I find Goku to be the worst character in this show

[gofishus]

Even though some of these moments look dangerous most of them are debatable.
With Frieza, Goku already surpassed him by far. Also he had secured first thst every namekian+friend has left the planet.
-With Gero it was a mutual decision. Everyone wanted to fight.
-The senzu for Cell was also a low threat moment since he had already secured that Gohan was stronger than him in ssj1.
-It was a way to secure the planet's future.

Yes most of these moment show a quite I irresponsible person but they are debatable since he always had the possibilities on his side. Here we see everyone calling him a killer and him saying "hhhhmmmmm fuck them".
I already explained that he is an idiot who loves fighting but if one person came to Goku and said "Buu will kill 80% of the planet" he would immediately kill him. (also the buu part is debatable story wise since it feels like Toriyama is bsing us and retcons his ideas)

Still debatable moments with questionable results.

- Again, as I stated, there was absolutely no guarantee that Freeza would be still weaker than Goku after powering up to 100%. That was total gamble on Goku's part and luck heavily favoured him.
- And... what was the justification for letting the Androids being activated? They destroy the world in the future and are created by a man who worked with an army that tried to take over the world.
- Again, a needless gamble. Never mind that Goku had no idea just how strong Cell was, but it was already an insane gamble to throw Gohan into the lions den without any plan and just hoping that he'd be able to spontaneously tap into the hidden power that he saw when he was training with Gohan in the ROSAT and defeat Cell. I don't give a shit how much Goku loves fighting and a good competition. That was such a fucking reckless thing to do. It essentially put Gohan at a disadvantage. And for what? A fair fight? Fuck that nonsense.
- A gamble that horribly backfired. Gotenks and Gohan fool around and don't get the job done and end up getting absorbed. Then Kid Boo destroys the planet.

Here there is no question.
Unless Goku had a plan

Goku had no idea that Zeno wanted to wipe out eight universes. And he was put in a situation where he could hold back or throw the fight or all 12 universes would be destroyed and if he defeat Bergamo Zeno would still destroy the losing universes. He was fucked either way. And I mention before, why should even give a shit to begin with? He's ultimately fighting to save his own universe. He at least brought up of talking to Zeno to call off destroying the losing universes in the multiverse tournament, but his propsal was shot down by Whis. So it's not doesn't care entirely about the fate of the other universes. He's just accepted the fact there's nothing he can do other than fight to protect his won universe. Hence why he shows confidence, enthusiasm and disregard of the approving attitudes that the other Hakaishin, Kaioshin and fighters from the other universes have towards him.

Lord Beerus, with all due respect it sounds like you are trying really really hard to defend Goku's actions last episode. The writers could have made Goku for example, explain that he didn't know that Zeno was going to destroy all the universes instead of letting him embrace the villain role. Him embracing the villain role and saying 'bring it on' to people who are not clearly villains is out of character for me, even compared to the examples you just gave. A more in character response would be to say that he didnt know, he just wanted to see how strong everyone was etc but definitely not embracing that people want to kill him.

[Asura]

This has nothing to do with "the protagonist isn't good anymore, so I don't like him!"

It's "The protagonist is different all of a sudden, what the hell happened? This isn't the protagonist I've known for years, what's wrong with him?"

The problem that people have is that the character is just different all of a sudden, with no explanation (yet) as to why.

I'm all for complicated protagonists that aren't necessarily good people (Bardock for example is a great protagonist that fits this bill) but that's not the way the character of Goku has been written. Goku isn't the beacon of shining light Superman that the dub makes him out to be, but he is nowhere near this evil either.

No, but he's been this selfish for years and years and years, though. Goku's whole character basically since fighting Vegeta is "I will have a good fight and common sense be damned at all costs!".

This is nothing but the ultimate culmination of bad behavior going unchecked and being basically rewarded for decades. It also doesn't help that he knows he's got 3 sets of plot devices that can instantly fix anything, making his behavior that much worse.

Make no mistake, this IS where Goku was going to end up as a person given his previous trajectory. It is the worst thing you can have him do without starting to kill people on purpose so he can get a good fight in Perfect Cell style.

I highly disagree with your conclusion that Goku is so selfish that he would knowingly throw the lives of tons of people into harms way unless he had a good plan as to why he was doing it.

Almost every time that Goku has been "selfish" in Z, he still had a back-up plan, or someone else that he could rely on when he was done being selfish. In the fight against Perfect Cell, we see this in giving up his fight (something incredibly unselfish by the way) so that Gohan can have a turn. He gives Cell a senzu because he's so confident that Gohan can win, and perhaps felt that only if Cell was at full power could Gohan finally unleash his hidden powers.

We see it in the Buu saga. Goku selfishly wants to fight Vegeta, and won't go SSJ3 to end it quickly. It's selfish, but he feels as if he can count on Gohan to take out Buu, and if that failed then perhaps he could team up with Vegeta and fight Buu (Goku literally stops their fight to do just this). It's selfish, but not entirely reckless. He had a back-up plan.

