The two-base theory can't work (whole god ki thing)

[ryan s]

I used to see youtubers talking about god ki AKA the two base theory, though it has died down for ages now, but still from statements it can't work

1) it is stated by the narrator and Beerus that Goku in BOG absorbed SSG into his body, and it is stated Goku could be sensed by everyone

2) In episode 18 it is stated Vegeta may be stronger than this Goku, and it is then shown that this Vegeta does not have god ki in episode 22 (he didn't even know what it felt like)

Minute: 15
Context: Goku and Vegeta are placed inside Whis' staff

Goku: "I can't move...!"
Vegeta: "I get it. If I control my ki so that it doesn't leak after having raised it, I can move."
Goku: "I see! You know your stuff, Vegeta! Finally I can move. But this sure is rough."
Vegeta: "Is this godly ki? The pressure is immense."
Vegeta: "Hey, Kakarrot. Doesn't this resemble that one place?"
Goku: "Yeah. There’s no mistaking this hot, suffocating feeling. This place is just like the Room of Spirit and Time. I'm sure time flows differently here too, and there ain't no exit either."

3) Goku black is on par with SSJ3 Goku according to trunks, if we say Goku got no stronger than he was in battle of gods, Goku black would still be 8x stronger than SSG in his base form


4) Vegeta later surpassed a very powered up Goku black and with SSR=SSB, we can conclude Base Vegeta > Base Goku black


from statements and facts from the show, we know without god ki Goku and Vegeta would be many times above SSG in their base forms

so
BOG
SSG=SSJ

Black Arc
Goku black>= SSJ3>SSJ2>SSJ=SSG

I won't get into a debate over multipliers , Goku black took over Goku's body by switching brains, in no way shape or form could that affect a multiplier of a saiyan. a official source did confirm that it was simply his version of super saiyan blue (so same multiplier) and Geekdom101 showed Toriyamas notes which confirmed it was in fact his version of SSB (Manga chapter 19 review)

[Saturnine]

You're forgetting one vital thing here. Another statement. Goku says that SSj Blue is what happens "when a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God transforms into a Super Saiyan".

According to what you wrote, Goku, who had the power of a god, transformed into SSj 1 through 3, and yet didn't go Blue. That would be impossoble.

And don't let me mention Cabba, Future Trunks and all other characters who simply cannot be God-tier.

Face it, initially after RoF there was supposed to only be a godly base stronger than SSjG and SSj Blue on top of that. They retconned it though, to make room for regular SSj transformations, probably thinking of fanservice. In the manga there is no godly base at all, there's the regular SSj god form that signifies that tier of power. And that was Toyotaro's mostly successful attempt to sort out this mess.

In RoF and Potaufeu sagas: SBG -> SSJB
In all other sagas: Base -> SSj -> SSj2 -> SSj3 -> SSj God (Manga only) -> SSj Blue

[ryan s]

You're forgetting one vital thing here. Another statement. Goku says that SSj Blue is what happens "when a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God transforms into a Super Saiyan".

According to what you wrote, Goku, who had the power of a god, transformed into SSj 1 through 3, and yet didn't go Blue. That would be impossoble.

And don't let me mention Cabba, Future Trunks and all other characters who simply cannot be God-tier.

Face it, initially after RoF there was supposed to only be a godly base stronger than SSjG and SSj Blue on top of that. They retconned it though, to make room for regular SSj transformations, probably thinking of fanservice. In the manga there is no godly base at all, there's the regular SSj god form that signifies that tier of power. And that was Toyotaro's mostly successful attempt to sort out this mess.

In RoF and Potaufeu sagas: SBG -> SSJB
In all other sagas: Base -> SSj -> SSj2 -> SSj3 -> SSj God (Manga only) -> SSj Blue

this literally changes nothing and refutes nothing. it's clearly not impossible as it was literally done in BOG, he was a SSJ with the power of SSG yet he was clearly not SSB. you have used one quote which disproves nothing.

Goku absorbed the power of SSG and it became his own, so he can transform into SSG again that is quite clear so please provide better proof

1) Goku absorbs SSG
2) it becomes his own power, so his own power just has a massive boost ie SSJ=SSG
3) he can still turn into a SSG
5) SSJ (post BOG) + SSG = SSB

why can they not be God tier? they are the strongest in their universe. it seems , the only one that needs to face facts here is you.

