Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

SSJ and SSJG Goku were never equal. Goku didn't feel weaker since he didn't lose God's power, but he can't use SSJG's full power as a mere SSJ.

Yet another time, this is debatable as well. Do note that you are basically stating:

* Goku "doesn't feel weaker" than a Super Saiyan God (when he uses the Super Saiyan form in that scene).
* Goku is weaker than a Super Saiyan God (when he uses the Super Saiyan form in that scene).

Following your own line of logic, you can argue that they were never equal only if you doubt Goku's words. But there's nothing indicating that Goku is clearly wrong, and even Beerus sneering at him is inconclusive (I may argue in turn that he may even be using more power than before/ be bluffing/ both).

No, Goku didn't get weaker since he didn't lose God's power, but he can't use all of SSJG's power as an SSJ. No, that doesn't require Goku being wrong.

You can't argue that Goku was using more power as an SSJ since SSJG fading away wouldn't magically grant him more power. The entire scene points to Goku not using SSJG's full power as an SSJ.

-If Beerus states that there should be more to Goku's power due to absorbing God, followed by Goku powering up beyond what he was before in the next scene, then that shows that Goku wasn't using the full SSJG power prior to powering up.

-If Beerus states even after Goku powering up that he still won't be able to touch him at that level, then that makes it perfectly clear that Goku was still not operating at SSJG's level.

[LowRyder2005]

SSJ and SSJG Goku were never equal. Goku didn't feel weaker since he didn't lose God's power, but he can't use SSJG's full power as a mere SSJ.

Yet another time, this is debatable as well. Do note that you are basically stating:

* Goku "doesn't feel weaker" than a Super Saiyan God (when he uses the Super Saiyan form in that scene).
* Goku is weaker than a Super Saiyan God (when he uses the Super Saiyan form in that scene).

Following your own line of logic, you can argue that they were never equal only if you doubt Goku's words. But there's nothing indicating that Goku is clearly wrong, and even Beerus sneering at him is inconclusive (I may argue in turn that he may even be using more power than before/ be bluffing/ both).

No, Goku didn't get weaker since he didn't lose God's power, but he can't use all of SSJG's power as an SSJ. No, that doesn't require Goku being wrong.

You can't argue that Goku was using more power as an SSJ since SSJG fading away wouldn't magically grant him more power. The entire scene points to Goku not using SSJG's full power as an SSJ.

-If Beerus states that there should be more to Goku's power due to absorbing God, followed by Goku powering up beyond what he was before in the next scene, then that shows that Goku wasn't using the full SSJG power prior to powering up.

-If Beerus states even after Goku powering up that he still won't be able to touch him at that level, then that makes it perfectly clear that Goku was still not operating at SSJG's level.

Here's the thing: it doesn't point at it as nearly as explicitly as you're making it sound. To begin with, Goku is in Super Saiyan form; therefore yes, he needs to be wrong (or the phrase needs to be rather poorly worded) since he's misjudging his own power in that form. I got it that you're arguing he's somehow "feeling" some hidden power he may or may not be able to tap into in some circumstances, but the matter of fact is this is no more arbirtrary than many other inferences (especially since you are trying to corroborate a less-than-apparent meaning with the even less straightforward demeanor of Beerus).
Everything Beerus says is, on the other hand, arguably less relevant than Goku's straightforward statement about his power being the same in this particular context since:

A. We don't know Beerus' upper limit (and this already puts a serious monkey wrench in your rationale: "what if he was referring to his true power"? We can't answer it).
B. Beerus tends to bluff, mocking and understatements starting from the comparisons between Super Saiyan Goku and Freeza. It may be yet another case.