Again in the Buu saga, Goku could have destroyed Mr. Buu and spared the lives of...well, basically everyone on Earth. But he doesn't, because he's already dead and knows he can't be around forever to save the Earth, he's gotta pass the torch to the next generation, and relies on Goten and Trunks. Goku even expresses some regret and remorse afterwards when he sees all those people being killed. Imagine that, thoughts of guilt and remorse. Two things we still haven't seen the Goku in this arc think about.

Goku lets Vegeta and Frieza go so that he can fight them again later. It's probably two of the most selfish acts he's committed, but he does it in knowing that if they ever did come back, he'd be powerful enough to stop them.

That's exactly the difference of selfishness between Z and Super. In Z, Goku always has a back-up plan. Either he'll stop them, or someone else will. And when things don't exactly go that way (at first), Goku starts feeling regret and guilt. He felt it during Gohan's fight with Cell after Piccolo bitched him out, and he felt it after Buu exterminated basically everyone on Earth. In Super though, Goku has absolutely no way of stopping the destruction of all the other universes. It's his fault they're going to be erased, and there's nothing he can do about it to stop it. Yet, does he feel any guilt? Any remorse? Any contemplation as to what he's just done? Nope. He just says fuck it, bring on more fighters.

So yes, Goku is very selfish. But he's not reckless. He always has a back-up plan in case his selfishness gets him into trouble, and in some cases feels regret and guilt for his selfishness. No such thing is found in Super. Goku is selfish, has no back-up plan, and shows no remorse or guilt for sending 7 universes to their doom.

[Doctor.]

Count me in also in the camp that believes they're writing Goku this way on purpose, be it Toei or Toriyama, to showcase him the flaws of his thinking later on in the arc and hopefully develop the character. Of course you're gonna say Goku is out-of-character if you compare him to Saiyan or Freeza arc Goku, duh. It's the same as comparing Freeza arc Goku to RRA or Piccolo arc Goku. The character changes, he's not as static as most want you to believe. This is the fifth arc since Z has ended, Goku is bound to be different. In this case, his negative traits have been bumped up to eleven. This is, as ekrolo stated, a very natural progression for a character that has always been selfish and reckless.

It's a bit counter-productive to develop him this way after what Toriyama did with him in BoG, but I guess Super did scrap that entirely anyway, so it doesn't matter. I pray that the execution is good, because they're really setting Goku up this arc as someone who doesn't care for the consequences of what he's doing. The way they'll try to make him seem like a good guy again is key.

[SansrivaaL]

Count me in also in the camp that believes they're writing Goku this way on purpose, be it Toei or Toriyama, to showcase him the flaws of his thinking later on in the arc and hopefully develop the character. Of course you're gonna say Goku is out-of-character if you compare him to Saiyan or Freeza arc Goku, duh. It's the same as comparing Freeza arc Goku to RRA or Piccolo arc Goku. The character changes, he's not as static as most want you to believe. This is the fifth arc since Z has ended, Goku is bound to be different. In this case, he's negative traits have been bumped up to eleven. This is, as ekrolo stated, a very natural progression for a character that has always been selfish and reckless.

It's a bit counter-productive to develop him this way after what Toriyama did with him in BoG, but I guess Super did scrap that entirely anyway, so it doesn't matter. I pray that the execution is good, because they're really setting Goku up this arc as someone who doesn't care for the consequences of what he's doing. The way they'll try to make him seem like a good guy again is key.

Here's to hoping that please oh please... dont fck this up. This is DB we're talking about, its now or never, I'm starting to go with the flow of some people saying this will define super, as of now with how ballsy they've exposed Goku with... this may just be really what will define Super.

[ekrolo2]

I highly disagree with your conclusion that Goku is so selfish that he would knowingly throw the lives of tons of people into harms way unless he had a good plan as to why he was doing it.

Almost every time that Goku has been "selfish" in Z, he still had a back-up plan, or someone else that he could rely on when he was done being selfish. In the fight against Perfect Cell, we see this in giving up his fight (something incredibly unselfish by the way) so that Gohan can have a turn. He gives Cell a senzu because he's so confident that Gohan can win, and perhaps felt that only if Cell was at full power could Gohan finally unleash his hidden powers.

We see it in the Buu saga. Goku selfishly wants to fight Vegeta, and won't go SSJ3 to end it quickly. It's selfish, but he feels as if he can count on Gohan to take out Buu, and if that failed then perhaps he could team up with Vegeta and fight Buu (Goku literally stops their fight to do just this). It's selfish, but not entirely reckless. He had a back-up plan.

Again in the Buu saga, Goku could have destroyed Mr. Buu and spared the lives of...well, basically everyone on Earth. But he doesn't, because he's already dead and knows he can't be around forever to save the Earth, he's gotta pass the torch to the next generation, and relies on Goten and Trunks. Goku even expresses some regret and remorse afterwards when he sees all those people being killed. Imagine that, thoughts of guilt and remorse. Two things we still haven't seen the Goku in this arc think about.

Goku lets Vegeta and Frieza go so that he can fight them again later. It's probably two of the most selfish acts he's committed, but he does it in knowing that if they ever did come back, he'd be powerful enough to stop them.