Trunks also survived a year with Goku black learning how to control his body and had many many years of training, it's only natural he would be that strong

[Doctor.]

Of course it can't work, nothing in terms of powerscalling in Super works. The theory exists as a sort of way to explain Super's inconsistent mess, nobody actually believes the writers thought of it on their own.

[ryan s]

Of course it can't work, nothing in terms of powerscalling in Super works. The theory exists as a sort of way to explain Super's inconsistent mess, nobody actually believes the writers thought of it on their own.

Supers power scaling is fine, it just doesn't make sense in terms how how certain characters are that strong.

[Doctor.]

Of course it can't work, nothing in terms of powerscalling in Super works. The theory exists as a sort of way to explain Super's inconsistent mess, nobody actually believes the writers thought of it on their own.

Supers power scaling is fine, it just doesn't make sense in terms how how certain characters are that strong.

It it makes no sesne, then it isn't fine. It's bad.

[ryan s]

Of course it can't work, nothing in terms of powerscalling in Super works. The theory exists as a sort of way to explain Super's inconsistent mess, nobody actually believes the writers thought of it on their own.

Supers power scaling is fine, it just doesn't make sense in terms how how certain characters are that strong.

It it makes no sesne, then it isn't fine. It's bad.

i don't think it's that bad. the only thing that has been a dealbreaker was SSB Goku pushing back merged Zamasu

that is indefensible imo

[Doctor.]

i don't think it's that bad. the only thing that has been a dealbreaker was SSB Goku pushing back merged Zamasu

that is indefensible imo

Hit keeping up with the Kaioken somehow isn't indefensible?

[ryan s]

i don't think it's that bad. the only thing that has been a dealbreaker was SSB Goku pushing back merged Zamasu

that is indefensible imo

Hit keeping up with the Kaioken somehow isn't indefensible?

eh at least they explained he has never tried to get better and Goku is pushing him to his potential. Merged Zamasu was a hand wave

[Tectorman]

i don't think it's that bad. the only thing that has been a dealbreaker was SSB Goku pushing back merged Zamasu

that is indefensible imo

Hit keeping up with the Kaioken somehow isn't indefensible?

eh at least they explained he has never tried to get better and Goku is pushing him to his potential. Merged Zamasu was a hand wave

I find the U6 Hit fight and the first Goku vs Zamasu fight being the biggest supports for the two-base theory.

In the anime*, Hit is explicitly stated to not be powering up. He improves the duration of his time skip but everything else he has going for him (speed, strength, durability, the quality of the attacks he's allowed to use under the tournament rules) stays the same throughout the whole fight. And he shows the same ability to contend with Goku regardless of what form Goku's in (something-that-looks-like-Base, SSB, SSBKK). I really don't know how to view that fight as anything other than "Base approximate to SSB approximate to SSBKKx10", short of ignoring it outright.

But later, Goku's SSJ2 is explicitly "several dozens of times" stronger than his Base. And later in that same arc, we know that SSJ3 is still significantly above SSJ2, and SSB is above SSJ3.

I really don't know what to conclude from that other than:

1) Goku has two SSBs, one barely above his Base (as shown in the Hit fight) and the other way above everything else (based on the later material).

2) Goku has one Base and one SSB and he just decided to transform into a SSB against Hit and then suppress its power to barely above Base for some unknowable reason. Same thing for him wrecking his body to go up to Kaioken x10 while, again, suppressing that power down to barely above what he had before. Again, why?

Or 3) Goku has two Bases, one significantly below SSB (as shown by the later material) and the other almost at SSB (as shown by the Hit fight and in keeping with the movies and the end of the BoG fight in Super).

Needless to say, I find 3) to be the most plausible, but maybe someone else finds 1) or 2) more plausible. And if there's another way to reconcile those two scenes, I'd love to hear it.

Because it'll probably come up:
[spoiler]"But if he has Saiyan beyond God at his disposal, then why bother with the lesser forms when he can be just as powerful by suppressing down from SbG?"

