Unpopular DB opinions

[Lord Beerus]

The whole Super Saiyan thing was ruined starting in the Cell arc and completely by the Buu arc at least SSGSS is bringing the uniqueness back part of the reason I love it, I would still prefer it if Goku was the only one to gain access to it but eh I'll take what I can get.

The mystique of Super Saiyan was destroyed the second it was achieved off-screen by Vegeta, of all people.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

The whole Super Saiyan thing was ruined starting in the Cell arc and completely by the Buu arc at least SSGSS is bringing the uniqueness back part of the reason I love it, I would still prefer it if Goku was the only one to gain access to it but eh I'll take what I can get.

The mystique of Super Saiyan was destroyed the second it was achieved off-screen by Vegeta, of all people.

Yup. Doesn't feel deserved at all, Goku went through hell against Freeza and Vegeta turns up and be like boom SS. Poor writing to move th story along. (Cell arc in general is like that tbh)

[Lord Beerus]

The whole Super Saiyan thing was ruined starting in the Cell arc and completely by the Buu arc at least SSGSS is bringing the uniqueness back part of the reason I love it, I would still prefer it if Goku was the only one to gain access to it but eh I'll take what I can get.

The mystique of Super Saiyan was destroyed the second it was achieved off-screen by Vegeta, of all people.

Yup. Doesn't feel deserved at all, Goku went through hell against Freeza and Vegeta turns up and be like boom SS. Poor writing to move th story along. (Cell arc in general is like that tbh)

The reason Vegeta gave as to how he attained the form is just dumb. It flies right in the face of everything that happened on Namek and retroactively ruins all of the symbolism with regards to how Goku became a SSJ in the first place. But because for a lot of people Vegeta had suffered so much on Namek, they were willing to brush all that aside because they felt he deserved that moment. Vegeta becoming a SSJ in circumstances that he did was just flat-out bad writing.

[ekrolo2]

The reason Vegeta gave as to how he attained the form is just dumb. It flies right in the face of everything that happened on Namek and retroactively ruins all of the symbolism with regards to how Goku became a SSJ in the first place. But because for a lot of people Vegeta had suffered so much on Namek, they were willing to brush all that aside because they felt he deserved that moment. Vegeta becoming a SSJ3 in circumstances that he did was just flat-out bad writing.

The series should've ended with Freeza period.

[Lord Beerus]

The reason Vegeta gave as to how he attained the form is just dumb. It flies right in the face of everything that happened on Namek and retroactively ruins all of the symbolism with regards to how Goku became a SSJ in the first place. But because for a lot of people Vegeta had suffered so much on Namek, they were willing to brush all that aside because they felt he deserved that moment. Vegeta becoming a SSJ in circumstances that he did was just flat-out bad writing.

The series should've ended with Freeza period.

Honestly, I think sometimes Dragon Ball should have ended after the Freeza fight. The final of the battle between Goku and Freeza just screamed "This is the end". But the Majin Boo was so much, despite how obvious it was Toriyama was totally fucking burned out on Dragon Ball after the halfway point in that arc. The Android/Cell arc should have happened before the Freeza arc.

[Bansho64]

Yup. Doesn't feel deserved at all, Goku went through hell against Freeza and Vegeta turns up and be like boom SS. Poor writing to move th story along. (Cell arc in general is like that tbh)

I disagree. I thought that moment was intense and very well done. I never really felt that SSJ meant nothing until Goten and Trunks nabbed it. It ain't the worst thing the franchise has done but I'd be lying if I said I didn't think it was undeserving.

[ekrolo2]

Yup. Doesn't feel deserved at all, Goku went through hell against Freeza and Vegeta turns up and be like boom SS. Poor writing to move th story along. (Cell arc in general is like that tbh)

I disagree. I thought that moment was intense and very well done. I never really felt that SSJ meant nothing until Goten and Trunks nabbed it. It ain't the worst thing the franchise has done but I'd be lying if I said I didn't think it was undeserving.

If a Vegeta with some development did it, it would've worked. Like if you somehow had the Majin Boo arc happen first and Vegeta selling his soul to Babidi is what let him attain that power, it would've worked a lot better.

