Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

At least it was confirmed that Base Goku didn't have God-ki, since all the Gods notice it after he goes Ssj Blue.
Two-base theory confirmed yet again.

As I recall, the gods never specifically mentioned "God ki" but rather "power on par with the gods". So it doesn't really confirm the two base theory (which might not be true after all at this point) but it does confirm that Goku isn't 'God level' - again, that is an official term used since the near beginning of the show - until transforming into Super Saiyan Blue.

It's also important to remember that the BoG and RoF arcs were in all likelihood created without any input from Toriyama, since Toriyama already worked on the original movies they were adapted from. For the Super franchise in particular, those events may have gone a little differently than how they were portrayed in the films as Toyotaro's version of BoG would indicate.

Personally I had Buu in between Base and Super Saiyan (much closer to Base though).

That's also where I have him. It makes sense because it allows base Goku to be several dozens of times stronger than he was during the Buu arc without being nonsensically stronger.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The hierarchy goes:

Bergamo>Lavender>Basil

-Bergamo had a slight edge on Base Goku, whom is around the same level as Current Ultimate Gohan.

-Lavender was able to give Ultimate Gohan a better fight than Boo ever did, even though he was clearly shown to be below Gohan in terms of power since he couldn't touch him.
Yes the current Gohan is stated to be the same Ultimate Gohan from the Boo saga, so Lavender is a lot stronger than Basil, but not to the point of a many multifold gap.

-Basil is trash to Boo without his drug and still a bit inferior to Boo with it.

This is basically how it looks on my power level list:

[spoiler]Good Boo(Docile): 4,000,000,000
Good Boo(Very angry): 16,000,000,000

Basil: 5,000,000,000
Basil(full power): 10,000,000,000
Basil(drug powered): 15,000,000,000

Universe survival arc Ultimate Gohan: 27,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Ultimate Gohan: 1,350,000,000,000

Lavender: 23,000,000,000

Universe survival arc Base Goku: 28,500,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 1,425,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 684,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku: 1,368,000,000,000,000

Bergamo: 30,000,000,000
Bergamo(Powered up): 1,500,000,000,000
Bergamo(Further powered up): 700,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]

and no, the 2 base theory still isn't a thing. It never had merit due to having no official backing and it never will.

[Bullza]

This is basically how it looks on my power level list:

Wait Gohan wasn't Ultimate here was he? There was a preview not long back that mentioned how Ultimate Gohan was returning and it was teased in the new opening but that hasn't actually happened yet as far as I know.

I thought that was going to be something he reobtained when training for this upcoming Tournament. So even as a Super Saiyan he shouldn't be as strong as he was in the Buu saga yet.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

This is basically how it looks on my power level list:

Wait Gohan wasn't Ultimate here was he? There was a preview not long back that mentioned how Ultimate Gohan was returning and it was teased in the new opening but that hasn't actually happened yet as far as I know.

I thought that was going to be something he reobtained when training for this upcoming Tournament. So even as a Super Saiyan he shouldn't be as strong as he was in the Buu saga yet.

He was Ultimate against Lavender. The art shown in the promotional material and the art shown during the fight are exactly the same.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Other promotional material states that the "strong Gohan that once surpassed his father has returned!", not that it was coming back soon.

He could potentially get stronger before the tournament, but that doesn't change the fact that Ultimate Gohan fought Lavender.

[Zamasu55]

No it doesn't quit pushing this shit

I admire your ability to deny he truth.

I don't see how Goku using SSBlue, a form utilizing God Ki, proves he has it in Base. If Bergamo was stated to be stronger than SS Gohan and Base Goku beat the crap out of him, that would serve as good evidence but that's not what happened.

That's my point.

[ekrolo2]

I admire your ability to deny he truth.

I don't see how Goku using SSBlue, a form utilizing God Ki, proves he has it in Base. If Bergamo was stated to be stronger than SS Gohan and Base Goku beat the crap out of him, that would serve as good evidence but that's not what happened.

That's my point.

Your point goes against what you're trying to prove? Unless you were being sarcastic at which case it wasn't clear. Regardless, Goku using Blue doesn't prove a two base theory, him defeating an SS3 tier opponent in Base would but its increasingly clear he isn't much stronger than Gohan is right now in either Base or SS.

