Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

It might seem like a weird question what with how the anime played out but who do you think is actually stronger

Final Form Frieza (in Resurrection F) or Final Form Frost?

The anime at the time of the Universe 6 saga did make Frost seem stronger. However the manga arguably makes Frost appear to be weaker, maybe even much much weaker.

If Toriyama was asked who was stronger who do you think he would say?

I honestly think he would say Frost is stronger, and Gohan and Piccolo circa ROF are just really fucking weak.

[ChiefWamsutta]

He didn't feel any weaker since he didn't lose SSJG's power. It fused with him. Doesn't mean that he possesses SSJG's full power in his lesser forms which he doesn't. He needs to transform into SSJG to use the forms full power which includes the god ki. He only has God's essence in his lesser forms. He only exceeded his previous SSJG level with Super Saiyan Blue.

I get what you're saying and I agree with it, but then how was SS Goku able to keep up with Beerus right after he lost the SSGod form? He would be much weaker than SSGod.

At the level SSJ Goku was at, Beerus was able to dodge Goku with his hands behind his back and sent him away by poking him. SSJ Goku caught Beerus off guard with the fact that he was stronger and faster than before due to God's essence.
As far as their fight is concerned, Beerus just matched his level. He was toying with him and even taunting him saying that since Goku had absorbed SSJG, there should've been more to his power, which doesn't make any sense if he was already operating at the full SSJG power.

I'd be down to subscribe to this idea. Do you think you could provide some screenshots of the convo about SS Goku being weaker than SSGod Goku? I thought someone said SS Goku was growing stronger than SSGod Goku.

[GreatWyrmGold]

It was about 8 months that passed for him to train.

Oh.
I don't have the best sense of DBS's timeline.

Frost vs. Frieza

Why is this a question? Base Goku trounced true-form Frieza, but fought roughly equally with less-than-true-form Frost. Golden Frieza is stronger than Frost, of course, but going by true forms there's no real argument.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

I get what you're saying and I agree with it, but then how was SS Goku able to keep up with Beerus right after he lost the SSGod form? He would be much weaker than SSGod.

At the level SSJ Goku was at, Beerus was able to dodge Goku with his hands behind his back and sent him away by poking him. SSJ Goku caught Beerus off guard with the fact that he was stronger and faster than before due to God's essence.
As far as their fight is concerned, Beerus just matched his level. He was toying with him and even taunting him saying that since Goku had absorbed SSJG, there should've been more to his power, which doesn't make any sense if he was already operating at the full SSJG power.

I'd be down to subscribe to this idea. Do you think you could provide some screenshots of the convo about SS Goku being weaker than SSGod Goku? I thought someone said SS Goku was growing stronger than SSGod Goku.

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
The full SSJG power fused with Goku, so he didn't feel weaker, but nothing really implies that he was capable of using all of it's power without actually going God.

Vegeta said something along the lines of Goku surpassing Super Saiyan God after he reverted back. Though that's obviously not a power statement. That more so means that Goku went beyond it in the sense that he made the power his own.

[DBZ Macky]

At the level SSJ Goku was at, Beerus was able to dodge Goku with his hands behind his back and sent him away by poking him. SSJ Goku caught Beerus off guard with the fact that he was stronger and faster than before due to God's essence.
As far as their fight is concerned, Beerus just matched his level. He was toying with him and even taunting him saying that since Goku had absorbed SSJG, there should've been more to his power, which doesn't make any sense if he was already operating at the full SSJG power.

I'd be down to subscribe to this idea. Do you think you could provide some screenshots of the convo about SS Goku being weaker than SSGod Goku? I thought someone said SS Goku was growing stronger than SSGod Goku.

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
The full SSJG power fused with Goku, so he didn't feel weaker, but nothing really implies that he was capable of using all of it's power without actually going God.

Vegeta said something along the lines of Goku surpassing Super Saiyan God after he reverted back. Though that's obviously not a power statement. That more so means that Goku went beyond it in the sense that he made the power his own.