That's exactly the difference of selfishness between Z and Super. In Z, Goku always has a back-up plan. Either he'll stop them, or someone else will. And when things don't exactly go that way (at first), Goku starts feeling regret and guilt. He felt it during Gohan's fight with Cell after Piccolo bitched him out, and he felt it after Buu exterminated basically everyone on Earth. In Super though, Goku has absolutely no way of stopping the destruction of all the other universes. It's his fault they're going to be erased, and there's nothing he can do about it to stop it. Yet, does he feel any guilt? Any remorse? Any contemplation as to what he's just done? Nope. He just says fuck it, bring on more fighters.

So yes, Goku is very selfish. But he's not reckless. He always has a back-up plan in case his selfishness gets him into trouble, and in some cases feels regret and guilt for his selfishness. No such thing is found in Super. Goku is selfish, has no back-up plan, and shows no remorse or guilt for sending 7 universes to their doom.

Goku doesn't always have a back up plan.

When he lets Vegeta go, the guy is up and about mere days after their battle, it is pure, absolute dumb luck Freeza just happened to get to Namek in the meantime and Vegeta had to prioritize that over revenge. If it wasn't for this, Vegeta would have come back and murdered everybody with Goku still in the hospital.

With Freeza, he vows revenge on him several times then proceeds to pointlessly dick around with him. He could've easily killed pre-50% Freeza by doubling his power with KK then snapping his neck, ending it right then and there but he doesn't. Same thing with 70% Freeza, he can kill him at any point but he risks losing his advantage (again) so he can quench his fighting boner.

The whole Cell debacle comes from his and everyone else' selfishness, instead of doing the smart thing as Bulma suggests, he and the others decide to fight for their own amusement. Causing thousands upon thousands of people to die and the Earth almost getting wiped out which is even worse than the apocalypse of Trunks' future. None of this didn't have to happen but it did, because Goku and the others were being selfish.

And no, Goku doesn't refrain from using SS3 to stop Vegeta because he trusts Gohan or some such horseshit headcannon, in the manga and in Herms' strength checker Goku flat out says "I'm gonna use my maximum power so I can finish this quickly and Boo can't hatch!" Goku is going into his fight with Vegeta to be pragmatic.... until he randomly isn't by not laughing in Vegeta's face, using SS3 then punching his fucking teeth out like he verbally states he intends to do before Vegeta uses SS2. And don't tell me he wants to spare Vegeta's pride, he was disgusted by Vegeta murdering people to make the fight happen, why the hell should he care about this bastards pride?

I don't count the Fat Boo thing as him being selfish, a lying cunt sure but not selfish. Him not using Vegetto to stomp Kid Boo is him being selfish by making an easy win pointessly harder so he can have a good fight. Or not ignoring Vegeta and simply having Gohan & Gotenks enter the fray and kill Kid Boo, the Spirit Bomb makes things much much harder but also much more interesting for him so fuck the safe route, let's pointlessly put everyone at risk again!

Also, Goku has a plan: he intends to win the tournament and earn the wish with the Super Dragon Balls. With that he simply wish everybody back to life who Zeno kills. And don't tell me Zeno will just kill them all again, Zeno was willing to drop the rules because Bergamo asked him nicely, Goku can persuade them again to spare the universes at the end.

[TheMikado]

Count me in also in the camp that believes they're writing Goku this way on purpose, be it Toei or Toriyama, to showcase him the flaws of his thinking later on in the arc and hopefully develop the character. Of course you're gonna say Goku is out-of-character if you compare him to Saiyan or Freeza arc Goku, duh. It's the same as comparing Freeza arc Goku to RRA or Piccolo arc Goku. The character changes, he's not as static as most want you to believe. This is the fifth arc since Z has ended, Goku is bound to be different. In this case, he's negative traits have been bumped up to eleven. This is, as ekrolo stated, a very natural progression for a character that has always been selfish and reckless.

It's a bit counter-productive to develop him this way after what Toriyama did with him in BoG, but I guess Super did scrap that entirely anyway, so it doesn't matter. I pray that the execution is good, because they're really setting Goku up this arc as someone who doesn't care for the consequences of what he's doing. The way they'll try to make him seem like a good guy again is key.

Here's to hoping that please oh please... dont fck this up. This is DB we're talking about, its now or never, I'm starting to go with the flow of some people saying this will define super, as of now with how ballsy they've exposed Goku with... this may just be really what will define Super.

This is exactly what will define Super, I keep saying this but the natural end conclusion to this is that Goku meeting Beerus pretty much caused all the problems at the multiversal level. Reversing that means not shenanigans of destruction. But yes I 100% believe this is on purpose. In universe they literally have Goku described as the bad guy. It's not even subtle anymore and people still aren't coming to terms with it. And to be fair not everyone is going to like the idea of their favorite protagonist becoming a villain but that's the risk Super is taking and I'm interested to see how that goes.

[Asura]

Goku doesn't always have a back up plan.

When he lets Vegeta go, the guy is up and about mere days after their battle, it is pure, absolute dumb luck Freeza just happened to get to Namek in the meantime and Vegeta had to prioritize that over revenge. If it wasn't for this, Vegeta would have come back and murdered everybody with Goku still in the hospital.