[GreatWyrmGold]

That's what I was afraid of. Oh well.

If it makes you feel better, I share that headcanon. And it fits pretty well into the story, even if nothing actually implies it.

It is interesting that they're more often than not relying on gimmicky fighters, though. We had only one straightforward battle out of three.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

At least it was confirmed that Base Goku didn't have God-ki, since all the Gods notice it after he goes Ssj Blue.
Two-base theory confirmed yet again.

I don't see how Base Goku not having god-ki proves a theory which requires that he have a base form that uses god-ki.

Wait, is Bergamo SSJB tier?

The name of his technique ("Wolfgang Penetrator") suggested that it was a technique specially-designed to blast through other blasts, loosely parallel to how the kienzan was specially-designed to cut people. Arguing that Bergamo is roughly on par with SSJB Goku because one special technique managed to blast through the kamehameha seems roughly equivalent to saying that Krillin is roughly on par with Frieza because he cut his tail off.

Base Bergamo > Lavender, therefore...

The fact that Bergamo was third and most boastful implies that he is the most powerful of the Trio de Dangers. That does not, however, automatically mean he's the strongest.
"I used to think spells equaled power, too, back when I was alive. I've learned a lot since then. You know what does equal power? Power. Power equals power. Crazy, huh? But the type of power? Doesn't matter as much as you'd think."
If Bergamo was the weakest of the Trio, ki-wise, he would still be the most powerful, because his special power trumps just about any power level imaginable.

-----

I've heard that the manga's power scaling is more consistent than the anime's. Do any of you guys have an opinion on that?

[LowRyder2005]

He could potentially get stronger before the tournament, but that doesn't change the fact that Ultimate Gohan fought Lavender.

I have my fair share of doubts that there's a "fact" to speak of, at least at the moment. I think we'll probably need to wait until the end of the arc to reach a definitive conclusion on Gohan's status during the Lavenda fight; at this point, though, the simplest explanation - Occam's Razor at hand - would be that he's really using the standard base and Super Saiyan forms. This fits with most of the clues and suggestions we'd have at our disposal, from descriptions of the Ultimate state and how it compares to Super Saiyan forms up to the narrative Gohan's fight in BOG, the only time we know for sure that he goes Chou for sure. That being said, I personally wouldn't rely on the art. It has been inconsistent ever since the start of Super; you have Gohan with his supposed Ultimate face (or rather, the infamous "fully outlined eyes") even when it's been retroactively estlabished he was not Ultimate at all (a.k.a. every scene in which he has his glasses on, for instance, or when everyone is bidding their farewell to Trunks).

My personal bet is that he'll turn in the regular Chou state (aura and all) during the tournament, and that the opening acts as some blatant foreshadowing of that very moment. If the entire arc ends and he doesn't turn Chou, though (or he turns Chou and then gets a bigger power output as a Super Saiyan), it would indeed confirm that Super Saiyan now acts as something on top of his Ultimate.
Regardless, I don't really understand how anyone would deem the Lavenda fight conclusive on whatever theory; their match was basically like one big plot device. You could draw half a dozen of different conclusions from it, all with some merit and/or some partially valid motivation.

P.S. The text in the first picture is wrong (or, more probably, a fake translation). The correct translation was the one with "the Gohan of old who surpassed his father"; they are the same extract.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Oh, no, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. I just found it unusual.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

He could potentially get stronger before the tournament, but that doesn't change the fact that Ultimate Gohan fought Lavender.

I have my fair share of doubts that there's a "fact" to speak of, at least at the moment. I think we'll probably need to wait until the end of the arc to reach a definitive conclusion on Gohan's status during the Lavenda fight; at this point, though, the simplest explanation - Occam's Razor at hand - would be that he's really using the standard base and Super Saiyan forms. This fits with most of the clues and suggestions we'd have at our disposal, from descriptions of the Ultimate state and how it compares to Super Saiyan forms up to the narrative Gohan's fight in BOG, the only time we know for sure that he goes Chou for sure. That being said, I personally wouldn't rely on the art. It has been inconsistent ever since the start of Super; you have Gohan with his supposed Ultimate face (or rather, the infamous "fully outlined eyes") even when it's been retroactively estlabished he was not Ultimate at all (a.k.a. every scene in which he has his glasses on, for instance, or when everyone is bidding their farewell to Trunks).

