On Bergamo vs. Goku, Universal Destruction, Hopes for Super, and So On

[GreatWyrmGold]

Okay, let's get the obvious bit out of the way: Goku and the destruction of universes. The Daishinkan said that the Omni-King would destroy everything if he held back...yet the Omni-King failed to so much as complain when Goku didn't immediately transform. This reveals that if Goku stayed in his base form, he could have fought as hard as he liked and Bergamo would have won—and half the multiverse wouldn't have had to die.
But maybe he wouldn't be so lenient if Goku kept fighting without transforming. Well, that doesn't mean he can't just hammer away with each successive transformation and "accidentally" let Bergamo adapt to each before the next. Instead, Goku got clever, forgetting that playing dumb (and he would definitely get away with that) could stop over half of the multiverse from being destroyed. This really bothers me. If Goku had spent an instant considering how to hide his intent to let Bergamo win, he wouldn't have had to hold back at all. But he didn't. He didn't care.

Also, the Kaio-Ken Blue was just plain showing off. Bergamo was close enough to collapsing the stage that, even accepting that Goku had to win, Goku could have just kept hammering Bergamo and he would have fallen. (He doesn't demonstrate the ability to fly. I don't know what it's like in U9, but if the platform I was standing on was about to collapse under my weight while someone was working to make me even bigger. I'd want to fly ASAP.) Also, SSJB is, by all accounts, well beyond either SSJ or anything any of the gods had expected. Kaio-ken on top of that is the rough equivalent of a Magic the Gathering player destroying all of an opponent's creatures and land before finally destroying that last point of life.
I know that this seems like a minor complaint compared to allowing most of the multiverse get destroyed, but I have a point. Goku claims he's fighting because he wants a tough fight, but this doesn't quite fit. Isn't pouring power on top of power sort of like enabling god mode? SSJB would make the fight more challenging but still almost certainly quite winnable, but Goku goes all-out. Why, especially considering that the technique was stated to be bad for the body? (Remember how he accidentally turned off his ki last time he used it in battle?) The only answer I can think of is to show off. EDIT: This point was countered, so I'm removing it. It wasn't integral to the rest of the post, though.

Worse than the problems themselves is the framing. I could point to the amount of time focusing on those cheering on Goku and applauding his tactics versus those realizing that causing multiversal destruction is a bad thing, or to how the editing and music reinforce that we should agree with those cheering Goku and that it's a triumphant moment, but instead I'll just explain the result: Goku's actions are treated as The Right Thing to Do, Bergamo is vilified for pointing out that Goku basically doomed half of everyone, and how it's implied that Bergamo had to manipulate the gods into being mad at the guy whose actions lead to the imminent death of their universes!
All of this indicates that someone—whether Toriyama or a producer at Toei or whatever—decided to throw in the whole "universes will get erased" thing to give the tournament stakes, which the last one sorely lacked, without considering the narrative consequences. (Bergamo's bet also feels a bit thrown-in, though that doesn't have as much effect on the rest of the arc.) This is a shame on two levels. First off, it means that the addition of that element does at least as much harm as good. Second, it means that the narrative can't explore the consequences of perhaps the most dramatic event in the entire franchise. Dragon Ball has a history of creating what I consider to be absolutely fascinating potential narrative and then using it for nothing but spicing up a fight scene, but this takes the cake.


Look. I really want to love Super; the tone is right about where Dragon Ball is best, many of the fights aren't purely determined by whose kung-fu is stronger or who has the newest transformations, more focus on characters who aren't Goku (and on character in general)... The list goes on. If I could have my ideal Dragon Ball, one I wouldn't be a bit embarrassed to admit I liked*, it would look a heck of a lot like Super. For the most part, Super succeeds at being the Dragon Ball I can shamelessly love. The "filler" and other non-fight, non-plot bits consistently ranks well on my personal list of favorites, so I'd expect the main arcs to be even better. Right?
Well, not so much. The first two arcs have some good stuff, but with a few exceptions they're mostly slower, less interesting versions of the movies. The Champa arc was too fight-focused, and the fights didn't even give me much reason to care about them. The Future Trunks arc was shaping up to be my favorite in the series...but the ending was so rushed and had so many loose threads and plot holes and miscellaneous questionable decisions that it taints the whole arc. I couldn't expect that the Universal Survival arc could be a bigger disappointment; however, this one element of the show packs so much wasted potential into one aspect that I'm definitely concerned. And this last episode is about the best distillation of that wasted potential I could expect.
I hope I'm not proved wrong.