I don't think so. Vegeta is a Saiyan too, and if there's one thing he values, it's pride. With the fight that Goku just gave him, Vegeta wouldn't settle things like a coward and just kill everyone while Goku was in the hospital. If he wanted to kill Goku, I'd bet you he'd want to do it while Goku is at full power. He just lost too, so I doubt he'd head back so soon. Also, don't forget Vegeta knew about the Dragonballs on Namek, and was prioritizing going there first regardless of whether Freeza was going.

With Freeza, he vows revenge on him several times then proceeds to pointlessly dick around with him. He could've easily killed pre-50% Freeza by doubling his power with KK then snapping his neck, ending it right then and there but he doesn't. Same thing with 70% Freeza, he can kill him at any point but he risks losing his advantage (again) so he can quench his fighting boner.

There's no possible way Goku could have killed Freeza pre-Super Saiyan. Goku was definitely NOT fucking around with Freeza pre-Super Saiyan. He was giving it everything he had and was getting slaughtered. By the time he's Super Saiyan and Freeza is at 70%-100%, they're basically the only two on the entire, exploding planet. Freeza could survive the explosion too and breathe in space. Goku wanted to make him suffer for everything he had done. It was the most bloodthirsty and perhaps "evil" Goku has ever come close to, but understandably so given the circumstances. I don't really see it as that selfish since again, no one else was on the planet, there was no reason why Goku couldn't make him suffer.

The whole Cell debacle comes from his and everyone else' selfishness, instead of doing the smart thing as Bulma suggests, he and the others decide to fight for their own amusement. Causing thousands upon thousands of people to die and the Earth almost getting wiped out which is even worse than the apocalypse of Trunks' future. None of this didn't have to happen but it did, because Goku and the others were being selfish.

As Goku points out, Dr. Gero hadn't even done anything yet. How could they kill a man who was innocent? Also, I wouldn't say thousands upon thousands of people had to die. 19 and 20 blew up that one city, 17 and 18 killed like...a few people? They didn't even know about Cell's existence so you really can't put the blame on them for Cell draining all the life away from those cities. And then I believe Perfect Cell destroyed like an army or two, but to be fair they attacked him first.

And no, Goku doesn't refrain from using SS3 to stop Vegeta because he trusts Gohan or some such horseshit headcannon, in the manga and in Herms' strength checker Goku flat out says "I'm gonna use my maximum power so I can finish this quickly and Boo can't hatch!" Goku is going into his fight with Vegeta to be pragmatic.... until he randomly isn't by not laughing in Vegeta's face, using SS3 then punching his fucking teeth out like he verbally states he intends to do before Vegeta uses SS2. And don't tell me he wants to spare Vegeta's pride, he was disgusted by Vegeta murdering people to make the fight happen, why the hell should he care about this bastards pride?

I have no idea what you're talking about in regards to "horseshit headcanon". I think you're confusing what I said. I never said Goku refrains from using SSJ3 because he "trusts Gohan or some horseshit headcannon". Goku refrains from using SSJ3 because he doesn't want to insult Vegeta. It's selfish. At the same time though, he's counting on Gohan to take out Buu. Before he goes to fight Vegeta, he talks to Gohan and specifically tells him "Get angry Gohan. Remember the time you fought Cell, and bring out all the power you have. You can't lose to anyone that way - anyone!" He trusts that Gohan can take out Buu while he fights Vegeta. Only until Buu hatches does Goku realize how outmatched Gohan is, and stops his fight with Vegeta to convince him to go help fight Buu.

I don't count the Fat Boo thing as him being selfish, a lying cunt sure but not selfish. Him not using Vegetto to stomp Kid Boo is him being selfish by making an easy win pointessly harder so he can have a good fight. Or not ignoring Vegeta and simply having Gohan & Gotenks enter the fray and kill Kid Boo, the Spirit Bomb makes things much much harder but also much more interesting for him so fuck the safe route, let's pointlessly put everyone at risk again!

I mean, Goku felt that he had a chance of beating Kid Buu on his own without Potarra. I don't see how that's selfish. Remember, at that point in time Potarra was permanent. Why permanently fuse yourself if you think you might be able to beat him without fusion? Plus he knew Vegeta would never do that shit again. The whole "not bringing Gohan & Gotenks" thing was pure plot convenience. Toriyama wanted Goku to be the hero in the end.

Also, Goku has a plan: he intends to win the tournament and earn the wish with the Super Dragon Balls. With that he simply wish everybody back to life who Zeno kills. And don't tell me Zeno will just kill them all again, Zeno was willing to drop the rules because Bergamo asked him nicely, Goku can persuade them again to spare the universes at the end.

But Goku is fine with all of those people dying in the first place? I mean whenever the Earth is threatened, the Z fighters first reaction isn't "ah man fuck it don't worry about it bro we got the dragonballs it's cool". They'd be like "Oh shit man X just wiped out that city! All those people, man this is fucked."

Even if Goku plans to use the dragonballs, his intention should at least be known. Otherwise it just looks like he's an uncaring dick, and well to be honest he is an uncaring dick because even with the dragonballs you think he'd still show some contemplation about seven universes being destroyed and trillions of innocent people killed.