And between Goku being wrong (or if you prefer "misjudging his own power in Super Saiyan form") and Beerus bluffing/mocking the opponent yours are gut feelings. No better than mine or anyone else's.
If I wanted to nitpick, for instance, I could probably argue that since Beerus said "so, this is the power of the Super Saiyan God" - referring to Super Saiyan Goku bypassing Beerus' ability to nullify energy and pushing him back to space - during the last part of their fight, after your quote, that even if Goku was weaker he could not be that far off his God form. Or something similar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPaQaIWQY7Q

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Here's the thing: it doesn't point at it as nearly as explicitly as you're making it sound. To begin with, Goku is in Super Saiyan form; therefore yes, he needs to be wrong (or the phrase needs to be rather poorly worded) since he's misjudging his own power in that form. I got it that you're arguing he's somehow "feeling" some hidden power he may or may not be able to tap into in some circumstances, but the matter of fact is this is no more arbirtrary than many other inferences (especially since you are trying to corroborate a less-than-apparent meaning with the even less straightforward demeanor of Beerus).
Everything Beerus says is, on the other hand, arguably less relevant than Goku's straightforward statement about his power being the same in this particular context since:

A. We don't know Beerus' upper limit (and this already puts a serious monkey wrench in your rationale: "what if he was referring to his true power"? We can't answer it).
B. Beerus tends to bluff, mocking and understatements starting from the comparisons between Super Saiyan Goku and Freeza. It may be yet another case.

And between Goku being wrong (or if you prefer "misjudging his own power in Super Saiyan form") and Beerus bluffing/mocking the opponent yours are gut feelings. No better than mine or anyone else's.
If I wanted to nitpick, for instance, I could probably argue that since Beerus said "so, this is power of a Super Saiyan God" - referring to Super Saiyan Goku - during the last part of their fight, after your quote, that even if Goku was weaker he could not be that far off his God form. Or something similar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPaQaIWQY7Q

Goku is talking about his power as a whole, not in a single form. If he had reverted to base, he would've made the same statement and everybody would be saying that BOG base Goku=SSJG Goku.
Not like that would even make sense for him to say that his power decreased specifically as a Super Saiyan anyway.

Beerus taunts Goku stating that there should be more to his power due to absorbing God and Goku increases his power in the very next scene with Beerus stating "very good", so no that isn't just baseless taunting on Beerus' end. There isn't any other way to interpret that other than Goku not operating at SSJG's full power. Doesn't make any sense to write off the entire scene as "Beerus was bluffing".

Beerus is just talking about the entire fight in general. The end of the fight was close with Beerus being overall pleased with the Super Saiyan God.

[LowRyder2005]

Goku is talking about his power as a whole, not in a single form. If he had reverted to base, he would've made the same statement and everybody would be saying that BOG base Goku=SSJG Goku.
Not like that would even make sense for him to say that his power decreased specifically as a Super Saiyan anyway.

Goku is saying he doesn't "feel" weaker (at that moment). The context is that he wasn't even aware he had dropped out of Super Saiyan God and the scene was meant to convey that. Hence it'd be, in fact, perfectly natural for one to conclude he didn't lose any power at all.
At bare minimum, moreover, Goku feeling the power of a state he's not in like you're theorizing would be something quite literally unprecedented for the series; furthermore there's no implication he's talking about a power he's currently not using.
I mean, it'd all fine and dandy if you concluded with a nice "in my opinion", but since you keep acting it is like... I dunno... factual information? No, this is just your interpretation. There's not really much to add and I feel like I'm starting to repeat myself. Just out of sheer curiosity, but at this point may I just ask what is your ratio between Super Saiyan God Goku, Super Saiyan Goku and Beerus in the very last part of the fight?

Beerus is just talking about the entire fight in general. The end of the fight was close with Beerus being overall pleased with the Super Saiyan God.

Putting aside the part about the bluff because it'd be like beating a dead horse, are you saying he'd suggest that to the audience when fighting an opponent whom - according to you - would be appreciably weaker than the Super Saiyan God?

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Goku is saying he doesn't "feel" weaker (at that moment). The context is that he wasn't even aware he had dropped out of Super Saiyan God and the scene was meant to convey that. Hence it'd be, in fact, perfectly natural for one to conclude he didn't lose any power at all.
At bare minimum, moreover, Goku feeling the power of a state he's not in like you're theorizing would be something quite literally unprecedented for the series; furthermore there's no implication he's talking about a power he's currently not using.
I mean, it'd all fine and dandy if you concluded with a nice "in my opinion", but since you keep acting it is like... I dunno... factual information? No, this is just your interpretation. There's not really much to add and I feel like I'm starting to repeat myself. Just out of sheer curiosity, but at this point may I just ask what is your ratio between Super Saiyan God Goku, Super Saiyan Goku and Beerus in the very last part of the fight?