*As to why I would be embarrassed...if you looked at a list of my favorite works, you could probably take a guess. Worm, A Song of Ice and Fire, and HPMoR are at or near the top. They're all more focused on character arcs, overarching narratives, verisimilitude, and so on. Dragon Ball isn't. For all the good things about Dragon Ball, its flaws happen to line up very well with things I like while its best-known strengths line up with things I really don't care for. (And which I have complained about becoming prominent at the expense of the former with regards to other stuff I liked.)


P.S. I know someone's going to bring up the whole "The Omni-King was going to destroy the universes anyway" thing, so I'll get my counter-argument to that up right now.
[spoiler]The most important point to make is that the Omni-King didn't provide or hint at a time table for the upcoming universal destruction. All things considered, from how he's never complained about the number of universes before to the vague language used to describe the plans, makes me think that calling them "plans" is extremely generous. It sounds more like one of those things the Omni-King was planning to get around to sooner or later, but kept not doing despite having ample opportunity to do so. (It would take but a moment, and he's sat around playing planet-marbles for months.) At best, the Omni-King would have kept procrastinating until the end of time, but barring that it's fair to guess that he wouldn't have destroyed any universes for a long, long time unless someone in them ticked him off. Even without that, though, Goku unwittingly traded an unspecified amount of time in a bunch of universes until the Omni-King finally got around to destroying them for...a chance to fight?
On a note related to the last sentence: It's generally assumed that the Omni-King would have destroyed all eight universes in the tournament when that day came. This doesn't seem likely to me. The problem "solved" by universal destruction is that there are too many universes; it doesn't make sense that the Omni-King would allow there to still be too many universes after the tournament. Either Zeno thinks five universes is the right number, or he didn't have a target. In the former case, Goku just changed what universes would be spared; in the latter, the numbers have about equal chances of changing either way. (For all we know, Zeno might have independently decided that anywhere between eleven universes and one was the right number.) Overall, it doesn't seem sensible to assume that Goku ultimately caused fewer universes to be destroyed.
All that said, I don't think Goku can rightfully be blamed for destroying seven universes. He didn't know that would happen, after all! But his part in doing so shouldn't be simply overlooked, for Toribot's sake! Goku should feel guilty about it, or at least embarrassed! Gohan should tell him that it's not his fault, it was an accident! Beerus should be threatening to erase Goku, only stopping because Whis reminds him that the Omni-King likes Goku! Something! Anything!

Also, the whole "Oh, he was gonna destroy them anyways" thing—and, to a lesser extent, other things the Daishinkan said in that speech and the speech in general—felt like something squeezed in after the fans started reacting to the implications of the arc ("Goku doomed 90% of the multiverse?" "The Daishinkan doesn't care that most of his kids are going to die?" "What's going to happen after this arc? U7's been kinda played out." Etc). Not only are some of the points unusually perfectly tailored to such complaints without being remotely foreshadowed, the speech as a whole felt out of place; shouldn't the announcements be told after the tournament is over?
If this is true, the inclusion of that speech reinforces my point about the minds behind DBS just not knowing how to handle the dramatic consequences of universal destruction. They saw some of the implications (likely too late to remove them or foreshadow the solutions), assumed they would be bad for the show, and tried to correct them.[/spoiler]

P.P.S. This was initially intended to just be a post in the episode thread about the holes in Goku's logic (assuming one prioritizes number of surviving universes) and the implications on his character, but it kinda spilled over into everything else. I think I like this better. It's nice to be pleasantly surprised.
P.P.P.S. It's about 1 AM in my time zone, thanks to unexpected delays and not realizing how long this would end up taking to write (see PPS). I hope you'll forgive any parts of this post that seem mildly incoherent or tonally-dissonant or full of tyops or whatever. (Actually, I hope there aren't such parts, but forgiveness would be my second option.)

