I find Goku to be the worst character in this show

[Lord Beerus]

I remind people. Goku is a battle maniac idiot but he never once toyed with other people's lives in order to have fun.

He absolutely has done that. And on quite a few occasions.

[TheMikado]

I remind people. Goku is a battle maniac idiot but he never once toyed with other people's lives in order to have fun.

He absolutely has done that. And on quite a few occasions.

Outside of the "Vegeta" example and the "Not turning SSJ3" things we love to bring up where did this happen?

[TheMikado]

I have to admit that he was written terribly in the latest episode.
No problem been stubborn or seek good fights but here he was presented like an asshole who doesn't care if other people die.
Toei tries to play the "he will gain their trust later" plot but it feels like they paid a kindergarten to do it.
Worse part is that his universe doesn't understand that. Instead of Beerus saying "that idiot, acting like a moron made everyone his enemy", his answer when he heard Bergamo exposing him was "he will make Goku look like a bad guy". No Beerus !!!!! Goku in that episode was the bad guy. Bergamo was the hero fighting for everyone. Hearing Bergamo calling Goku "demon" or "a person that doesn't care if people die" really got me annoyed.
I can understand the production facing issues with animation but sometimes the worse part of these episodes is the plot structure and the dialogues.Through guy who wrote that episode must have spend as little time as possible, or he must be completely unaware of db as a series.

Unless Toei later reveals that Goku has a plan beyond dragonballs, that specific episode is the worse written material in db. Heck if we see Goku later saying "we have db so everything will be fine!!!" and Grand Priest replied something like "resurection of the other universes is forbidden" making Goku start thinking how much of an idiot he was during this tournament, I would gladly say that Toei tricked me....but who am I kidding.....Toei pulling such a great plot......nah.....make Goku act like the villain and then have everyone magically love him......thank God Toyotaro will present something great in the manga.

I remind people. Goku is a battle maniac idiot but he never once toyed with other people's lives in order to have fun.

I certainly have to agree, but at this point I'm waiting for international reactions to the dub when it gets over there.

99.9% FUNimation will patch it. Schemmel will say something like "I know I am stubborn but I want the challenge". Basically they will make Goku admit that he is wrong but still wanting to fight and showing that even now he thinks about the other universes.
My biggest concern is during the mafuba scene. I can't imagine Schemmel saying "oops I forgot the talisma"

I disagree on that... I watched the dub and sub back to back last week. IMO Gokus character is actually far worse in the Super english dub. The differences are small initially but there are enough of them that they begin to overshadow and alter the character.

[SsjCookie]

Goku isn't supposed to be a hero, he's simply supposed to be the protagonist. And no, episode 81 didn't make him evil.

You say that, but yet he is a hero in every single DB and DBZ arc (although arguably the first martial arts tournament in DB had no hero, nor any real villains). In every single arc he is fighting to save people. Sure, he wants to fight them for his own selfish reasons as well, but never at the expense of saving people. Goku literally kills himself in the Cell arc so that the people of Earth can live in peace since he felt he always attracted evil. Goku was always the protagonist, and the hero.

In this arc, Goku is the protagonist and the villain. That's not cool. Saying that Goku was always like this isn't even an excuse anymore. If Kid Goku were in there, and just heard the news that the universes would be destroyed because of him, and all the other universes were getting pissed at him, you can bet your ass he wouldn't be smiling his smug ass grin and yammering about fighting stronger people. He would probably feel pressure, perhaps guilt, and realize that he might have fucked up, but he knows that he can make it right somehow, and if he has to beat all those strong fighters (which he wanted to anyway!), he'll do it now for all universes.

I actually LIKE the idea that he's being villified by everybody else. Makes the stakes guy. Hes like Steve Austin in the 1998 Royal Rumble.

Ditto here, I think it's very refreshing.
Instead of people always gushing over Goku they finally get to see a different side of him, a not so admirable side.
Goku doesn't seem to mind people blaming him for the tournament and doesn't seem to worry about the losing universes much.
He's so unsympathetic at the moment that at this point I actually want him to lose the tournament "Big time".
He probably has the dragon balls in mind to clean up the mess, but I hope it will not be that stupidly easy for him.

After what happened with future Trunk's time line he should know better.

[Lord Beerus]

I remind people. Goku is a battle maniac idiot but he never once toyed with other people's lives in order to have fun.