But on Namek the criteria is very simple: if you're an evil scum sucking bastard, like Vegeta, you can't get Super Saiyan. Then a few chapters later, being a wholly evil scum sucking bastard is what lets Vegeta become one anyway. This does not compute.

[Lord Beerus]

Yup. Doesn't feel deserved at all, Goku went through hell against Freeza and Vegeta turns up and be like boom SS. Poor writing to move th story along. (Cell arc in general is like that tbh)

I disagree. I thought that moment was intense and very well done. I never really felt that SSJ meant nothing until Goten and Trunks nabbed it. It ain't the worst thing the franchise has done but I'd be lying if I said I didn't think it was undeserving.

If a Vegeta with some development did it, it would've worked. Like if you somehow had the Majin Boo arc happen first and Vegeta selling his soul to Babidi is what let him attain that power, it would've worked a lot better.

But on Namek the criteria is very simple: if you're an evil scum sucking bastard, like Vegeta, you can't get Super Saiyan. Then a few chapters later, being a wholly evil scum sucking bastard is what lets Vegeta become one anyway. This does not compute.

Exactly. The whole point of the Namek/Freeza arc was: Don't be like Vegeta and you can become a SSJ. Then Toriyama horribly backtracked on that and practically handed Vegeta the Super Saiyan form.

[KorgDTR2000]

My unpopular opinion: The Cell arc is the low point of the manga. It is weirdly un-Dragon Ball.

The narrative from the beginning through Namek is so clear and strong. Goku grows in power and keeps achieving new highs, culminating in him becoming a legendary warrior and the strongest man in the universe. It also continues the adventure aspect of hunting the Dragon Balls. They've searched all over Earth and now their adventure takes them into space. It's a perfect ending.

Then it all gets dragged back down to Earth and it changes. The scope is way smaller, although it does cross timelines which was neat. The villain doesn't have any real weight behind him like Freeza did. The SSJ concept is dragged out in all directions, with multiple characters having the power and there being multiple stages to the power. And the Dragon Balls are officially relegated to the backseat, with the adventure of having to find them completely gone.

Oddly, things go back on track with Boo. The scope expands further, as now the villain isn't just a threat to the living realm but a threat to the afterlife. The gods come into the picture more and all of the new powers have a very supernatural feel to them. SSJ3 is really only obtainable and practical in death, fusion is pure magic with potara fusion being a Godly power, the upgrade Gohan receives could be seen as a divine blessing and Babidi's ability to possess people evokes Satan (with one of the early enemies in the story being an image of Satan).

And honestly, the story could have worked out going straight to Boo. If Goku had died on Namek and the next time we saw him was when he returned for a day during the Tenkaichi Budokai, the story isn't dramatically different other than taming the power levels. Vegeta could achieve SSJ through Babidi's possession and SSJ2 could be Gohan getting his potential unlocked by the old fart.

[Gog]

Honestly I don't know why there was such a titanic uproar in the fandom when Vegetto was revealed to only have a one hour time limit, even though the statement of him being permanent was retconned in the very same arc that he appeared in. So yeah no idea on this one and I also don't mind the revelation in on itself.

[Zephyr]

My unpopular opinion: The Cell arc is the low point of the manga.

I think that's a pretty widespread view. Around here at least. And I agree with it, even if I still find it to be a really enjoyable arc.

Honestly I don't know why there was such a titanic uproar in the fandom when Vegetto was revealed to only have a one hour time limit, even though the statement of him being permanent was retconned in the very same arc that he appeared in. So yeah no idea on this one and I also don't mind the revelation in on itself.

It wasn't retconned, it was worked around. The fact that the bad air inside of Buu was able to break an otherwise permanent bond didn't mean that the bond wasn't still supposed to otherwise be permanent.

When something is an established in-universe fact for 20 years, I don't see how it being retconned could be expected to have anything but a titanic uproar.

