I find Goku to be the worst character in this show

[precita]

I think Goku's personality in Super changes depending on who the writer for each ep is. Some writers purposely make him more goofy, stupid or naive, others do not.

[Ki Breaker]

Goku's character has been on point from this arc's start..
What are the chances Toyotaro is helping them out on this case?
I feel the comment of information going to them from him is really what is causing this good shift

[HeroR]

My two cents on Goku as a character for what it's worth;

Overall Goku seems like the most alien character on the show with his personality which considering he was raised by humans is frankly bizarre. Vegeta's adapted to human ideals by Super's run better than Goku has and Vegeta was raised to be a savage killer.

Goku also seems kind of inconsistant as a character; he tries to do the right thing and there's times where he shows genuine concern and support for those around him(encouraging Krillin and Gohan recently spring to mind) but he's equally okay with risking the universe's very existence and thus those same people's lives on being able to counter Beerus' punches in the very first arc of Super.
The Dragonballs being a magic fix all could be part of the reason to blame for such a blase attitude, but in-universe everyone bar Goku seems rather concerned about NOT letting everyone die. Only Goku has this weird "ah, who cares?" attitude regarding mortality despite the majority of the cast having also died in the past and knowing in their world death is not permenant.

Goku as a character is entertaining to watch because his constant universe endangering pushes the plot forward. Doesn't neccesarily make him a likable, relatable or even well written protagonist. More like a plot tool. "This bad thing needs to happen to get the arc started. Let's have Goku accidentally cause it through his desire to fight strong opponents again."

Goku wasn't raised by humans his entire life. He spent a lot of his early childhood by himself in the woods. So Goku is a feral child and an alien, which is why he comes off as odd even compared to Vegeta.

Also, everyone in the cast have been carefree about death at one point. Everyone was willing to let Super Buu kill Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo when they were trapped in Hyperbolic Time Chamber because they could just be wished back. Only Bulma called out how cruel that was. Roshi also assured Bulma when Yamcha was killed that they could just wish him back. Krillin also got on Vegeta for rushing Cell after Trunks was killed because, 'he can wished back'.

I think Goku's personality in Super changes depending on who the writer for each ep is. Some writers purposely make him more goofy, stupid or naive, others do not.

It really doesn't since Super doesn't have that many writers. Since the Champa Saga there have been one main writer with some guest ones every now and then.

Goku's character has been on point from this arc's start..
What are the chances Toyotaro is helping them out on this case?
I feel the comment of information going to them from him is really what is causing this good shift

Really low since Toei doesn't used characterization from the Super manga even when the manga was ahead during the Champa Saga.

[Kanassa]

Dude, this is fiction, why couldn't someone root for an irredeemable monster if they want to? If a story wants you to root for a bastard, it's your choice as the reader/viewer to do so, don't impose what can or can't be done on others.

In Code Geass I was definitely rooting for Lelouch despite his brutal ways.

In Death Note I was fcking behind Kira=Light the whole freaking time, pissed me off when Neir won in the end, woulda been happy with Ryuzaki but still I woulda been happy with Light being the winner in the end. Same with Lelouch.

Should we really count Lelouch in this context? Yeah, the story wants you to question his morals, but it does try to get you to root for him. Aside from the ending stretch where the plot tricks you for the purpose of Lelouch's
[spoiler]"Become most hated guy in the world so people can be happy when they kill me'' plan.[/spoiler]

The problem is it's a matter of story framing. A story should not be framed for you to root for an unlikable character.

But my point is that a likeable character doesn't have to be a good person. THe Joker is likeable and he's one of the most morally depraved fictional characters in existence.

In all fairness the Joker is SUPPOSED to be an antagonist so him doing horrific things is part of his charm as an antagonist. If Batman started being doing equally horrific things I don't think we could get behind him as the heroic protagonist.