My personal bet is that he'll turn in the regular Chou state (aura and all) during the tournament, and that the opening acts as some blatant foreshadowing of that very moment. If the entire arc ends and he doesn't turn Chou, though (or he turns Chou and then gets a bigger power output as a Super Saiyan), it would indeed confirm that Super Saiyan now acts as something on top of his Ultimate.
Regardless, I don't really understand how anyone would deem the Lavenda fight conclusive on whatever theory; their match was basically like one big plot device. You could draw half a dozen of different conclusions from it, all with some merit and/or some partially valid motivation.

P.S. The text in the first picture is wrong (or, more probably, a fake translation). The correct translation was the one with "the Gohan of old who surpassed his father"; they are the same extract.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Oh, no, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. I just found it unusual.

There isn't any theory to be had. Common sense would say that since the Gohan we saw is exactly the same in every way compared to the poster that states that he's Ultimate, the Gohan that fought Lavender was indeed Ultimate.

[LowRyder2005]

There isn't any theory to be had. Common sense would say that since the Gohan we saw is exactly the same in every way compared to the poster that states that he's Ultimate, the Gohan that fought Lavender was indeed Ultimate.

Again, the fact that makes it a theory is - at bare minimum, mind you - that there's been no clear indication in the entire history of the franchise that Super Saiyan and the Chou "state" can stack on each other. It didn't happen in Battle of Gods, for starters, so we may as well assume that Gohan can't really get any added benefit from his Super Saiyan form if his Chou form is readily available. Nor do we have any statement about the two being similar in power (Chou is in fact supposed to dwarf the regular Super Saiyan, as the former has reportedly a power "greater than Super Saiyan 3"). So, did Gohan really make enough progress to improve both? Or can we say with absolute certainty that he made any progress at all, at least compared to his all-time peak?

As for the art, I reiterate that it's strictly speaking a non-argument: if you refer to Gohan's facial features, he has the exact same face in every arc but ROF... I mean, you may as well be arguing that he's "turned Ultimate" because, quite simply, he has a serious expression and the old dogi. It is clear that we'll be supposed to accept "Gohan was Ultimate" as a precondition at some point anyway because V-Jump - rather unequivocally - stated that "Ultimate Gohan" was returning in this arc. At the moment, however, there's not really enough material to conclude he was for sure in this specific fight.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

There isn't any theory to be had. Common sense would say that since the Gohan we saw is exactly the same in every way compared to the poster that states that he's Ultimate, the Gohan that fought Lavender was indeed Ultimate.

Again, the fact that makes it a theory is - at bare minimum, mind you - that there's been no indication in the entire history of the franchise that Super Saiyan and the Chou "state" can stack on each other. It didn't happen in Battle of Gods, for starters, so we may as well assume that Gohan can't really get any added benefit from his Super Saiyan form if his Chou form is readily available. So, did Gohan really make enough progress to improve both? Or can we say with absolute certainty that he made any progress at all, at least compared to his all-time peak?

As for the art, I reiterate that it's strictly speaking a non-argument: if you refer to Gohan's facial features, he has the exact same face in every arc but ROF... I mean, you may as well be arguing that he's "turned Ultimate" because, quite simply, he has a serious expression and the old dogi. It is clear that we'll be supposed to accept "Gohan was Ultimate" as a precondition at some point anyway because V-Jump - rather unequivocally - stated that "Ultimate Gohan" was returning in this arc. At the moment, however, there's not really enough material to conclude he was for sure in this specific fight.

Not seeing how that's a mark against what's blatantly shown. The Gohan shown in the promotional material and the one that fought Lavender are the same Gohan.
He used SSJ, it was stated to increase his power level, which means that the states as of now indeed stack. Could be because of Gohan's training, but that is shown to be the case.

We already know that Gohan's stronger than he's ever been if he can match SSJ Goku post god, whom is stronger than BOG Rage powered Vegeta, whom dwarfed every other Z-fighter at the time including Ultimate Gohan.

[LowRyder2005]

Not seeing how that's a mark against what's blatantly shown. The Gohan shown in the promotional material and the one that fought Lavender are the same Gohan.
He used SSJ, it was stated to increase his power level, which means that the states as of now indeed stack. Could be because of Gohan's training, but that is shown to be the case.