[Ki Breaker]

Count me in also in the camp that believes they're writing Goku this way on purpose, be it Toei or Toriyama, to showcase him the flaws of his thinking later on in the arc and hopefully develop the character. Of course you're gonna say Goku is out-of-character if you compare him to Saiyan or Freeza arc Goku, duh. It's the same as comparing Freeza arc Goku to RRA or Piccolo arc Goku. The character changes, he's not as static as most want you to believe. This is the fifth arc since Z has ended, Goku is bound to be different. In this case, he's negative traits have been bumped up to eleven. This is, as ekrolo stated, a very natural progression for a character that has always been selfish and reckless.

It's a bit counter-productive to develop him this way after what Toriyama did with him in BoG, but I guess Super did scrap that entirely anyway, so it doesn't matter. I pray that the execution is good, because they're really setting Goku up this arc as someone who doesn't care for the consequences of what he's doing. The way they'll try to make him seem like a good guy again is key.

Here's to hoping that please oh please... dont fck this up. This is DB we're talking about, its now or never, I'm starting to go with the flow of some people saying this will define super, as of now with how ballsy they've exposed Goku with... this may just be really what will define Super.

This is exactly what will define Super, I keep saying this but the natural end conclusion to this is that Goku meeting Beerus pretty much caused all the problems at the multiversal level. Reversing that means not shenanigans of destruction. But yes I 100% believe this is on purpose. In universe they literally have Goku described as the bad guy. It's not even subtle anymore and people still aren't coming to terms with it. And to be fair not everyone is going to like the idea of their favorite protagonist becoming a villain but that's the risk Super is taking and I'm interested to see how that goes.

Very interested to see how Western fans react to super dub of this tournament, those who see this for the first time as they are waiting for the dub..

shit's gonna blow up one way or the other

[SansrivaaL]

Here's to hoping that please oh please... dont fck this up. This is DB we're talking about, its now or never, I'm starting to go with the flow of some people saying this will define super, as of now with how ballsy they've exposed Goku with... this may just be really what will define Super.

This is exactly what will define Super, I keep saying this but the natural end conclusion to this is that Goku meeting Beerus pretty much caused all the problems at the multiversal level. Reversing that means not shenanigans of destruction. But yes I 100% believe this is on purpose. In universe they literally have Goku described as the bad guy. It's not even subtle anymore and people still aren't coming to terms with it. And to be fair not everyone is going to like the idea of their favorite protagonist becoming a villain but that's the risk Super is taking and I'm interested to see how that goes.

Very interested to see how Western fans react to super dub of this tournament, those who see this for the first time as they are waiting for the dub..

shit's gonna blow up one way or the other

We're all gonna have a good laugh with our discussions about this whole Goku gig thing they're doing once the arc finishes.

[Doctor.]

How could they kill a man who was innocent?

He built androids for the murderous Red Ribbon Army. He was anything but innocent.

You didn't have to kill him anyway. Ask Shenlong for the location of his hideout and destroy his research. Goku had no backup plan, he wanted to fight the androids. He was completely reckless and even admits it at the end of the arc.

[Asura]

How could they kill a man who was innocent?

He built androids for the murderous Red Ribbon Army. He was anything but innocent.

You didn't have to kill him anyway. Ask Shenlong for the location of his hideout and destroy his research. Goku had no backup plan, he wanted to fight the androids. He was completely reckless and even admits it at the end of the arc.

Goku wanted to beat the androids though. Goku felt like he could beat the androids though. If he beat the androids, he'd satisfy his selfish fighting needs and prevent innocent people from being harmed. It's selfish, but still does not compare to the current situation.

No such situation like that exists in this arc. The comparison would be fine and similar if the prize at the end was the universes NOT being erased, but Goku can only save Universe 7 by winning. He's doomed the others by default, and he has no way to fix that. He's completely at fault for it, and feels absolutely nothing.

Yes, the dragonballs can fix all, but we all know well enough in this show that the first thing people think of when someone (or a lot of people) die(s) isn't "ok lets go fix everything with the dragonballs no worry its cool lol". There's at least some kind of remorse, some kind of grief, some kind of anger. Some kind of EMOTION. Without emotion, nothing would have impact. What if the super dragon balls weren't a prize at the end? Goku would be fucked.

[Doctor.]

Goku wanted to beat the androids though. Goku felt like he could beat the androids though. If he beat the androids, he'd satisfy his selfish fighting needs and prevent innocent people from being harmed. It's selfish, but still does not compare to the current situation.

Feeling like he could beat the androids means squat. Especially considering we know he couldn't even beat #19, let alone #17 and #18. He was reckless. If things didn't turn out okay, he would be directly responsible for a future exactly the same as Trunks'. It's even worse than in this arc, because Goku knew what the outcome of the fight would be, and he still decided to recklessly go in anyway.

Yes, the dragonballs can fix all, but we all know well enough in this show that the first thing people think of when someone (or a lot of people) die(s) isn't "ok lets go fix everything with the dragonballs no worry its cool lol".

You sure about that?

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[ekrolo2]

I don't think so. Vegeta is a Saiyan too, and if there's one thing he values, it's pride. With the fight that Goku just gave him, Vegeta wouldn't settle things like a coward and just kill everyone while Goku was in the hospital. If he wanted to kill Goku, I'd bet you he'd want to do it while Goku is at full power. He just lost too, so I doubt he'd head back so soon.