I know the Joker is an antagonist, but I'm saying that under the right writer, he could be good protaganist while still staying the same. Because he's likable and interesting enough to carry a story. And of course I would't be behind Batman as a heroic character when he's committing equally horrible deeds for no reason. Because it's out of character and inconsistent, not because they're bad things. That's why I avoid Frank Miller's work.

[SansrivaaL]

Well in anime form I'm with this guy when it comes to Goku, preach it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wH6WPgaDqcw
I wonder if its not against the rules to post short vids on anime?

[Nano]

In case people haven't noticed, the people starting these threads tend to have low post counts. They aren't frequent hardcore fans.
They follow the show casually, came in here to see what's going on with one of their favorite series and to vent their frustrations.

This is literally what brought me here during the RoF time period. I was in disbelief about what was happening to the franchise so I came here searching for answers.
We are JUST getting to the point where the casual western audiences who will be a lot less understanding of all this. But we will see.

So according to you, people who don't no life this forum are casuals. Lmao great logic!

I'm a westerner. I've been watching and following the DB franchise since the 80s. Wow look at that, my post count is low. I'm a casual... according to your statement. Lmao GTFOH. Smh kids these days.

[LunarMoon]

Gokuu isn't a real person, he's a character in fiction. He doesn't have to be the sort to really care about that sort of thing, especially when he isn't actually responsible for the act you are accusing him of. It's okay to like characters who go against real-world morality. That's the very purpose for which fiction was conceptualized. Fiction is fiction because the rules of reality do not have to apply in any sort of consistent context. Fiction is merely a canvas for expressing ideas. I find it concerning that internet users in general seem incapable of separating the two.

Likability makes the difference between a sad and a happy ending, between a grimdark and depressing world in which the villains eat babies and get away with it, and a more idealistic setting in which the heroes always win, as well as how most people will react emotionally to a given character's victories or defeats; it's why people threatened to quit Game of Thrones after one character was stabbed to death only to cheer when another one was was eaten alive. In general, people enjoy seeing good people rewarded, even in fiction, and to see evil people punished for their actions, particularly since this isn't always the case in the real world. It has nothing to do with a disconnect from reality and almost everything to do with empathy.

Dude, this is fiction, why couldn't someone root for an irredeemable monster if they want to? If a story wants you to root for a bastard, it's your choice as the reader/viewer to do so, don't impose what can or can't be done on others.

You can if you want to I guess. I mean It's pretty fucking weird to be like, "I hope Calvin Candy (Django Unchained) puts all the blacks into slavery" but I GUESS you can. The problem is it's a matter of story framing. A story should not be framed for you to root for an unlikable character. That's simply bad writing. If the Wizard of Oz was framed to make you root for the wicked witch of the west to kill Dorothy, it wouldn't be nearly as famous.

Whether or not a character is likable is subjective. I find Light & Lelouch likable despite the atrocities they've committed.

Light and Lelouch aren't really comparable to how Goku is being portrayed. People actually agree with the former two and even with Light, who is a good deal less heroic than Lelouch, people will regularly trot out the fact that he reduced the world's crime by 70%; the people who didn't like him, and who were rooting for L, the deuteragonist, eventually saw Light get his comeuppance, while we already know from EoZ that Goku's going to be a karma houdini. Plenty of people also went through the entirety of Death Note rooting for L and hate Near for being his replacement. Code Geass and Death Note were smart in that they presented two opposing viewpoints and effectively gave the viewer the choice in which one they decided to root for. Both viewpoints were fundamentally more sound, and sympathetic, than committing genocide for a bit of fun and excitement.

[Lord Frieza]

Yes, people can. If a character is entertaining and interesting enough, they can get people to root for them despite their deplorable morals.

No. You can't. You can like the character. Joker and Yoshikage Kira come to mind, but the story doesn't expect you to root for them to win. You don't root for the Joker, you root for Batman. You don't root for Kira, you root for Josuke. Even Death Note which had a deplorable as fuck protagonist didn't actually expect you to root for him. Even though Light was the focus, the ones you were really led to root for were Light and Mello.