One of the things I don't like about the retcon is that it's easier to do than the dance, and it's supposed to produce a more powerful fusion. It being permanent was the only thing keeping it from being stupidly broken. There's no longer any drawback. The other thing I don't like about it is the fact that they didn't even need it in order to break Vegetto up: Super already established a few arcs prior that the Namekian Dragon Balls can separate a potara fusion. Why waste that perfectly good setup?

[Gog]

It wasn't retconned, it was worked around. The fact that the bad air inside of Buu was able to break an otherwise permanent bond didn't mean that the bond wasn't still supposed to otherwise be permanent.

What do you mean worked around? The fact that a supposedly permanent fusion was broken apart by bad air is just completely and utterly preposterous and it goes against what Elder Kai stated before hand in that the fusion was supposed to be permanent, no if's no buts. The one hour retcon actually managed to fix that problem.

When something is an established in-universe fact for 20 years, I don't see how it being retconned could be expected to have anything but a titanic uproar.

Eh, I would consider it to be semi established as the supposedly permanent fusion defused. But you have a point it is rather jarring to one day find out that Vegetto is no longer permanent.

One of the things I don't like about the retcon is that it's easier to do than the dance, and it's supposed to produce a more powerful fusion.

But then does that not fit into the Elder Kaioshin's statement that the Potara Fusion is just simply flat out better than the regular old fusion dance? It being better than the dance in every way just further solidifies that statement.

It being permanent was the only thing keeping it from being stupidly broken. There's no longer any drawback. The other thing I don't like about it is the fact that they didn't even need it in order to break Vegetto up: Super already established a few arcs prior that the Namekian Dragon Balls can separate a potara fusion. Why waste that perfectly good setup?

But the Potara fusion only lasts about ten minutes in Super Saiyan Blue form, that's not even enough time to kill your main big bad enemy. But yeah you do have a point they didn't even need to do the retcon in the end. But eh, Vegetto sells

[Zephyr]

What do you mean worked around? The fact that a supposedly permanent fusion was broken apart by bad air is just completely and utterly preposterous and it goes against what Elder Kai stated before hand in that the fusion was supposed to be permanent, no if's no buts. The one hour retcon actually managed to fix that problem.

They didn't split up and say "oh, I guess Old Kai was wrong", Old Kai didn't say "oh I guess I was wrong". The fact that the bad air is brought up points to "Old Kai was just wrong" not being the intended message. We saw three potara fusions: Old Kaioshin, Kibitoshin, and Vegetto. Only one of them defused, and a reason was given. It wasn't a mystery. The Potara was still permanent, sans bad air in Buu's body. Otherwise, "guys, maybe the potara is just actually not really permanent!" would have been a remotely common theory post-Buu arc, yet I don't remember seeing that sort of musing a single time in my entire fandom.

The bad air explanation was perfectly adequate. Buu's magic and the Kaioshin's magic are shown to be at odds throughout the arc: Babidi can't use the Kaioshin's ki to contribute to Buu's revival and Buu absorbing the Kaioshin altered him in ways that absorbing others didn't. That the air inside of his body also breaks up an otherwise permanent fusion using magical Kaioshin earrings fits perfectly well into that. This wasn't a problem before.

It being better than the dance in every way just further solidifies that statement.

Yes, and that's my point. Before, we had two seperate, differently viable forms of fusion. Now one is 100% obsolete. I don't see why having a less diverse palette with which to combat threats is a good thing in a series about combating threats.

[Doctor.]

One of the things I don't like about the retcon is that it's easier to do than the dance, and it's supposed to produce a more powerful fusion. It being permanent was the only thing keeping it from being stupidly broken. There's no longer any drawback. The other thing I don't like about it is the fact that they didn't even need it in order to break Vegetto up: Super already established a few arcs prior that the Namekian Dragon Balls can separate a potara fusion. Why waste that perfectly good setup?

It's precisely the other way around. It being permanent is what makes it absurdly broken, especially when Boo is on your side now. It having a time limit and, like the fusion dance, the limit shortening the more power you use, pretty much establishes that fusion is useless and will no longer be used.