This is what I'd call a fucking breakthrough!
It's settled for me, Even SS Goku isn't as strong as SSG but he's stronger than SS3 Gotenks even in base.
Wow, thanks a lot for this! Can't wait to rewatch the episode when it comes out in English!

[pacz360]

Even if people don't wanna accept base goku being god tier both base goku and vegeta are shown to be stronger than ssj3 gotenks which makes u6 fighters stronger than most buu saga fighters.

[IKevinX]

I'd be down to subscribe to this idea. Do you think you could provide some screenshots of the convo about SS Goku being weaker than SSGod Goku? I thought someone said SS Goku was growing stronger than SSGod Goku.

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
The full SSJG power fused with Goku, so he didn't feel weaker, but nothing really implies that he was capable of using all of it's power without actually going God.

Vegeta said something along the lines of Goku surpassing Super Saiyan God after he reverted back. Though that's obviously not a power statement. That more so means that Goku went beyond it in the sense that he made the power his own.

This is what I'd call a fucking breakthrough!
It's settled for me, Even SS Goku isn't as strong as SSG but he's stronger than SS3 Gotenks even in base.
Wow, thanks a lot for this! Can't wait to rewatch the episode when it comes out in English!

But in the end of the fight. When Goku gives his all and pushes the fight back to the outer atmosphere, Beerus smiles and acknowledges the Super Saiyan God's power. With the God OST playing and the light reaching out to all the cosmos. After that he loses his SSJ form.

So he was only able to access all the God's power for a moment.

[Zamasu55]

Even if people don't wanna accept base goku being god tier both base goku and vegeta are shown to be stronger than ssj3 gotenks which makes u6 fighters stronger than most buu saga fighters.

So Piccolo is God tier too.

[pacz360]

Even if people don't wanna accept base goku being god tier both base goku and vegeta are shown to be stronger than ssj3 gotenks which makes u6 fighters stronger than most buu saga fighters.

So Piccolo is God tier too.

not exactly saying big green is but he did train with gohan for 8 months was able to block couple of shots from frost and even had hold him to the point the latter had to use poison to win and broke through vados barrier which can tank attacks from champa himself which even surprises the fat cat .

[Bullza]

When Goku finally notices that he's reverted back to Super Saiyan in Episode 13 he says

"But I don't feel like I got weaker at all."

Beerus then says

"Rather, it fully merged with, and became part of, you."

He says fully merged, not partially merged. When they're fighting in Episode 14 Beerus says while Goku is a Super Saiyan

"Now this is the power of Super Saiyan God!"

Then the narrator in Episode 15 says

"Goku, now beyond the level of God, faces off against the God of Destruction, Beerus"

[Bullza]

And here's another thing that was overlooked.

At the end of Episode 12, SSJG Goku fires a Kamehameha and Beerus fires his own blast.

In episode 13, the narrator said that as they clashed their power threatened to destroy the universe. Elder Kai's says that this clash was the third one. Both of their blasts formed what was said to be a super dense energy and if it dispersed it would destroy the universe.

Beerus used his power to nullify all that energy. In Episode 14 SSJ Goku fires a Kamehameha at Beerus and he just nullifies it no problem.

But then right at the end SSJ Goku powers up fully and fires another Kamehameha and Beerus says

"Looks like this one won't be so easy to nullify, after all.

So obviously Goku was at his most powerful here and his Kamehameha was even more powerful than that super dense universe busting energy from before. Beerus had to use his own blast to counter it.

The two blasts merged together. Beerus then made it even bigger still. SSJ Goku tried to stop it and Beerus says

"Hey, hey, surely even you must've hit your limit by now?

Goku reverts to his Base form and destroys the blast punching it, then tells Beerus

"Don't go trying to tell me what my limits are..."

This all seems very clear to me that at this point Base Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan God because he punched apart an attack that had drastically more power behind it than the Kamehameha that he fired as a Super Saiyan God earlier.

And as it happened in place of where SSJG Goku destroyed the blast in the movie I've always thought this was a way of showing that Goku had become a Saiyan Beyond God here.