Not the same thing since Goku does possess Super Saiyan God's power in all of his forms, but just it's essence, not the actual god ki.

The gap between SSJ & SSJG Goku would have to be a lot. All of Goku's Super Saiyan transformations would have to fit in between SSJ and SSJG and the gap between SSJ3 and SSJG still has to be huge.

[spoiler]Super Saiyan God Goku: 275,000,000,000,000

Base Goku(God essence): 17,187,500,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 859,375,000,000[/spoiler]

Putting aside the part about the bluff because it'd be like beating a dead horse, are you saying he'd suggest that to the audience when fighting an opponent whom - according to you - would be appreciably weaker than the Super Saiyan God?

He's talking about the whole fight in general and Goku did have Super Saiyan God's power, he just wasn't using all of it. Goku would still be far above every other Z-fighter at this point, still well into "godly ranges", but not on par with Super Saiyan God.

[LowRyder2005]

He's talking about the whole fight in general and Goku did have Super Saiyan God's power, he just wasn't using all of it. Goku would still be far above every other Z-fighter at this point, still well into "godly ranges", but not on par with Super Saiyan God.

As I thought. This is basically going nowhere, though; you keep connecting factoids to more factoids as explanations to trying to present everything you are stating as factual.
I mean, I have no problems with your mental picture; doesn't change the fact that most of what you've said up until no didn't really hold up against basic scrutiny when presented as "fact". How can you prove Beerus was not referring to the power Goku was displaying at that very moment?

[ChiefWamsutta]

DBZ and BoG Pre-SSG Absorption: Base Goku = 50% Frieza (Namek Saga)

BoG Post-SSG Absorption: Base Goku = SS3 Goku (Buu Saga)

RoF: Base Goku = Super Buu

U6: Base Goku = Ultimate Gohan (Buu Saga)

Future Trunks and Universe Survival: Base Goku = Base Vegito (Buu Saga)

This makes the most sense to me where Goku's one Base is at ... because ... I am so emotionally exhausted with this powerscaling. I have tried to be open to numerous ideas that the fanbase has come up with. I'm just done, to be honest. I'm just fucking done. This is my headcanon until clearly stated otherwise by the anime.

There is just too much contradictory evidence and nothing is even remotely clear anymore. I'm done trying to explain their mess. They had the option for Elder Kai to point out Goku's powerlevel when he was fighting in Base against Bergamo, but they didn't.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

He's talking about the whole fight in general and Goku did have Super Saiyan God's power, he just wasn't using all of it. Goku would still be far above every other Z-fighter at this point, still well into "godly ranges", but not on par with Super Saiyan God.

As I thought. This is basically going nowhere, though; you keep connecting factoids to more factoids as explanations to trying to present everything you are stating as factual.
I mean, I have no problems with your mental picture; doesn't change the fact that most of what you've said up until no didn't really hold up against basic scrutiny when presented as "fact". How can you prove Beerus was not referring to the power Goku was displaying at that very moment?

What are you talking about? Beerus didn't say anything. All he said is that the God power merged with Goku's own. Goku states that his power didn't feel any weaker. That refers to the quality, nothing else. He was right. He was still operating under the Super Saiyan God power, the same he was using prior. He didn't revert back to the power he had originally. He was not using God's full power as a mere SSJ.

I've already stated multiple times why SSJ Goku wasn't using the full SSJG power and I showed you the statements from the episode itself. You brushed it off as "Beerus was bluffing" even though Goku was shown increasing his power after the statement with Beerus' acknowledging such an increase , so you didn't actually counter anything.

[LowRyder2005]

He's talking about the whole fight in general and Goku did have Super Saiyan God's power, he just wasn't using all of it. Goku would still be far above every other Z-fighter at this point, still well into "godly ranges", but not on par with Super Saiyan God.

As I thought. This is basically going nowhere, though; you keep connecting factoids to more factoids as explanations to trying to present everything you are stating as factual.
I mean, I have no problems with your mental picture; doesn't change the fact that most of what you've said up until no didn't really hold up against basic scrutiny when presented as "fact". How can you prove Beerus was not referring to the power Goku was displaying at that very moment?