We already know that Gohan's stronger than he's ever been if he can match SSJ Goku post god, whom is stronger than BOG Rage powered Vegeta, whom dwarfed every other Z-fighter at the time including Ultimate Gohan.

Well, in this very episode it has been heavily suggested - if not even indirectly stated - that Super Saiyan Goku has not a power rivaling the gods anymore (basically giving quite a lot of leeway to the apparently audacious "his godly-empowered Super Saiyan form disappeared after his battle with Beerus"); now he may as well be weaker than the enraged Vegeta from BOG.

The art, again, doesn't mean much because Chou Gohan and Base Gohan are virtually the same (other than minor details people like to point out, like the "fully outlined eyes", which have only been inconsistent ever since the start of Super).

[pacz360]

At least it was confirmed that Base Goku didn't have God-ki, since all the Gods notice it after he goes Ssj Blue.
Two-base theory confirmed yet again.

No it doesn't quit pushing this shit

I admire your ability to deny he truth.

What truth?there's no two base bs you keep pushing here cause it's has never been implied in the first place.

[pacz360]

Not seeing how that's a mark against what's blatantly shown. The Gohan shown in the promotional material and the one that fought Lavender are the same Gohan.
He used SSJ, it was stated to increase his power level, which means that the states as of now indeed stack. Could be because of Gohan's training, but that is shown to be the case.

We already know that Gohan's stronger than he's ever been if he can match SSJ Goku post god, whom is stronger than BOG Rage powered Vegeta, whom dwarfed every other Z-fighter at the time including Ultimate Gohan.

Well, in this very episode it has been heavily suggested - if not even indirectly stated - that Super Saiyan Goku has not a power rivaling the gods anymore; now he may as well be weaker the enraged Vegeta from BOG, as far as we know.

Not really no
Ssjb is a form that truly rival the gods
Back in rof pre ssjb goku and vegeta was compared to beerus like like a small tree to a huge ass one which represent the gods by whis
Ssjg wasn't considered to be form that could rival them by him
Also next episode we see ssj goku fight toppo who been considered to be a strong enough candidate to be the next god of destruction in u11

[LowRyder2005]

Not really no
Ssjb is a form that truly rival the gods
Back in rof pre ssjb goku and vegeta was compared to beerus like like a small tree to a huge ass one which represent the gods by whis
Ssjg wasn't considered to be form that could rival them by him
Also next episode we see ssj goku fight toppo who been considered to be a strong enough candidate to be the next god of destruction in u11

So you basically think there's a gigantic gap between Super Saiyan God and Blue, that Goku got far stronger or something else? I disagree with most of the possible implications you are trying to see here, but just to make sure.

Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."
Oracle Fish: "Well, whatever. Just don't kill them."

They're not really compared to Beerus only, but to the realm of the gods. It's an important difference, in hindsight. And by now we know all too well that there's a substantial gap even in the pantheon of the higher Gods, with the Grand Priest being possibly many times stronger than the strongest angel. Super Saiyan God Goku could be at a level comparable to that of the lesser gods of destruction (Sidra), or even not too distant from Beerus himself albeit weaker (the scene of the Kaioken can be, again, interpreted in a plethora of different ways). Not only that, but pinpointing the strength of regular base Goku and Vegeta is already pretty iffy in itself; they could be the ones really low in a scale based on the God realm and not Super Saiyan God Goku. This is yet another scene that can't constitute conclusive proof, given how vague it is.

I'd add that, considering that Sidra is probably among the weakest Hakaishin, it's even more significative that Rou finds the power of Super Saiyan Goku negligible compared to his Super Saiyan Blue form.

[Marlowe89]

Ssjg wasn't considered to be form that could rival them by him

This is false. Super Saiyan God was explicitly stated to be a form that had the power of the gods on several occasions and was even specifically called "God level" at one point in the show. It's absolutely no different than the terminology that was used in this episode.

So yes, this episode almost certainly implies that Goku only achieves this level of power when he enters the Super Saiyan Blue form, just as the show has been strongly suggesting for the past several episodes in a row now (and arguably even earlier than that in my opinion).

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Not seeing how that's a mark against what's blatantly shown. The Gohan shown in the promotional material and the one that fought Lavender are the same Gohan.
He used SSJ, it was stated to increase his power level, which means that the states as of now indeed stack. Could be because of Gohan's training, but that is shown to be the case.