Yes, you can. Character like the Joker and Light are the kind that can make you root for them because they're interesting and entertaining enough that you'd want to see what they do next, I would love a well written story with Joker as the protagonist, just to see how crazy he goes when the narrative is so much more heavily focused on him. To root for a character, it is not necessary for their morals to align with the audience.

Got to say you really can.

I was rooting for Black and Zamasu all through the last arc, I've always liked the villains more then the heroes (in everything no just DB) and I have been supporting the Trio De Dangers during this part of the exhibition tournament.

The only time I've ever like heroes more is when it turned out my universe's fighters (U11) are all heroes.

[TekTheNinja]

No. You can't. You can like the character. Joker and Yoshikage Kira come to mind, but the story doesn't expect you to root for them to win. You don't root for the Joker, you root for Batman. You don't root for Kira, you root for Josuke. Even Death Note which had a deplorable as fuck protagonist didn't actually expect you to root for him. Even though Light was the focus, the ones you were really led to root for were Light and Mello.

Yes, you can. Character like the Joker and Light are the kind that can make you root for them because they're interesting and entertaining enough that you'd want to see what they do next, I would love a well written story with Joker as the protagonist, just to see how crazy he goes when the narrative is so much more heavily focused on him. To root for a character, it is not necessary for their morals to align with the audience.

Got to say you really can.

I was rooting for Black and Zamasu all through the last arc, I've always liked the villains more then the heroes (in everything no just DB) and I have been supporting the Trio De Dangers during this part of the exhibition tournament.

The only time I've ever like heroes more is when it turned out my universe's fighters (U11) are all heroes.

1: Everything LunarMoon said last post was absolutely perfect. Thank you very much for the well written post mate.

2: The trio of dangers aren't villains as of now. they're the real heroes of episode 81.

3: Except in all the examples you give the bad guys are the bad guys and the heroes are the heroes. Here the guy who's supposed to be a hero is actually evil. Seriously episode 81 made him actually evil.

[Kanassa]

3: Except in all the examples you give the bad guys are the bad guys and the heroes are the heroes. Here the guy who's supposed to be a hero is actually evil. Seriously episode 81 made him actually evil.

Goku isn't supposed to be a hero, he's simply supposed to be the protagonist. And no, episode 81 didn't make him evil.

[HeroR]

3: Except in all the examples you give the bad guys are the bad guys and the heroes are the heroes. Here the guy who's supposed to be a hero is actually evil. Seriously episode 81 made him actually evil.

Goku isn't supposed to be a hero, he's simply supposed to be the protagonist. And no, episode 81 didn't make him evil.

'Righteous' hero. It was never said he wasn't a hero at all.

[Asura]

Goku isn't supposed to be a hero, he's simply supposed to be the protagonist. And no, episode 81 didn't make him evil.

You say that, but yet he is a hero in every single DB and DBZ arc (although arguably the first martial arts tournament in DB had no hero, nor any real villains). In every single arc he is fighting to save people. Sure, he wants to fight them for his own selfish reasons as well, but never at the expense of saving people. Goku literally kills himself in the Cell arc so that the people of Earth can live in peace since he felt he always attracted evil. Goku was always the protagonist, and the hero.

In this arc, Goku is the protagonist and the villain. That's not cool. Saying that Goku was always like this isn't even an excuse anymore. If Kid Goku were in there, and just heard the news that the universes would be destroyed because of him, and all the other universes were getting pissed at him, you can bet your ass he wouldn't be smiling his smug ass grin and yammering about fighting stronger people. He would probably feel pressure, perhaps guilt, and realize that he might have fucked up, but he knows that he can make it right somehow, and if he has to beat all those strong fighters (which he wanted to anyway!), he'll do it now for all universes.

[Geekdom101]

Goku isn't supposed to be a hero, he's simply supposed to be the protagonist. And no, episode 81 didn't make him evil.