What are you talking about? Beerus didn't say anything. All he said is that the God power merged with Goku's own. Goku states that his power didn't feel any weaker. That refers to the quality, nothing else. He was right. He was still operating under the Super Saiyan God power, the same he was using prior. He didn't revert back to the power he had originally. He was not using God's full power as a mere SSJ.

I've already stated multiple times why SSJ Goku wasn't using the full SSJG power and I showed you the statements from the episode itself. You brushed it off as "Beerus was bluffing" even though Goku was shown increasing his power after the statement with Beerus' acknowledging such an increase , so you didn't actually counter anything.

At the end of the very Super Saiyan Goku vs. Beerus extract you were implementing as "proof of the fact that Goku was far below his Super Saiyan God level" Beerus says "so this is the power of the Super Saiyan God!" when Super Saiyan Goku is punching Beerus and propelling them both into orbit. Notice "this", "the", and "the". Besides, if Goku's using a little of his former power then he's be no means near the "power of a Super Saiyan God" and it'd be - at the very least - a really counterintuitive choice of words (kind of similar to your idea that ever since Goku loses his godly aura the intended message is "Goku doesn't feel weaker, but at the moment he's weaker"). You can see it in the post just above yours.

Technically speaking, I didn't have to counter anything because most of the crucial points in your theories are 100% arbitrary and rely on you taking an arbitrary turn at some kind of impasse; like people talking about the "quality of the ki" instead of the "quantity of ki". In practice, it would be like me starting to omit an "IMHO" at the end of everything for things I personally believe. Wouldn't make anything I say any less aporetic, falsifiable or just open to legitimate criticism.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

At the end of the very Super Saiyan Goku vs. Beerus extract you were implementing as "proof of the fact that Goku was far below his Super Saiyan God level" he literally says "so this is the power of the Super Saiyan God!" when Super Saiyan Goku is punching Beerus and sending both of them in orbit. If he's using a little of his power then he's be no means near the "power of a Super Saiyan God". You can see in the post just above yours.

He says "This is the power of the Super Saiyan God."

Goku is the Super Saiyan God and Beerus is remarking on his power in general. That's it. Not from just right that second, but over the course of the entire fight.

Technically speaking, I didn't have to counter anything because most of the crucial points in your theories are 100% arbitrary and rely on you taking an arbitrary turn at some kind of impasse; like people talking about the "quality of the ki" instead of the "quantity of ki". In practice, it would be like me starting to omit an "IMHO" at the end of everything for things I personally believe.

That's what he's talking about. Goku said that his power didn't get weaker as he said.

The power that Goku used as an SSJG=Super Saiyan God power.

The power that Goku used post god=Super Saiyan God power.

Again, I already posted the scene where Beerus states that Goku's power should be more, with Goku then increasing his power, with Beerus acknowledging it. That means that he wasn't using SSJG's full power no matter how you slice it. You can keep choosing to ignore it like you have done this entire time, but I'll just take it as a concession.

[LowRyder2005]

Goku is the Super Saiyan God and Beerus is remarking on his power in general. That's it. Not from just right that second, but over the course of the entire fight.

That's not what a deduction is supposed to be. You're just repeating the conclusion you are trying to reach.

You can keep choosing to ignore it like you have done this entire time, but I'll just take it as a concession.

I'm not ignoring anything because it doesn't prove anything: Goku is on the losing side of the fight, then he gets up, charges his ki and launches a Kamehameha. And? It could even suggest - among many other things - that Goku was even stronger than SSG (which couldn't be only because you again added it as an arbitrary precondition; because "it'd be magic", or something). After all, narrator and titles do talk about a Goku "surpassing the Gods". But I'll just stick with the fact that no one talks bout Goku's power rising - especially - and that the aura and kiai could have simply been there because he was trying to charge the energy blast; or that it necessary after being beaten into submission by Beerus. Honestly, I could go on and on.