[Gog]

They didn't split up and say "oh, I guess Old Kai was wrong", Old Kai didn't say "oh I guess I was wrong". The fact that the bad air is brought up points to "Old Kai was just wrong" not being the intended message. We saw three potara fusions: Old Kaioshin, Kibitoshin, and Vegetto.
Only one of them defused, and a reason was given. It wasn't a mystery. The Potara was still permanent, sans bad air in Buu's body. Otherwise, "guys, maybe the potara is just actually not really permanent!" would have been a remotely common theory post-Buu arc, yet I don't remember seeing that sort of musing a single time in my entire fandom.

But Old Kai was technically wrong in the statement, one of the fusion's still did split up. But the reason that was given was just incredibly stupid and preposterous. But yeah it's totally one hundred 100% a retcon, which I consider to be a good retcon as it just swept the embarrassing reason 'it was just bad air' under the rug and into irrelevancy. Also my fandom are you Akira Toriyama , but regardless the fandom also thinks that King Cold was in his true form on Earth.

And even then the fandom never actually believed the statement of it being bad air, heck I find more theories about it being magic or something. Which is a problem as the only reason we got is bad air.

The bad air explanation was perfectly adequate. Buu's magic and the Kaioshin's magic are shown to be at odds throughout the arc: Babidi can't use the Kaioshin's ki to contribute to Buu's revival and Buu absorbing the Kaioshin altered him in ways that absorbing others didn't. That the air inside of his body also breaks up an otherwise permanent fusion using magical Kaioshin earrings fits perfectly well into that. This wasn't a problem before.

But Goku never once even implied that it was Buu's magic that defused the fusion, it was bad air and that was it. It wasn't that Buu's dark magic has defused us, it wasn't that the sheer quantity of magic in here has defused us. It was bad air. Also wasn't it the Kaio Shin's pure of heart(ness) that rendered Pure Buu into Majin Buu? It still was a problem as the fandom was finding ways to figure out how the hell this supposedly permanent fusion was capable of defusing because of bad air.

Yes, and that's my point. Before, we had two seperate, differently viable forms of fusion. Now one is 100% obsolete. I don't see why having a less diverse palette with which to combat threats is a good thing in a series about combating threats.

But what's the problem with that? Fusions is just essentially irrelevant at this point in time. The chances of Vegetto showing up are literally none, as Vegeta would rather eat a worm than fuse with Goku.

[TheUltimateNinja]

It's precisely the other way around. It being permanent is what makes it absurdly broken, especially when Boo is on your side now. It having a time limit and, like the fusion dance, the limit shortening the more power you use, pretty much establishes that fusion is useless and will no longer be used.

If the series was actually consistent with its feats, even 1 millisecond would be enough to totally annihilate the enemy.

[Doctor.]

It's precisely the other way around. It being permanent is what makes it absurdly broken, especially when Boo is on your side now. It having a time limit and, like the fusion dance, the limit shortening the more power you use, pretty much establishes that fusion is useless and will no longer be used.

If the series was actually consistent with its feats, even 1 millisecond would be enough to totally annihilate the enemy.

If the series was consistent with its feats, 1 millisecond would be enough for the villain to kill the heroes.

[TheUltimateNinja]

It's precisely the other way around. It being permanent is what makes it absurdly broken, especially when Boo is on your side now. It having a time limit and, like the fusion dance, the limit shortening the more power you use, pretty much establishes that fusion is useless and will no longer be used.

If the series was actually consistent with its feats, even 1 millisecond would be enough to totally annihilate the enemy.

If the series was consistent with its feats, 1 millisecond would be enough for the villain to kill the heroes.

They don't do that due to personality flaws.

[Doctor.]

They don't do that due to personality flaws.

Not every villain has personality flaws. Some are presented as pragmatic, like Piccolo and Black.

[TheUltimateNinja]

They don't do that due to personality flaws.

Not every villain has personality flaws. Some are presented as pragmatic, like Piccolo and Black.

If Piccolo were truly pragmatic, he'd have just shot a beam through Goku's head when he had him crippled. And Black had numerous opportunities to kill the heroes which he wasted, though I suppose he had a valid reason in that he wanted them to power him up even further.