You say that, but yet he is a hero in every single DB and DBZ arc (although arguably the first martial arts tournament in DB had no hero, nor any real villains). In every single arc he is fighting to save people. Sure, he wants to fight them for his own selfish reasons as well, but never at the expense of saving people. Goku literally kills himself in the Cell arc so that the people of Earth can live in peace since he felt he always attracted evil. Goku was always the protagonist, and the hero.

In this arc, Goku is the protagonist and the villain. That's not cool. Saying that Goku was always like this isn't even an excuse anymore. If Kid Goku were in there, and just heard the news that the universes would be destroyed because of him, and all the other universes were getting pissed at him, you can bet your ass he wouldn't be smiling his smug ass grin and yammering about fighting stronger people. He would probably feel pressure, perhaps guilt, and realize that he might have fucked up, but he knows that he can make it right somehow, and if he has to beat all those strong fighters (which he wanted to anyway!), he'll do it now for all universes.

I actually LIKE the idea that he's being villified by everybody else. Makes the stakes guy. Hes like Steve Austin in the 1998 Royal Rumble.

[Cipher]

The only episode Goku's been written in-character this arc is 77, when he was courting danger but not yet glibly continuing to be cheerful in the face of the consequences. I still love the idea of this arc, and think the central premise is a natural way to mine conflict from Goku's personality and the new company he keeps, but man, the execution since that initial setup episode has felt so off.

We're definitely in Cell territory, where Goku seems not to care about terrorizing people so long as he gets to test his power.

The thing that kills me is that there's no reason for Goku to continue to be so carefree about things. The conflict of the arc would still be present were he to acknowledge the jam he's gotten everyone into. The other universes could still be out to get him.

[SansrivaaL]

The only episode Goku's been written in-character this arc is 77, when he was courting danger but not yet glibly continuing to be cheerful in the face of the consequences. I still love the idea of this arc, and think the central premise is a natural way to mine conflict from Goku's personality and the new company he keeps, but man, the execution since that initial setup episode has felt so off.

We're definitely in Cell territory, where Goku seems not to care about terrorizing people so long as he gets to test his power.

The thing that kills me is that there's no reason for Goku to continue to be so carefree about things. The conflict of the arc would still be present were he to acknowledge the jam he's gotten everyone into. The other universes could still be out to get him.

Could be that the excitement is getting the better out of his supposed reaction to all this, like its overflowing.

[Legion]

This Goku is really poorly written and is one dimensional character. Is just fight fight fight and fight. People say that is IC but for me no. Fight is not his only trait.

[Mazingerdestro]

I have to admit that he was written terribly in the latest episode.
No problem been stubborn or seek good fights but here he was presented like an asshole who doesn't care if other people die.
Toei tries to play the "he will gain their trust later" plot but it feels like they paid a kindergarten to do it.
Worse part is that his universe doesn't understand that. Instead of Beerus saying "that idiot, acting like a moron made everyone his enemy", his answer when he heard Bergamo exposing him was "he will make Goku look like a bad guy". No Beerus !!!!! Goku in that episode was the bad guy. Bergamo was the hero fighting for everyone. Hearing Bergamo calling Goku "demon" or "a person that doesn't care if people die" really got me annoyed.
I can understand the production facing issues with animation but sometimes the worse part of these episodes is the plot structure and the dialogues.Through guy who wrote that episode must have spend as little time as possible, or he must be completely unaware of db as a series.

Unless Toei later reveals that Goku has a plan beyond dragonballs, that specific episode is the worse written material in db. Heck if we see Goku later saying "we have db so everything will be fine!!!" and Grand Priest replied something like "resurection of the other universes is forbidden" making Goku start thinking how much of an idiot he was during this tournament, I would gladly say that Toei tricked me....but who am I kidding.....Toei pulling such a great plot......nah.....make Goku act like the villain and then have everyone magically love him......thank God Toyotaro will present something great in the manga.

I remind people. Goku is a battle maniac idiot but he never once toyed with other people's lives in order to have fun.