He absolutely has done that. And on quite a few occasions.

Outside of the "Vegeta" example and the "Not turning SSJ3" things we love to bring up where did this happen?

- Allowing Freeza to power up to 100%. There was no guarantee that Freeza would have been weaker than Goku, so for him to take that gamble was absurd. Freeza could have killed him, escaped Namek and went to terrorise Earth.
- Goku not taking Bulma advice to stop Dr Gero from activating the Androids because he wanted to challenge himself, even though Future Trunks outright states that those same Androids are responsible for destroying the world in the future.
- Giving Cell a senzu to make his battle with Gohan fair
- Not killing Majin Boo when he had the chance to so that Goten, Trunks and Gohan could take care of him. What's even worse is that Goku makes Majin Boo promise to not kill anyone for two days so that Goten and Trunks have enough time to train and fight him. And then Majin Boo literally goes straight to killing millions of people right after Goku leaves and Babidi is killed by Majin Boo. In a single day, Majin Boo wipes out 80% of humanity.

[ekrolo2]

He absolutely has done that. And on quite a few occasions.

Outside of the "Vegeta" example and the "Not turning SSJ3" things we love to bring up where did this happen?

- Allowing Freeza to power up to 100%. There was no guarantee that Freeza would have been weaker than Goku, so for him to take that gamble was absurd. Freeza could have killed him, escaped Namek and went to terrorise Earth.
- Goku not taking Bulma advice to stop Dr Gero from activating the Androids because he wanted to challenge himself, even though Future Trunks outright states that those same Androids are responsible for destroying the world in the future.
- Giving Cell a senzu to make his battle with Gohan fair
- Not killing Majin Boo when he had the chance to so that Goten, Trunks and Gohan could take care of him. What's even worse is that Goku make Majin Boo promise to not kill anyone for two days so that Goten and Trunks have enough time to train and fight him. And then Majin Boo literally goes straight to killing millions of people right at Goku leaves and Babidi is killed by Majin Boo. In a single day, Majin Boo wipes out 80% of humanity.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Goku just assumes he can use the Super DBs to fix the problem after all is said and done. He was gonna let Fat Boo & Babidi rampage across the Earth so he could train Goten and Trunks and didn't care about civilian casualties.

[SansrivaaL]

Outside of the "Vegeta" example and the "Not turning SSJ3" things we love to bring up where did this happen?

- Allowing Freeza to power up to 100%. There was no guarantee that Freeza would have been weaker than Goku, so for him to take that gamble was absurd. Freeza could have killed him, escaped Namek and went to terrorise Earth.
- Goku not taking Bulma advice to stop Dr Gero from activating the Androids because he wanted to challenge himself, even though Future Trunks outright states that those same Androids are responsible for destroying the world in the future.
- Giving Cell a senzu to make his battle with Gohan fair
- Not killing Majin Boo when he had the chance to so that Goten, Trunks and Gohan could take care of him. What's even worse is that Goku make Majin Boo promise to not kill anyone for two days so that Goten and Trunks have enough time to train and fight him. And then Majin Boo literally goes straight to killing millions of people right at Goku leaves and Babidi is killed by Majin Boo. In a single day, Majin Boo wipes out 80% of humanity.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Goku just assumes he can use the Super DBs to fix the problem after all is said and done. He was gonna let Fat Boo & Babidi rampage across the Earth so he could train Goten and Trunks and didn't care about civilian casualties.

Thats his best bet, he did say he'll take responsibility, I took it as him winning and asking the Super DBs to undo the destruction, the problem comes after, will Zeno allow such a thing?

[TheMikado]

He absolutely has done that. And on quite a few occasions.

Outside of the "Vegeta" example and the "Not turning SSJ3" things we love to bring up where did this happen?

- Allowing Freeza to power up to 100%. There was no guarantee that Freeza would have been weaker than Goku, so for him to take that gamble was absurd. Freeza could have killed him, escaped Namek and went to terrorise Earth.
- Goku not taking Bulma advice to stop Dr Gero from activating the Androids because he wanted to challenge himself, even though Future Trunks outright states that those same Androids are responsible for destroying the world in the future.
- Giving Cell a senzu to make his battle with Gohan fair
- Not killing Majin Boo when he had the chance to so that Goten, Trunks and Gohan could take care of him. What's even worse is that Goku make Majin Boo promise to not kill anyone for two days so that Goten and Trunks have enough time to train and fight him. And then Majin Boo literally goes straight to killing millions of people right at Goku leaves and Babidi is killed by Majin Boo. In a single day, Majin Boo wipes out 80% of humanity.