[Totamo]

If Goku lost and the rule was nullified, half the fandom would be pissed and call it a cop out. Notice some people actually wanted goku to win, in fact some wanted that notion if he holds back, omni king will destroy the universes to have never been mentioned, that's right, some members of the fandom wanted goku to decide to win one his own accord.

[dragonballgeek]

I'm not sure if you watched it with subtitles or not, but Goku wasn't allowed to hold back. Doing so would cause them to destroy all the universes at once. He gave it his all like he said he would.

Zeno and the Grand Priest know about Gokus SSB mixed with Kaioken form. Anything less, they would've been able to tell he was sandbagging.

Not to mention the biggest factor here was entertaining Zeno. So I personally think it was okay to be flashy. The alternative would've been getting destroyed because Zeno was bored.

It was a fools bet. They knew Goku wouldn't lose.

[nite_jay]

I'm not sure if you watched it with subtitles or not, but Goku wasn't allowed to hold back. Doing so would cause them to destroy all the universes at once. He gave it his all like he said he would.

Zeno and the Grand Priest know about Gokus SSB mixed with Kaioken form. Anything less, they would've been able to tell he was sandbagging.

Not to mention the biggest factor here was entertaining Zeno. So I personally think it was okay to be flashy. The alternative would've been getting destroyed because Zeno was bored.

It was a fools bet. They knew Goku wouldn't lose.

Agreed 100%. I'd be more disappointed if he lost too, because then there would be really no tension in the arc in the first place.

[ChronoTwigger]

A: Goku WANTED to held back, he was forced to fight or ALL minor universes get destroyed. This was CLEARLY stated.
My friend, you're missing the whole point as much as a lotta other people.
ZENO WANTED THE TOURNAMENT. ZENO WANTED TO DESTROY 8 UNIVERSES. ZENO IS TOYING WITH THOSE STUFF. If Goku didn't remember him the tournament, that psycho kid probably could have destroyed all 12 just for fun. Destroying entire universes is, for him, a source of fun.
It's so clear to me that Zeno menacing destruction for anything clearly hint who's the "bad" one that destroy stuff, any other idea is now selective deafness or blindness, done just to rant.
B: Zeno asked Goku to show something exciting cause again Zeno menaced to destroy everything if the fight was boring.
So he got out with everything and in fact at the end Zeno praise him for the show.

The other things you wrote are pure teenager depression, nosense or selective blindness.
Now you understand why Beerus never wanted for Goku to mess with that crazy kid.

[GreatWyrmGold]

If Goku held back, Omni-King Zen'o would de—

Literally the first goddamn thing in the post. If you're not going to pay attention to my arguments, why the eff do you think you can try to counter them?

If Goku lost and the rule was nullified, half the fandom would be pissed and call it a cop out.

I'm aware. But the part of my post discussing that was focused on the Watsonian aspect.
Besides, if Toriyama or Toei or whoever didn't want to have people consider the implications of Goku being offered a chance to spare half the multiverse, they shouldn't have given him that chance. That's kinda my point.

Zeno and the Grand Priest know about Gokus SSB mixed with Kaioken form. Anything less, they would've been able to tell he was sandbagging.

Yet no one cried boo when Goku started in his base form.

Not to mention the biggest factor here was entertaining Zeno. So I personally think it was okay to be flashy. The alternative would've been getting destroyed because Zeno was bored.

I'm not sure he would have done that, but fair point.