And no, the problem with your theory is another one: at the end of the fight Beerus calls Goku's power "the power of the Super Saiyan God" when he's getting pushed by Super Saiyan Goku; your idea that he's talking about a maximum power output far inferior to that of the SSG and referring to something more abstract or more distant in time is entirely open to legitimate criticism and is by no means a "fact" (we'd be all, tentatively, supposed to accept). It's clear that you don't want to hear any (rhyme or) reason about this, though.

[ChiefWamsutta]

*snip*

*snip*

I really don't have a dog in this fight, but I think an important question that hasn't been addressed would be:

Which allows for a more consistent story power-scaling-wise?

1) SS Goku is at SSGod Goku level
2) SS Goku is below SSGod Goku level

[LowRyder2005]

I really don't have a dog in this fight, but I think an important question that hasn't been addressed would be:

Which allows for a more consistent story power-scaling-wise?

1) SS Goku is at SSGod Goku level
2) SS Goku is below SSGod Goku level

You'd do well not to, in fact. Given the general tone it's been an affair of the petty kind.
About your query, I think that may be indirectly the point, right? Other than, well, making a lecture about scientific falsifiability.
I mean, if our supersaiyangodgogeta believes everything to be a "fact", it could very well indicate he thinks it's the most consistent way to gauge the proper power scaling as well.

Me, I don't know. I think that visuals and narrative give out a pretty strong suggestion that Goku is equal or practically equal to his Super Saiyan God form in that fight. Afterwards? Not so much, but that's probably beside the point.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

That's not what a deduction is supposed to be. You're just repeating the conclusion you are trying to reach.

I'm just telling you what the statement means. Goku didn't become the Super Saiyan God right before he punched Beerus. He was the Super Saiyan God over the course of the entire fight, so Beerus is just talking about Goku in general.

I'm not ignoring anything because it doesn't prove anything: Goku is on the losing side of the fight, then he gets up, charges his ki and launches a Kamehameha. And? It could even suggest - among many other things - that Goku was even stronger than SSG (which couldn't be only because you again added it as an arbitrary precondition; because "it'd be magic", or something). After all, narrator and titles do talk about a Goku "surpassing the Gods". But I'll just stick with the fact that no one talks bout Goku's power rising - especially - and that the aura and kiai could have simply been there because he was trying to charge the energy blast; or that it necessary after being beaten into submission by Beerus. Honestly, I could go on and on.

And no, the problem with your theory is another one: at the end of the fight Beerus calls Goku's power "the power of the Super Saiyan God" when he's getting pushed by Super Saiyan Goku; your idea that he's talking about a maximum power output far inferior to that of the SSG and referring to something more abstract or more distant in time is entirely open to legitimate criticism and is by no means a "fact" (we'd be all, tentatively, supposed to accept). It's clear that you don't want to hear (any rhyme or) reason about this, though.

Doesn't make any sense since Beerus taunts Goku about his power being inadequate and says "very good" in response to Goku increasing his power. If Goku's power stayed the same, then that means that he would have remained at the level that Beerus deemed inadequate.
It had nothing to do with him firing a Kamehameha, not like that makes any sense anyway.

Everything talks about Goku "evolving" Super Saiyan God, which is just a reference to making the temporary power his own and becoming a Saiyan Beyond God. He didn't surpass SSJG's power. The only power that was directly stated to exceed Super Saiyan God was Super Saiyan Blue.

[buutenks]

Well officially, only ssj blue surpassed ssg, since stated in universe by the narrator.

So basically base<ssj1-3<ssg<ssj blue. This is further solidified by Vegeta when he tells Trunks that Goku's ssj3 power is barely the tip of the iceberg. Plus base copy Vegeta failed to defeat Gotenks with one blow, he needed to attack him multiple times and even then Gotenks was not knocked out, he just defused and then Vegeta was about to kill them with a ki blast.

U can head canon as much as u like, but officially only ssj blue surpassed ssg and all other statements and feats pretty much show the same thing.

[Cabba]

I think episode 81 was very interesting in showing Goku strength in base and regular ssj since there was this lingering doubt among same that they went back to their "majin saga" levels
Bergamo who is the strongest of the Trio de Danger brothers (without goku giving him extra powers) is most definitely above Majin Saga SS2 tier. We already seen his weakest brother Basil fight at >SS2 Majin Saga tier level against Buu
Goku was able to keep up with him in base form and dominate him as regular SSJ

[LowRyder2005]

I'm just telling you what the statement means. Goku didn't become the Super Saiyan God right before he punched Beerus. He was the Super Saiyan God over the course of the entire fight, so Beerus is just talking about Goku in general.

