It's barely serviceable, and as much as I hate sounding unoriginal, it's boring.

I find that scene from Naruto very unnatural and really artifitial, nothing moves like it is supposed to move and Pain's face is exaggerated and off-model in every shot.
Yamamuro's drawing has some flaws too but I don't see the same flaws as you although it is boring as hell, wouldn't be surprised if he tries a Black shot doing that kamehameha pose that Yamamuro draws all the time.

[ArchedThunder]

I think this is a misinterpretation of the work. The purpose isn't to look goofy, it looks wild, utterly uncontrollable! Just like Naruto's emotions at the time, and in direct opposition to his qualities as a Sage. That's what comes across to me when I watch, so it succeeded on some level.

...but I'll drop it here, because it's obviously off-topic.

To many people, myself included, it completely misses the mark. I'm totally okay with going off model and off style for the sake of animation and emotion, but this goes so far out there that it looks goofy to many, again myself included. I don't feel the emotion in that, I get giggles instead.

[SaiyanGod117]

The problem fans have with this scene (or the episode as a whole) is that the way its animated comes of as "goofy looking" (to the non animation-savvy eyes) when "it should" match with the dark and desperate tone that the story had at that point in the story. Not meeting that criteria breaks their immersion in the story.

It's too sporadic looking and just ends up looking goofy.

I think this is a misinterpretation of the work. The purpose isn't to look goofy, it looks wild, utterly uncontrollable! Just like Naruto's emotions at the time, and in direct opposition to his qualities as a Sage. That's what comes across to me when I watch, so it succeeded on some level.

...but I'll drop it here, because it's obviously off-topic.

I know it's post to look expressive and frantic, but it's too over the top.

[Ajay]

I find that scene from Naruto very unnatural and really artificial, nothing moves like it is supposed to move and Pain's face is exaggerated and off-model in every shot.

I don't really want to contribute too much to this since this is a Dragon Ball forum, but here are my brief thoughts (I could honestly talk about this for hours). I've quoted you, but this is more of a general message:

Exaggerated and off-model shouldn't factor into a criticism of this particular work. Its intent is to be exaggerated and unconventional; it's letting a cartoon be a cartoon. I don't think anyone would look at a cubist Picasso piece and call it bad for not matching a real human face. Intent is important and criticism should take that into account. A critique of this should examine whether it's successful in what it aims to achieve -- in fact, a few others have acknowledged its intent, while still disagreeing that it conveys what's required of the scene. That's a good way of going about it, since it at least offers up some room for interesting and non-confrontational discussion.

For me personally, that particular cut is questionable in it success. The thing is, it's a small part in an otherwise hugely successful and breathtaking display of animation. For every experiment producing mixed results, you have spectacular scenes like these:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Especially the latter example. That's the perfect showcase of Yamashita's experimentation here working in tandem with the energy required of the scene. While the aforementioned controversial example dilutes the impact and comes off a little 'goofy', the warping here actually creates immense energy behind the punch. It's marvelous! It absolutely achieves what it's meant to. You can see similar success in the leg smears in the other example; they convey so much momentum and really fit well with the flow of the scene.

You (collectively) don't necessarily have to agree with my opinions, and this is certainly not the forum to have a lengthy discussion about this example in particular, but I hope the take away from this is to ensure you're criticising work with intent in mind. I've spoken about this before with regards to Naoki Tate, and I'm almost glad #72 exists so that I have solid example in which to go, "Look what he's trying to do, and look how much it's not working in comparison to his other work!"

So, uh... Yeah. Keep that in mind, I guess! And to do my moderator duties: please try and bring this back around to Dragon Ball in some way, or it will unfortunately have to stop.

[JulieYBM]

Yamashita Shingo did the key animation and in-between animation for the first 100 cuts alone. He was allowed 5,500 drawings for what is ultimately a six and a half minute segment of an episode storyboarded, directed and animation supervised by an animator whose entire career is based on his loose drawings, Wakabayashi Atsushi. Wakabayashi has been doing this for decades, three-times prior to Naruto Shippuuden Episode #167 on multiple episodes of Naruto and multiple times for dramatic scenes in Yuu Yuu Hakusho. Why it is that Naruto Shippuuden #167 is consistently the only instance that this is picked upon, I don't know, especially given that animation is all about accentuating the unrealistic.

[Alee9977]

All the examples you posted earlier are great, don't feel unnatural and artifitial as the scene we were talking about. But that scene we were discussing I think it didn't reach what it intended in the first place, I know that is how it was supposed to look but it feels to me that it was bad executed that at the end, if I didn't know the context I would think that it is from a comedy show.
And yeah, It is still off-model and exaggerated but I forgot to mention that it was in a bad way.
In Dragon Ball I enjoy and love every scene of loose animation coming from Tate and his scenes looks exaggerated and off-model in a way that not only doesn't ruin the moment, but also helps to feel the dynamic and speed of the fights or characters movements. For example, Jaco's character acting in ep 32 was really great, and Goku's counter in ep 25 or 26 was also a superb, also there is the Vegeta vs Hit fight. All those moments, which have a "similar" animation to that episode of Naruto, ended up being the highlights of their respective episodes and didn't ruin the moment like that scene from Naruto (that is the only scene I have problems with, the others look great to me).

[Octorockandroll]

I think I may as well quickly jump in here and say that I would find that cut to be pretty cool if it were in a different context. Lots of people have said it looks far more goofy than it should and I happen to agree. Now that's not necessarily a bad thing, I like goofy stuff just as much as the next guy. The issue is in the context. It's not supposed to be a goofy scene, it's part of the dramatic final battle that serves as the climax to one of the arcs, and so it doesn't feel like it fits. If you were to show the cut to someone who is completely unfamiliar with Naruto and ask them what the tone of the show is, they'll probably assume it's a lighthearted series with a comedic focus, when that really doesn't describe the series (especially the Shipudden parts) all that well and especially not the fight in question. To loosely tie this abck to dragonball, I'll leave it on this analogy: If Goku punching King Piccolo was animated like this, I wouldn't like it. However, if it was Krillin punching Bacterian (or if you want an example that better uses this style, Handa-kun punching that asshole critic) I would think it's pretty good.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

If you were to show the cut to someone who is completely unfamiliar with Naruto and ask them what the tone of the show is, they'll probably assume it's a lighthearted series with a comedic focus...

You say that, but I don't buy it. Maybe if whoever was watching had the TV muted and ignored the fact that the "goofy" animation was actually displaying the guys beating the shit out of one another, you could mistake it. You'd literally have to not be looking or listening for extended periods to mistake it for comedy.

If Goku punching King Piccolo was animated like this, I wouldn't like it. However, if it was Krillin punching Bacterian (or if you want an example that better uses this style, Handa-kun punching that asshole critic) I would think it's pretty good.

Not the best example. Let's instead make it the Bacterian fight vs. beginning of Goku x Vegeta, since that fight was more animated and more analogous.

Even if we substitute that, it's still ass-backwards. Creativity is best shifted toward climaxes, otherwise, the memorable portions of the narrative would be like DBS Episode 64. If you didn't like it, that's one thing, but the placement is solid.