ZENO WANTED THE TOURNAMENT. ZENO WANTED TO DESTROY 8 UNIVERSES. ZENO IS TOYING WITH THOSE STUFF. If Goku didn't remember him the tournament, that psycho kid probably could have destroyed all 12 just for fun. Destroying entire universes is, for him, a source of fun.

Gee, this is an obvious counterargument. So obvious, you'd think I would have put a counter-counterargument in the OP. Oh wait—I did! See my comments under "Various," in case your use of that argument didn't get you to read it.

The other things you wrote are pure teenager depression, nosense or selective blindness.

Ooh, vague and unsubstantiated insults. Logical. Convincing. Mature.
Sure, my sarcasm isn't that mature, but I'm a little frustrated since everything in your post was a mere assertion, accounted for in the OP, or both.

Now you understand why Beerus never wanted for Goku to mess with that crazy kid.

No, I understood that back when Beerus freaked out upon seeing him visit his little tournament.

[Cipher]

If Goku lost and the rule was nullified, half the fandom would be pissed and call it a cop out. Notice some people actually wanted goku to win, in fact some wanted that notion if he holds back, omni king will destroy the universes to have never been mentioned, that's right, some members of the fandom wanted goku to decide to win one his own accord.

I wanted Goku to win because that's where the conflict lies, but I also wanted him to be a bit conflicted about it or to at least think about how he might try to lose.

I'd certainly expect Gohan, Mr. Satan and Beerus to be less than totally cheerful about his victory. Shouldn't they be hoping he goes all out and loses anyway?

We don't live in a world of binary options for character-writing. There are so many ways this episode could have gone without going back on the stakes or interesting character-based conflict, while also not making Goku so outrageously cavalier in the face of immediate consequences and while keeping his teammates' characterizations intact.

A: Goku WANTED to held back, he was forced to fight or ALL minor universes get destroyed. This was CLEARLY stated.

I sure wish that desire had been expressed in the writing somewhere, because his actual response is just to giggle and say, "I won't lose."

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's not the world's best way to communicate internal conflict, if the intent was indeed for there to be any.

After the fight, he doesn't show one ounce of remorse over the idea that his victory has locked in the fates of seven universes, even when Bergamot and the rest of the gods are clearly terrified over the idea.

[Totamo]

If Goku lost and the rule was nullified, half the fandom would be pissed and call it a cop out. Notice some people actually wanted goku to win, in fact some wanted that notion if he holds back, omni king will destroy the universes to have never been mentioned, that's right, some members of the fandom wanted goku to decide to win one his own accord.

I wanted Goku to win because that's where the conflict lies, but I also wanted him to be a bit conflicted about it or to at least think about how he might try to lose.

I'd certainly expect Gohan, Mr. Satan and Beerus to be less than totally cheerful about his victory. Shouldn't they be hoping he goes all out and loses anyway?

We don't live in a world of binary options for character-writing. There are so many ways this episode could have gone without going back on the stakes or interesting character-based conflict, while also not making Goku so outrageously cavalier in the face of immediate consequences and while keeping his teammates' characterizations intact.

A: Goku WANTED to held back, he was forced to fight or ALL minor universes get destroyed. This was CLEARLY stated.

I sure wish that desire had been expressed in the writing somewhere, because his actual response is just to giggle and say, "I won't lose."

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's not the world's best way to communicate internal conflict, if the intent was indeed for there to be any.

After the fight, he doesn't show one ounce of remorse over the idea that his victory has locked in the fates of seven universes, even when Bergamot and the rest of the gods are clearly terrified over the idea.

when gohan was getting beaten down, goku had a smile on his face it wasn't until piccolo told him that gohan isn't him., did he react

Goku is having fun and everyone else doesn't care, especially the gods of universe 1, 12, 8 and 5.

This tournament is for fun and will have no consequence or will be easily solved. The way the characters are acting is like they know everything will be fine.

[MathSSJ]

I sure wish that desire had been expressed in the writing somewhere, because his actual response is just to giggle and say, "I won't lose."