Vegeta was up and about mere days after Goku losing to Goku and he would've been back a few days later if Freeza hadn't forced his hand by going to Namek. Also, Vegeta's pride only goes as far as its convenient for him, in the very arc we're talking about, Vegeta constantly uses subterfuge and underhanded tactics to compensate, pride be damned.

There's no possible way Goku could have killed Freeza pre-Super Saiyan. Goku was definitely NOT fucking around with Freeza pre-Super Saiyan. He was giving it everything he had and was getting slaughtered. By the time he's Super Saiyan and Freeza is at 70%-100%, they're basically the only two on the entire, exploding planet. Freeza could survive the explosion too and breathe in space. Goku wanted to make him suffer for everything he had done. It was the most bloodthirsty and perhaps "evil" Goku has ever come close to, but understandably so given the circumstances. I don't really see it as that selfish since again, no one else was on the planet, there was no reason why Goku couldn't make him suffer.

Yes, he could have. Pre-50%, Freeza and Goku are dead even and Freeza can't sense power. All Goku needs to do to win instantly is use KKX any from 2 to 10, take Freeza off guard and snap his fucking neck. That's how powers work in DB: a small difference means a absolute curb stomp.

So, instead of getting revenge like he vows too, he dicks around with Freeza until everything goes horribly wrong and this gets Krillin killed. Then instead of getting revenge again, he dicks around with Freeza some more so he can enjoy fighting him some more. Even though things can just as easily go horribly wrong for him and its sheer dumb luck they don't again.

As Goku points out, Dr. Gero hadn't even done anything yet. How could they kill a man who was innocent? Also, I wouldn't say thousands upon thousands of people had to die. 19 and 20 blew up that one city, 17 and 18 killed like...a few people? They didn't even know about Cell's existence so you really can't put the blame on them for Cell draining all the life away from those cities. And then I believe Perfect Cell destroyed like an army or two, but to be fair they attacked him first.

I meant the entire arc is a consequence of Goku and company being selfish. Hows about instead of trusting Goku's word, the word of a naive, selfish battle junkie, we ask Shenron for information on what Gero is like and make an actual informed opinion on whether or not it's wrong to preemptively kill him. Because causing the apocalypse and working for the RRA isn't evidence enough.

Then he doesn't even train well for the Androids, he doesn't use the ROSAT and he doesn't even bother helping Gohan achieve Super Saiyan when the kid is spitting distance away from Base Goku in power at this point. Why? Because Goku wants a good fight, fuck everyone and everything else in the process, we'll figure it out later on.

I have no idea what you're talking about in regards to "horseshit headcanon". I think you're confusing what I said. I never said Goku refrains from using SSJ3 because he "trusts Gohan or some horseshit headcannon". Goku refrains from using SSJ3 because he doesn't want to insult Vegeta. It's selfish. At the same time though, he's counting on Gohan to take out Buu. Before he goes to fight Vegeta, he talks to Gohan and specifically tells him "Get angry Gohan. Remember the time you fought Cell, and bring out all the power you have. You can't lose to anyone that way - anyone!" He trusts that Gohan can take out Buu while he fights Vegeta. Only until Buu hatches does Goku realize how outmatched Gohan is, and stops his fight with Vegeta to convince him to go help fight Buu.

This is Goku's stance on Vegeta and his pride: he doesn't care. Goku uses SS2 so he can beat Vegeta's teeth in and finish this so Boo doesn't hatch. When Vegeta uses SS2, Goku, if he wanted to stay true to his word, would've used SS3 to accomplish the same effect.

Goku doesn't give the beginnings of an inkling of a Kardashian's ass about sparing Vegeta and his pride. Goku is POINTLESSLY, making everything a hundred times more difficult than it has to be because he's being stupid and selfish when it doesn't need to be. A course of action I could somewhat understand if Gohan was treated like a total scrub and Goku didn't understand his son at all (which he doesn't, the Cell debacle proves this).

I mean, Goku felt that he had a chance of beating Kid Buu on his own without Potarra. I don't see how that's selfish. Remember, at that point in time Potarra was permanent. Why permanently fuse yourself if you think you might be able to beat him without fusion? Plus he knew Vegeta would never do that shit again. The whole "not bringing Gohan & Gotenks" thing was pure plot convenience. Toriyama wanted Goku to be the hero in the end.

Erm, because that's the responsible thing to do? And don't tell me they can't unfuse, they know they've got two sets of Dragon Balls that are designed to break the very rules of the cosmos, breaking a fusion seems far less implausible than mass resurrection which they can do.

My entire point of everything I said is that Goku makes things needlessly complicated than they need to be for his own enjoyment sake. Hell, Goku even chastize himself for being a moron for not simply using the Potara and saying he got too cocky for his own good! That's Goku's character, unless there is absolutely no concievable way in high hell for him to win, he WILL fuck himself and everyone over by helping out the bad guys even if there's just a 0.00000000000001% chance of winning.

But Goku is fine with all of those people dying in the first place? I mean whenever the Earth is threatened, the Z fighters first reaction isn't "ah man fuck it don't worry about it bro we got the dragonballs it's cool". They'd be like "Oh shit man X just wiped out that city! All those people, man this is fucked."