[ZombieVito]

It's pretty clear to me now that Saiyan Beyond God was indeed a thing after episode 14. Since Goku couldn't control God ki at will, he couldn't get stronger when transforming into a Super Saiyan. It's only when training with Whis that he starts to do this and unlocks Super Saiyan Blue along with Vegeta.

After training in the RoSaT, he and Vegeta can now fully control their God ki and manage to suppress it at will. It's only here where the other Super Saiyan forms come back into play. The two base theory makes too much sense for me to go back now.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I came up with some estimates:

DBZ and BoG Pre-SSG Absorption: Base Goku = Base Goku (Namek Saga)

BoG Post-SSG Absorption: Base Goku = SS3 Goku (Buu Saga)

RoF: Base Goku = Super Buu

U6: Base Goku = Ultimate Gohan (Buu Saga)

Future Trunks and Universe Survival: Base Goku = Base Vegito (Buu Saga)

[DBZ Macky]

Base Goku was able to fight with True Form Freeza and had a noticeable advantage. SS Gohan on the other hand was defeated by First Form Freeza.

Official power levels have the gap between First and True form Freeza larger than 226x.

I don't think Ultimate Gohan is 226x as strong as SS Gohan, so Goku would still be a lot stronger than even Base Vegito, just in base.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I hope Base Goku gets some great feats in this arc that prove he's God level.

[Bullza]

I hope Base Goku gets some great feats in this arc that prove he's God level.

I'm just hoping it's made clear once and for all. I'm certain that he was portrayed as being stronger than God level in the Battle of God's and Resurrection F sagas.

Probably even in the Universe 6 saga aswell because of what happened with the filler. It just created problems with the story because they weren't intended to be as strong as they were hence all this confusion.

Whether they've corrected it since or not, who knows. I'd prefer it to be more like the manga really.

[Zamasu55]

I came up with some estimates:

DBZ and BoG Pre-SSG Absorption: Base Goku = Base Goku (Namek Saga)

BoG Post-SSG Absorption: Base Goku = SS3 Goku (Buu Saga)

RoF: Base Goku = Super Buu

U6: Base Goku = Ultimate Gohan (Buu Saga)

Future Trunks and Universe Survival: Base Goku = Base Vegito (Buu Saga)

Is the first one a joke?
Goku from the Mecha Frieza arc is already stronger than he was back in Namek, so there's no way he'd be that weak.

[Alruneia]

This has probably been brought up before, but was Merged Zamasu weakened by his fight with Vegito? Future Trunks' power boggles my mind if not, but I don't know if there's anything that says so.
I always figured that the purple goo was because of the half-immortality causing Black's "half" to die during the battle and corrupt the regeneration, which I think would bring the power level down, but that's just headcanon, I'm pretty sure.

[Lord Beerus]

This has probably been brought up before, but was Merged Zamasu weakened by his fight with Vegito? Future Trunks' power boggles my mind if not, but I don't know if there's anything that says so.
I always figured that the purple goo was because of the half-immortality causing Black's "half" to die during the battle and corrupt the regeneration, which I think would bring the power level down, but that's just headcanon, I'm pretty sure.

No, it isn't really implied that Vegetto permanently damages Merged Zamasu. Which just compounds how nonsensical it is that Future Trunks' Genki Dama sword was able to cut Merged Zamasu in half.

[Alruneia]

This has probably been brought up before, but was Merged Zamasu weakened by his fight with Vegito? Future Trunks' power boggles my mind if not, but I don't know if there's anything that says so.
I always figured that the purple goo was because of the half-immortality causing Black's "half" to die during the battle and corrupt the regeneration, which I think would bring the power level down, but that's just headcanon, I'm pretty sure.

No, it isn't really implied that Vegetto permanently damages Merged Zamasu. Which just compounds how nonsensical it is that Future Trunks' Genki Dama sword was able to cut Merged Zamasu in half.

That's what I was afraid of. Oh well.