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's not the world's best way to communicate internal conflict, if the intent was indeed for there to be any.

After the fight, he doesn't show one ounce of remorse over the idea that his victory has locked in the fates of seven universes, even when Bergamot and the rest of the gods are clearly terrified over the idea.

I just see Goku overly confident and giggling because he gets to fight a bunch of different people with all kinds of skills and levels of power. He is most likely counting on already winning and wishing back the destroyed universes with the Super Dragon Balls. He wanted to talk to Zen'o and try to persuade them on removing the whole destroy-all-universes bit from the tournament, but almost immediately got shot down, so what's the point in harping over that?

He gets to have his cake and eat it if it all goes well and he wins. However, I just can't see Zeno and Daishinkan taking a wish like that too well as it would undo the entire point of the tournament. We'll see.

[King-K9]

All I know is, it sucks being a Goku fan right now.

[Ki Breaker]

All I know is, it sucks being a Goku fan right now.

You can almost be certain he is going to be a universal hero after this, goku fans need not worry.. ever

[TheMathemagician]

All I know is, it sucks being a Goku fan right now.

Can't say I agree. Goku is one of my two favorite characters at the moment, and I got to tell ya, it feels pretty great being a Goku fan. They're doing something interesting with his character that I'm curious about.

[Big Black Sayian]

I'm not sure if you watched it with subtitles or not, but Goku wasn't allowed to hold back. Doing so would cause them to destroy all the universes at once. He gave it his all like he said he would.

Zeno and the Grand Priest know about Gokus SSB mixed with Kaioken form. Anything less, they would've been able to tell he was sandbagging.

Not to mention the biggest factor here was entertaining Zeno. So I personally think it was okay to be flashy. The alternative would've been getting destroyed because Zeno was bored.

It was a fools bet. They knew Goku wouldn't lose.

I'm not sure why that part was written in. Knowing Goku he wasn't going to hold back anyways. :p

[King-K9]

All I know is, it sucks being a Goku fan right now.

Can't say I agree. Goku is one of my two favorite characters at the moment, and I got to tell ya, it feels pretty great being a Goku fan. They're doing something interesting with his character that I'm curious about.

Well, at least you can get some form of enjoyment out of this. I for one can't stand what they're doing with Goku's character .

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Zeno and the Grand Priest know about Gokus SSB mixed with Kaioken form. Anything less, they would've been able to tell he was sandbagging.

Yet no one cried boo when Goku started in his base form.

Keyword is started. If Goku was able to defeat Bergamo in base or SS then that would have been fine, but as the fight progressed it was a risk Goku couldn't take so he brought out SSGSSKK just to be sure.

[Kassavo]

It has been funny to read all of this comments over the past few weeks that are filled with outrage at "Goku dooming all of the universes" etc. because I could not care less about those other universes lol. If anything, Goku is giving these other universes that would have been wiped out anyway, a chance at survival.

You want him to feel sorry about omni-king being an impulsive child? I can't condemn Goku for that, simply because he had no idea that omni would go psycho with the rules. If I am in Goku's shoes I would simply think this is going to be another universe 6 tournament, only with stronger opponents to face. So I totally understand why he disobeyed Beerus and Whis, as they've been wrong before.

I'm invested in universe 7, feel they will win, am pretty sure the other universes will be wished back, and have no problem with how Goku has acted. He is acting like Goku for crying out loud.

I'm sure the english dub will make it seem like Goku has some regret, as I sense some from the subs but it kinda gets lost in translation due to language barriers.

[dragonballgeek]

It has been funny to read all of this comments over the past few weeks that are filled with outrage at "Goku dooming all of the universes" etc. because I could not care less about those other universes lol. If anything, Goku is giving these other universes that would have been wiped out anyway, a chance at survival.