Even if Goku plans to use the dragonballs, his intention should at least be known. Otherwise it just looks like he's an uncaring dick, and well to be honest he is an uncaring dick because even with the dragonballs you think he'd still show some contemplation about seven universes being destroyed and trillions of innocent people killed.

Goku doesn't care about civilian casualties that happen away from him. In the Boo arc Bulma tells him Fat Boo will murder all of West City, including her parents and he just shrugs this off and says they'll fix it with the Dragon Balls. The only reason Goku fights Fat Boo period is so Trunks can get the radar, he was 100% fine with Boo murdering the entire Earth so he can train Goten and Trunks, why? Because the DBs are there to revive everybody once the conflict is resolved.

[Asura]

Goku wanted to beat the androids though. Goku felt like he could beat the androids though. If he beat the androids, he'd satisfy his selfish fighting needs and prevent innocent people from being harmed. It's selfish, but still does not compare to the current situation.

Feeling like he could beat the androids means squat. Especially considering we know he couldn't even beat #19, let alone #17 and #18. He was reckless. If things didn't turn out okay, he would be directly responsible for a future exactly the same as Trunks'. It's even worse than in this arc, because Goku knew what the outcome of the fight would be, and he still decided to recklessly go in anyway.

Yes, the dragonballs can fix all, but we all know well enough in this show that the first thing people think of when someone (or a lot of people) die(s) isn't "ok lets go fix everything with the dragonballs no worry its cool lol".

You sure about that?

[spoiler][/spoiler]

That's the only example in the entire series where Dragonballs are treated with such casualness. Hell, Bulma's own parents are the ones that brought the idea up first, saying to just revive them if they die. Goku was just rolling with it. I think it's fair point to forgive considering Goku was on a time-limit and really didn't want to have to try and defeat Buu by himself, but rather pass it off to the next generation. He knew that Buu would ravage the earth looking for Goten and Trunks and Piccolo, but it was a risk he had to take because again, time limit.

Still, even here it's interesting to note that they were at least discussing the idea beforehand of getting the Dragonballs before Buu even struck and did damage. The dragonballs haven't even been brought up at all by Goku in this arc, despite that being literally the only way to save the universes.

So the most popular reaction is emotion, anger, etc. when something bad happens

The more rare reaction (pretty sure that Buu arc discussion is the only example) is to talk about the dragonballs before something bad happens.

This arc hasn't followed any of those conventions so far. Goku just looks like a straight up dick who couldn't care less about the lives of innocent people.

[SansrivaaL]

All this being said, if a universe goes boom right infront of Goku and he cuts it off by saying "Thats one down, who's next? I'm excited! come at me" with a childish expression and giggly tone I am gonna lose it, that would be pushing it
That is most definitely not Akira Toriyama's Goku.

[Ki Breaker]

All this being said, if a universe goes boom right infront of Goku and he cuts it off by saying "Thats one down, who's next? I'm excited! come at me" with a childish expression and giggly tone I am gonna lose it, that would be pushing it
That is most definitely not Akira Toriyama's Goku.

That would be so infuriating it would turn hilarious, they might as well give the franchise to TFS after that

[Lord Beerus]

Even though some of these moments look dangerous most of them are debatable.
With Frieza, Goku already surpassed him by far. Also he had secured first thst every namekian+friend has left the planet.
-With Gero it was a mutual decision. Everyone wanted to fight.
-The senzu for Cell was also a low threat moment since he had already secured that Gohan was stronger than him in ssj1.
-It was a way to secure the planet's future.

Yes most of these moment show a quite I irresponsible person but they are debatable since he always had the possibilities on his side. Here we see everyone calling him a killer and him saying "hhhhmmmmm fuck them".
I already explained that he is an idiot who loves fighting but if one person came to Goku and said "Buu will kill 80% of the planet" he would immediately kill him. (also the buu part is debatable story wise since it feels like Toriyama is bsing us and retcons his ideas)

Still debatable moments with questionable results.

- Again, as I stated, there was absolutely no guarantee that Freeza would be still weaker than Goku after powering up to 100%. That was total gamble on Goku's part and luck heavily favoured him.
- And... what was the justification for letting the Androids being activated? They destroy the world in the future and are created by a man who worked with an army that tried to take over the world.
- Again, a needless gamble. Never mind that Goku had no idea just how strong Cell was, but it was already an insane gamble to throw Gohan into the lions den without any plan and just hoping that he'd be able to spontaneously tap into the hidden power that he saw when he was training with Gohan in the ROSAT and defeat Cell. I don't give a shit how much Goku loves fighting and a good competition. That was such a fucking reckless thing to do. It essentially put Gohan at a disadvantage. And for what? A fair fight? Fuck that nonsense.
- A gamble that horribly backfired. Gotenks and Gohan fool around and don't get the job done and end up getting absorbed. Then Kid Boo destroys the planet.