That's not what the statement means. It's just how you chose to read it. I could just tell you "no, I think it was referring to that moment in which Goku reached the full power of a Super Saiyan God, which he had access to in his Super Saiyan form". And it's painfully clear at this point that you can't really disprove it since you keep keep reiterating the same point ad libitum.

Doesn't make any sense since Beerus taunts Goku about his power being inadequate and says "very good" in response to Goku increasing his power. If Goku's power stayed the same, then that means that he would have remained at the level that Beerus deemed inadequate.
It had nothing to do with him firing a Kamehameha, not like that makes any sense anyway.

Everything talks about Goku "evolving" Super Saiyan God, which is just a reference to making the temporary power his own and becoming a Saiyan Beyond God. He didn't surpass SSJG's power. The only power that was directly stated to exceed Super Saiyan God was Super Saiyan Blue.

Again, you don't get that you're not proving much. Do you have any way to prove that:

A. Goku could not have been stronger than a Super Saiyan God the moment he turned into a Super Saiyan and then became slightly stronger the moment he fired the Kamehameha? Although you deem it silly or improbable, I believe it has been proven you can't, really.
B. Goku started out slightly weaker than a Super Saiyan God and then reached a power equal to a Super Saiyan God at the end of the fight? Same as above.

So if there's no argument to be had it's because - for the umpteenth time - you are not presenting any fact, just your interpretation. I mean, it's not like I'm even trying to be particularly belligerent here; it's just that given Super's not-exactly-linear writing there's simply enough room for many (conflicting) theories. As another sensible user very wisely said, "it's fair to be critical, but it's critical to be fair".

[Cabba]

DBZ and BoG Pre-SSG Absorption: Base Goku = 50% Frieza (Namek Saga)

This i will always challenge, all because one comment beerus made in the movie which was not even clear cut: All he said was in this state i dont think you could defeat anyone, Goku was not even powering up his base form here it seems unfathomable to me that up until that point (majin saga) gokus power in base form did not change one bit since his fight in namek, this is ludicrous
Piccolo who was faaaar below Base form Goku in namek saga was able to surpass Android 20 thanks to his training with Goku for 3 years, are you telling me that Goku who is much more talented than him in base form could not even reach Android 20 in his base form?

Is there some fan theory going around that after reaching SSJ you base form powe lv does not suffer change anymore?
I mean we seen both Gohan and Goku comment how vegeta punches got stronger while he was fighting pui in babibis ship

[Beyond]

DBZ and BoG Pre-SSG Absorption: Base Goku = 50% Frieza (Namek Saga)

This i will always challenge, all because one comment beerus made in the movie which was not even clear cut: All he said was in this state i dont think you could defeat anyone, Goku was not even powering up his base form here it seems unfathomable to me that up until that point (majin saga) gokus power in base form did not change one bit since his fight in namek, this is ludicrous
Piccolo who was faaaar below Base form Goku in namek saga was able to surpass Android 20 thanks to his training with Goku for 3 years, are you telling me that Goku who is much more talented than him in base form could not even reach Android 20 in his base form?

Is there some fan theory going around that after reaching SSJ you base form powe lv does not suffer change anymore?
I mean we seen both Gohan and Goku comment how vegeta punches got stronger while he was fighting pui in babibis ship

Goku isn't more talented than Piccolo. Talent doesn't equal power. Goku just works harder, has transformations, and has better teachers.

[buutenks]

TBH i never liked the idea that base saiyans were stronger than FF Freeza even before BoG. Beerus' statement made me smile hehe.

The whole base saiyans>everyone else thing is from Vegeta claiming he will win even without transforming. That IMO is simply rubbish, since Vegeta is full of BS most of the time.

What is odd IMO is that if base copy Vegeta is ssg level, why did he took so much time to down Gotenks? This gave me the impression, that while very strong, base isnt at god level, maybe ssj1-3 is and ssj blue is higher.