You want him to feel sorry about omni-king being an impulsive child? I can't condemn Goku for that, simply because he had no idea that omni would go psycho with the rules. If I am in Goku's shoes I would simply think this is going to be another universe 6 tournament, only with stronger opponents to face. So I totally understand why he disobeyed Beerus and Whis, as they've been wrong before.

I'm invested in universe 7, feel they will win, am pretty sure the other universes will be wished back, and have no problem with how Goku has acted. He is acting like Goku for crying out loud.

I'm sure the english dub will make it seem like Goku has some regret, as I sense some from the subs but it kinda gets lost in translation due to language barriers.

I too love reflecting on the crybabies who kept complaining about Goku before the arc was even over with. Ha! Very few are willing to admit that they were being sour grapes. Now they just try to defend their statements because they're in too deep

[TekTheNinja]

I just have to say that you properly alliterated everything really well. Your posts here really exemplify everything wrong with Goku's portrayal. Too bad some people seem to ignore what you're saying and reply with the arguments you we're already countering in the first post. Like, seriously. -_-

Anyway I still don't get this argument that there was no way Goku could have known how impulsive Zeno is. That makes no sense at all. HE WITNESSED ZENO DESTROY A TIMELINE ON A WHIM!

I have no problem with how Goku has acted. He is acting like Goku for crying out loud.

False. Simply false.

I too love reflecting on the crybabies who kept complaining about Goku before the arc was even over with. Ha! Very few are willing to admit that they were being sour grapes. Now they just try to defend their statements because they're in too deep

So we're crybabies for wanting a portrayal of Goku that's accurate to how he's supposed to be? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4

[Asura]

It has been funny to read all of this comments over the past few weeks that are filled with outrage at "Goku dooming all of the universes" etc. because I could not care less about those other universes lol. If anything, Goku is giving these other universes that would have been wiped out anyway, a chance at survival.

You want him to feel sorry about omni-king being an impulsive child? I can't condemn Goku for that, simply because he had no idea that omni would go psycho with the rules. If I am in Goku's shoes I would simply think this is going to be another universe 6 tournament, only with stronger opponents to face. So I totally understand why he disobeyed Beerus and Whis, as they've been wrong before.

I'm invested in universe 7, feel they will win, am pretty sure the other universes will be wished back, and have no problem with how Goku has acted. He is acting like Goku for crying out loud.

I'm sure the english dub will make it seem like Goku has some regret, as I sense some from the subs but it kinda gets lost in translation due to language barriers.

I too love reflecting on the crybabies who kept complaining about Goku before the arc was even over with. Ha! Very few are willing to admit that they were being sour grapes. Now they just try to defend their statements because they're in too deep

Err, what exactly are you referring to? Or rather, who exactly are you referring to?

I'm guessing you're referring to the U6 arc since that was the only arc mentioned in that quote. What did people say about Goku during that arc that was proven to be wildly untrue? Most of the complaints I hear about the U6 + Future Trunks arc Goku are that his character traits of forgetfulness, stupidness, etc. are primed up to 11 and beyond. I wouldn't say any of those complaints are invalid or "proven false".

[dragonballgeek]

I just have to say that you properly alliterated everything really well. Your posts here really exemplify everything wrong with Goku's portrayal. Too bad some people seem to ignore what you're saying and reply with the arguments you we're already countering in the first post. Like, seriously. -_-

Anyway I still don't get this argument that there was no way Goku could have known how impulsive Zeno is. That makes no sense at all. HE WITNESSED ZENO DESTROY A TIMELINE ON A WHIM!

I have no problem with how Goku has acted. He is acting like Goku for crying out loud.

False. Simply false.

I too love reflecting on the crybabies who kept complaining about Goku before the arc was even over with. Ha! Very few are willing to admit that they were being sour grapes. Now they just try to defend their statements because they're in too deep

So we're crybabies for wanting a portrayal of Goku that's accurate to how he's supposed to be? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4

You're crybabies because you're mad that the character isn't acting the way you want them to. Does everyone have to act the same when they get older? Are YOU the same person you were 10 years ago? Get over yourself.