Here there is no question.
Unless Goku had a plan

Goku had no idea that Zeno wanted to wipe out eight universes. And he was put in a situation where he could hold back or throw the fight or all 12 universes would be destroyed and if he defeat Bergamo Zeno would still destroy the losing universes. He was fucked either way. And I mention before, why should even give a shit to begin with? He's ultimately fighting to save his own universe. He at least brought up of talking to Zeno to call off destroying the losing universes in the multiverse tournament, but his proposal was shot down by Whis. So it's not that he doesn't care entirely about the fate of the other universes. He's just accepted the fact there's nothing he can do other than fight to protect his won universe. Hence why he shows confidence, enthusiasm and disregard of the approving attitudes that the other Hakaishin, Kaioshin and fighters from the other universes have towards him.

Lord Beerus, with all due respect it sounds like you are trying really really hard to defend Goku's actions last episode. The writers could have made Goku for example, explain that he didn't know that Zeno was going to destroy all the universes instead of letting him embrace the villain role. Him embracing the villain role and saying 'bring it on' to people who are not clearly villains is out of character for me, even compared to the examples you just gave. A more in character response would be to say that he didnt know, he just wanted to see how strong everyone was etc but definitely not embracing that people want to kill him.

The concept of being a hero and a villain is alien to Goku. It doesn't matter to him what people perceive his actions to be. He reacts on instinct. Call Goku a hero, Goku won't give a shit. Call Goku a villain, he won't give a shit.

[Asura]

These replies are getting long-winded, but to sum up a reply to everything you said, I feel as if you're not looking at it from a "story" perspective, and more like a "well X character can do this so why didn't he???" perspective. Things only happen when the plot calls for it. Saying "Goku could have KKx20 and snapped Freeza's neck in a second" would never happen in the story, because that would make for a boring story. Trunks telling a whole long horrifying story of everyone dying to Androids, only for Bulma to say "ok lets just kill Gero now!" and everyone going "OK!" and destroying the entire lab, thereby skipping the entire android and cell sagas, would never happen in the story.

Sometimes things need to happen because they're convenient to the plot. Almost every anime is a victim of this. "Why didn't X just Y?" is a good question, except for the fact if X did Y, there wouldn't be a story. Sometimes Goku and co's decisions are made purely just to advance the plot. Goku isn't the only character victim to this. You could even say "Why didn't Gohan just Kamehameha Super Buu the second he showed up, and one shot him?" Again, boring story.

For the record though I still very much doubt that Goku could have surprised Freeza and snapped his neck. Freeza probably could have gone from pre-50% to well over 50% in a mere instant if he knew he was in any kind of serious danger.

Also I don't really understand how you think Krillin got killed due to Goku dicking around. Freeza was slaughtering Goku the entire time, there was nothing he could do. He could barely even stand after firing the spirit bomb. How the hell was it his fault that Krillin got killed?

Goku's official stance as to why he did not use SSJ3 during their fight comes right before Goku begs Vegeta to fuse with him.

Vegeta: When you fought me - you hid your true strength!! Were you manipulating me - or mocking me?! I saw it all in the afterlife! "Super Saiyan 3"!!? You turn my stomach!! You think I want to be one with you?!

Goku: ...I-I'm sorry. There was a limit to how long I could transform...I had to save it for later, just in case...

Goku would have sacrificed the Earth if it meant training Goten and Trunks, because he knew he wouldn't be around forever. If he killed Buu then and there (aside from being anti-climactic) then it would teach nothing to the next generation. He would rather sacrifice and revive those people if it meant that he could be sure of the peaceful future they would have once he was gone. It's a complicated situation that isn't as black and white as it appears. The time limit he was given changed everything he would be able to do and he had to decide how best to spend his time while assuring the future would be safe in hands that weren't his own.

[Kanassa]

These replies are getting long-winded, but to sum up a reply to everything you said, I feel as if you're not looking at it from a "story" perspective, and more like a "well X character can do this so why didn't he???" perspective. Things only happen when the plot calls for it. Saying "Goku could have KKx20 and snapped Freeza's neck in a second" would never happen in the story, because that would make for a boring story. Trunks telling a whole long horrifying story of everyone dying to Androids, only for Bulma to say "ok lets just kill Gero now!" and everyone going "OK!" and destroying the entire lab, thereby skipping the entire android and cell sagas, would never happen in the story.

Sometimes things need to happen because they're convenient to the plot. Almost every anime is a victim of this. "Why didn't X just Y?" is a good question, except for the fact if X did Y, there wouldn't be a story. Sometimes Goku and co's decisions are made purely just to advance the plot. Goku isn't the only character victim to this. You could even say "Why didn't Gohan just Kamehameha Super Buu the second he showed up, and one shot him?" Again, boring story.

You're looking from an out-of-universe perspective, which is pretty much useless in the context of this argument. Yes, it would of been boring if the characters had done x and y, but that doesn;t change the fact that they still did it. That action is a part of their character. They still did it. By your logic Goku shouldn't be judged for his actions in this arc because ''It'd be a boring arc if Goku didn't do X''

[TheMikado]

The concept of being a hero and a villain is alien to Goku. It doesn't matter to him what people perceive his actions to be. He reacts on instinct. Call Goku a hero, Goku won't give a shit. Call Goku a villain, he won't give a shit.

Come on guys, quit dumbing Goku down. He absolutely knows what a villain is, he's fought them numerous times. Goku knows what "bad" people are.
Goku knows right from wrong. He's no hero but the counter argument is taking it too far.