How are these for Gokus personal enjoyment? They're just bad decisions having nothing to do with him having a good time or "fun". You can't take every bad decision and use it as the basis of willingly endangering people.

- my understanding of the Frieza scene was to allow Frieza to see the gap in their strength. Not to toy with him.
- this was a moral decision because Goku said Gero hadn't done anything yet.
- the senzu bean wasn't for Gokus benefit, more evidence Goku cares about morality. Goku even voluntarily steps aside instead of continuing to fight Cell for fun. Also counters the argument of Goku being battle hungry.
- with Majin Buu again Goku makes a call and decides he's dead and the living should handle it. Being battle hungry would dictate he keep fighting rather than let the kids or anyone else get a chance. Doesn't mean it was a bad decision but Goku has consistently done the opposite of being this battle crazed nut. He's turned down or attempted to turn down fights multiple times over and over again.

[ekrolo2]

How are these for Gokus personal enjoyment? They're just bad decisions having nothing to do with him having a good time or "fun". You can't take every bad decision and use it as the basis of willingly endangering people.

- my understanding of the Frieza scene was to allow Frieza to see the gap in their strength. Not to toy with him.
- this was a moral decision because Goku said Gero hadn't done anything yet.
- the senzu bean wasn't for Gokus benefit, more evidence Goku cares about morality. Goku even voluntarily steps aside instead of continuing to fight Cell for fun. Also counters the argument of Goku being battle hungry.
- with Majin Buu again Goku makes a call and decides he's dead and the living should handle it. Being battle hungry would dictate he keep fighting rather than let the kids or anyone else get a chance. Doesn't mean it was a bad decision but Goku has consistently done the opposite of being this battle crazed nut. He's turned down or attempted to turn down fights multiple times over and over again.

- Goku says he wants Freeza to go to max power so he can fight him at his best, Freeza was the most powerful being he could meet at the time and he wanted to fight him at 100%.
- Goku's decision is rooted in fighting people, that's his first call, him not wanting to kill Gero because it isn't morally right is both baseless and retarded. This guy caused the apocalypse and was part of the RRA who Goku knows were evil AND he doesn't use the DBs to confirm if Gero is good or not, he just makes a naive guess because that facilitates him fighting strong opponents.
- Goku only steps aside in the Cell situation because he knows he can't bridge the gap. Make no mistake, if Goku could've beaten Cell, even if there was but a 10% chance of doing so, he WOULD have fucked around needlessly for his own enjoyment.
- The Boo thing isn't an example of him being a fighting nut, just a lying piece of shit. Him choosing to fight Kid Boo is him being a crazed fighting nut.

[dbs fanboy]

Goku is the best, because he's making both the audicence and the characters from his fictional universe, hate him, and he still doesn't give a damn, fucking savage

[Mazingerdestro]

I remind people. Goku is a battle maniac idiot but he never once toyed with other people's lives in order to have fun.

He absolutely has done that. And on quite a few occasions.

Feel free to name these moments.

I certainly have to agree, but at this point I'm waiting for international reactions to the dub when it gets over there.

99.9% FUNimation will patch it. Schemmel will say something like "I know I am stubborn but I want the challenge". Basically they will make Goku admit that he is wrong but still wanting to fight and showing that even now he thinks about the other universes.
My biggest concern is during the mafuba scene. I can't imagine Schemmel saying "oops I forgot the talisma"

I disagree on that... I watched the dub and sub back to back last week. IMO Gokus character is actually far worse in the Super english dub. The differences are small initially but there are enough of them that they begin to overshadow and alter the character.

Maybe but still I believe that they will change him here.

[The gr]

Bergamo is the representation of the DB fandom

[Lord Beerus]

Outside of the "Vegeta" example and the "Not turning SSJ3" things we love to bring up where did this happen?