[coola]

Toriyama says he didn't like hero Goku Toei made him to be, but, to be honest, there were many moments, where Goku was shown to be pure hearted in manga (Against Akkuman where he withstand his evil beam, with his now lust for fight, he wouldn't survived that, or where Kaio-Sama said Goku have crystal clear heart) and i know pure heart can be interpret in many ways, but that's how Toei understood it i personally like him in the early movies most, he always give villains choose to leave, if not, they die, and at same time, he cares for his family and friends.

[TheMikado]

I have to admit that he was written terribly in the latest episode.
No problem been stubborn or seek good fights but here he was presented like an asshole who doesn't care if other people die.
Toei tries to play the "he will gain their trust later" plot but it feels like they paid a kindergarten to do it.
Worse part is that his universe doesn't understand that. Instead of Beerus saying "that idiot, acting like a moron made everyone his enemy", his answer when he heard Bergamo exposing him was "he will make Goku look like a bad guy". No Beerus !!!!! Goku in that episode was the bad guy. Bergamo was the hero fighting for everyone. Hearing Bergamo calling Goku "demon" or "a person that doesn't care if people die" really got me annoyed.
I can understand the production facing issues with animation but sometimes the worse part of these episodes is the plot structure and the dialogues.Through guy who wrote that episode must have spend as little time as possible, or he must be completely unaware of db as a series.

Unless Toei later reveals that Goku has a plan beyond dragonballs, that specific episode is the worse written material in db. Heck if we see Goku later saying "we have db so everything will be fine!!!" and Grand Priest replied something like "resurection of the other universes is forbidden" making Goku start thinking how much of an idiot he was during this tournament, I would gladly say that Toei tricked me....but who am I kidding.....Toei pulling such a great plot......nah.....make Goku act like the villain and then have everyone magically love him......thank God Toyotaro will present something great in the manga.

I remind people. Goku is a battle maniac idiot but he never once toyed with other people's lives in order to have fun.

I certainly have to agree, but at this point I'm waiting for international reactions to the dub when it gets over there.

[Mazingerdestro]

I have to admit that he was written terribly in the latest episode.
No problem been stubborn or seek good fights but here he was presented like an asshole who doesn't care if other people die.
Toei tries to play the "he will gain their trust later" plot but it feels like they paid a kindergarten to do it.
Worse part is that his universe doesn't understand that. Instead of Beerus saying "that idiot, acting like a moron made everyone his enemy", his answer when he heard Bergamo exposing him was "he will make Goku look like a bad guy". No Beerus !!!!! Goku in that episode was the bad guy. Bergamo was the hero fighting for everyone. Hearing Bergamo calling Goku "demon" or "a person that doesn't care if people die" really got me annoyed.
I can understand the production facing issues with animation but sometimes the worse part of these episodes is the plot structure and the dialogues.Through guy who wrote that episode must have spend as little time as possible, or he must be completely unaware of db as a series.

Unless Toei later reveals that Goku has a plan beyond dragonballs, that specific episode is the worse written material in db. Heck if we see Goku later saying "we have db so everything will be fine!!!" and Grand Priest replied something like "resurection of the other universes is forbidden" making Goku start thinking how much of an idiot he was during this tournament, I would gladly say that Toei tricked me....but who am I kidding.....Toei pulling such a great plot......nah.....make Goku act like the villain and then have everyone magically love him......thank God Toyotaro will present something great in the manga.

I remind people. Goku is a battle maniac idiot but he never once toyed with other people's lives in order to have fun.

I certainly have to agree, but at this point I'm waiting for international reactions to the dub when it gets over there.

99.9% FUNimation will patch it. Schemmel will say something like "I know I am stubborn but I want the challenge". Basically they will make Goku admit that he is wrong but still wanting to fight and showing that even now he thinks about the other universes.
My biggest concern is during the mafuba scene. I can't imagine Schemmel saying "oops I forgot the talisma"