We already know that Gohan's stronger than he's ever been if he can match SSJ Goku post god, whom is stronger than BOG Rage powered Vegeta, whom dwarfed every other Z-fighter at the time including Ultimate Gohan.

Well, in this very episode it has been heavily suggested - if not even indirectly stated - that Super Saiyan Goku has not a power rivaling the gods anymore (basically giving quite a lot of leeway to the apparently audacious "his godly-empowered Super Saiyan form disappeared after his battle with Beerus"); now he may as well be weaker than the enraged Vegeta from BOG.

There isn't any reason that Super Saiyan Goku back then would be stronger than the one now. He had no godly ki in Super Saiyan, just like he doesn't have any now. He has godly essence in all his forms, which is why his power was greater than before when SSJG faded, but SSJ Goku was never on the level of the Gods.

[LowRyder2005]

Not seeing how that's a mark against what's blatantly shown. The Gohan shown in the promotional material and the one that fought Lavender are the same Gohan.
He used SSJ, it was stated to increase his power level, which means that the states as of now indeed stack. Could be because of Gohan's training, but that is shown to be the case.

We already know that Gohan's stronger than he's ever been if he can match SSJ Goku post god, whom is stronger than BOG Rage powered Vegeta, whom dwarfed every other Z-fighter at the time including Ultimate Gohan.

Well, in this very episode it has been heavily suggested - if not even indirectly stated - that Super Saiyan Goku has not a power rivaling the gods anymore (basically giving quite a lot of leeway to the apparently audacious "his godly-empowered Super Saiyan form disappeared after his battle with Beerus"); now he may as well be weaker than the enraged Vegeta from BOG.

There isn't any reason that Super Saiyan Goku back then would be stronger than the one now. He had no godly ki in Super Saiyan, just like he doesn't have any now. He has godly essence in all his forms, which is why his power was greater than before when SSJG faded, but SSJ Goku was never on the level of the Gods.

Which is the same of arguing that Super Saiyan God Goku was never on the level of the gods (or rather, even more jarringly, any god), since at some point they were equal.
I think there are many understandable reasons, from narrative implications to power scaling, and most of them pop out in this thread from time to time.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Well, in this very episode it has been heavily suggested - if not even indirectly stated - that Super Saiyan Goku has not a power rivaling the gods anymore (basically giving quite a lot of leeway to the apparently audacious "his godly-empowered Super Saiyan form disappeared after his battle with Beerus"); now he may as well be weaker than the enraged Vegeta from BOG.

There isn't any reason that Super Saiyan Goku back then would be stronger than the one now. He had no godly ki in Super Saiyan, just like he doesn't have any now. He has godly essence in all his forms, which is why his power was greater than before when SSJG faded, but SSJ Goku was never on the level of the Gods.

Which is the same of arguing that Super Saiyan God Goku was never on the level of the gods (or rather, even more jarringly, any god), since at some point they were equal.
I think there are many understandable reasons, from narrative implications to power scaling, and most of them pop out in this thread from time to time.

SSJ and SSJG Goku were never equal. Goku didn't feel weaker since he didn't lose God's power, but he can't use SSJG's full power as a mere SSJ. He would need to actually become an SSJG to do that.

Beerus was even taunting him saying that there should've been more to his power due to him absorbing God
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

then when Goku powers up, Beerus states "very good, but you still won't be able to touch me at that level."

All of this points to Goku not being able to use the full SSJG power as an SSJ even if he did retain all of it.

[LowRyder2005]

SSJ and SSJG Goku were never equal. Goku didn't feel weaker since he didn't lose God's power, but he can't use SSJG's full power as a mere SSJ.

Yet another time, this is debatable as well. Do note that you are basically stating:

* Goku "doesn't feel weaker" than a Super Saiyan God (when he uses the Super Saiyan form in that scene).
* Goku is weaker than a Super Saiyan God (when he uses the Super Saiyan form in that scene).

Following your own line of logic, you can argue that they were never equal only if you doubt Goku's words. But there's nothing indicating that Goku is clearly wrong, and even Beerus sneering at him is inconclusive (I may argue in turn that he may even be using more power than before/ be bluffing/ both).