- Allowing Freeza to power up to 100%. There was no guarantee that Freeza would have been weaker than Goku, so for him to take that gamble was absurd. Freeza could have killed him, escaped Namek and went to terrorise Earth.
- Goku not taking Bulma advice to stop Dr Gero from activating the Androids because he wanted to challenge himself, even though Future Trunks outright states that those same Androids are responsible for destroying the world in the future.
- Giving Cell a senzu to make his battle with Gohan fair
- Not killing Majin Boo when he had the chance to so that Goten, Trunks and Gohan could take care of him. What's even worse is that Goku makes Majin Boo promise to not kill anyone for two days so that Goten and Trunks have enough time to train and fight him. And then Majin Boo literally goes straight to killing millions of people right after Goku leaves and Babidi is killed by Majin Boo. In a single day, Majin Boo wipes out 80% of humanity.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Goku just assumes he can use the Super DBs to fix the problem after all is said and done. He was gonna let Fat Boo & Babidi rampage across the Earth so he could train Goten and Trunks and didn't care about civilian casualties.

To be fair, he did say he felt sorry about the people down below who Majin Boo were killing while he was on Kami's Lookout. But that doesn't mean much considering that he could have stopped it from happening in the first place.

[ekrolo2]

To be fair, he did say he felt sorry about the people down below who Majin Boo were killing while he was on Kami's Lookout. But that doesn't mean much considering that he could have stopped it from happening in the first place.

Even earlier than you might think


But according to Goku's logic (until Toriyama rewrites it) it's okay for him to help escalate a conflict while he's dead but not to end it.... because he's dead and has no place in the living world anymore.

[SansrivaaL]

To be fair, he did say he felt sorry about the people down below who Majin Boo were killing while he was on Kami's Lookout. But that doesn't mean much considering that he could have stopped it from happening in the first place.

Even earlier than you might think
[spoiler][/spoiler]

But according to Goku's logic (until Toriyama rewrites it) it's okay for him to help escalate a conflict while he's dead but not to end it.... because he's dead and has no place in the living world anymore.

You know, I always took Goku's actions in the Boo saga is him pushing the responsibility of saving the world to someone else, because he doesnt want to do it but gets pushed into doing it, he doesnt want to end lives, and puts the fate of the world in his hands, he just wants to fight.

[ekrolo2]

You know, I always took Goku's actions in the Boo saga is him pushing the responsibility of saving the world to someone else, because he doesnt want to do it but gets pushed into doing it, he doesnt want to end lives, and puts the fate of the world in his hands, he just wants to fight.

I would have a much easier time swallowing this if he didn't say in the page I just posted "I will stomp your shit Vegeta so Boo doesn't hatch" then doesn't use SS3 to do what he sets out to. I know Toriyama didn't write 3 into the story at this point but in-universe it just doesn't work.

[Legion]

That the universes will be destroyed and Goku says "I don't care, I want to fight!" is not Goku for me. And it has nothing to do with his past mistakes.

[Lord Beerus]

To be fair, he did say he felt sorry about the people down below who Majin Boo were killing while he was on Kami's Lookout. But that doesn't mean much considering that he could have stopped it from happening in the first place.

Even earlier than you might think
[spoiler][/spoiler]

But according to Goku's logic (until Toriyama rewrites it) it's okay for him to help escalate a conflict while he's dead but not to end it.... because he's dead and has no place in the living world anymore.

And you know, when your brought up the example about Kid Boo in your previous post, something I totally forgot about, it's just make that moment with Majin Vegeta all the more bizarre. Like, he's only willing to go all out once he know that billions of people are dead. Plus, him not wanting to fuse with Vegeta was stupid. It's even more dumb considering that it's shown the Potara fusion isn't actually permanent, and Old Kaioshin was full of shit. And we later find out you can wish to separate a Potara fused being. So they could have easily fused to become Vegetto, literally finger-flick Kid Boo and then wished to separate. Job done in less than five minutes. But no. Goku wanted to fight on his own and challenge himself.

Oh, God. What an asshole Goku can be.

[Lord Frieza]

Its very interesting to see how people react when they find out their childhood hero is actually not very heroic.

[DragonBallFoodie]

Well, Goku has died a hero, so maybe he should live long enough to see himself become the villain?

Okay, seriously, Goku has always been the same man-child combat-loving dude he has always been, and it's not really his fault if the universe has become a bigger and more intolerant place for his recklessness and ignorance. He doesn't mean any real harm, he's really like this smiley here.