We got the answer to that in RoF. RoF showed that fighters fighting lesser opponents with their power suppressed to their opponents' level do become fatigued. So if Goku were to fight as a suppressed SbG, he would likewise face eventual fatigue. An unknown but non-trivial drain. And we know that SSJ2 and SSJ3 have their own drain (again, unknown but non-trivial). So it's really just a case of "six of one, half a dozen of the other". He'll face some manner of fatigue no matter what so we might as well chalk it up to a coin flip.[/spoiler]

*[spoiler]I'm only keeping up with the manga as it's translated in English, but so far as I've seen, because Goku never takes SSJG's power into any of his other forms (unlike the movies and the anime) and because Hit actually does power up during his fight with Goku, the two-base theory is unnecessary in the manga.[/spoiler]

[emperior]

The manga has no problems with Goku and Vegeta's power in base but has many others with the whole "Vegeta was 1/10 against Hit" and the fact Black can go Super Saiyan and beat Vegeta after one Zenkai, not to mention Base Black = SSJ2 Trunks = SSJ3 Goku < SSJ2 Vegeta

[TheUltimateNinja]

The manga has no problems with Goku and Vegeta's power in base but has many others with the whole "Vegeta was 1/10 against Hit" and the fact Black can go Super Saiyan and beat Vegeta after one Zenkai, not to mention Base Black = SSJ2 Trunks = SSJ3 Goku < SSJ2 Vegeta

The manga's power scale is all kinds of fucked right now.
SSJ2 Trunks ~ SSJ3 Goku < Base Black < SSJ Black < SSJ2 Vegeta < SSBlue Vegeta < SSJ Black (Zenkai) < SSRose Black < SSBlue Vegeta (Post RoSAT)

[emperior]

The manga has no problems with Goku and Vegeta's power in base but has many others with the whole "Vegeta was 1/10 against Hit" and the fact Black can go Super Saiyan and beat Vegeta after one Zenkai, not to mention Base Black = SSJ2 Trunks = SSJ3 Goku < SSJ2 Vegeta

The manga's power scale is all kinds of fucked right now.
SSJ2 Trunks ~ SSJ3 Goku < Base Black < SSJ Black < SSJ2 Vegeta < SSBlue Vegeta < SSJ Black (Zenkai) < SSRose Black < SSBlue Vegeta (Post RoSAT)

It's totally fucked up, the only explanation Toyotaro can come up with is that Vegeta was using some of his God Ki when SSJ2 like Goku did against Trunks. But then I think it would still be a mess for that Vegeta vs Hit fight.
And Toyotaro is banking on the fact he skipped the RoF arc so he avoided the whole two bases deal. If RoF in the manga is the same as in the movie (I doubt the events played out differently, even though we didn't see it) then it makes the manga U6 Tournament arc as much as a mess as it is in the anime

[Desassina]

I have a very simple explanation: they're branches of a single base transformation. Super Saiyan becomes stronger by powering it up with anger (in Gohan's case) and strain, which is the numbered SSJ branch, while Super Saiyan Blue is calm and won't let their power leak. They're not too far apart to make Trunks fight alongside SSJB Goku in DB Super, but let him surpass the latter with a new form, while Goku can multiply his with Kaioken. Since Super Kaioken Blue is Goku's straining form/technique, I would compare it to Super Saiyan 3 in terms of power, while SSJB is the equivalent of SSJ2 from a Super Saiyan base. This is how the characters can be placed like this:

SSJ Ikari Trunks ~ SSJ3 Goku ~ KKx10 SSJB Goku ~ SSJR Goku Black > SSJB Goku & Vegeta ~ SSJ2 Goku & Trunks ~ Goku Black

So that it all comes down to the characters not having used some forms. SSJG has made Goku much stronger than before, while Whis' training did the same for Vegeta, although in a regular state.

[ryan s]

Hit keeping up with the Kaioken somehow isn't indefensible?

eh at least they explained he has never tried to get better and Goku is pushing him to his potential. Merged Zamasu was a hand wave

I find the U6 Hit fight and the first Goku vs Zamasu fight being the biggest supports for the two-base theory.

In the anime*, Hit is explicitly stated to not be powering up. He improves the duration of his time skip but everything else he has going for him (speed, strength, durability, the quality of the attacks he's allowed to use under the tournament rules) stays the same throughout the whole fight. And he shows the same ability to contend with Goku regardless of what form Goku's in (something-that-looks-like-Base, SSB, SSBKK). I really don't know how to view that fight as anything other than "Base approximate to SSB approximate to SSBKKx10", short of ignoring it outright.

But later, Goku's SSJ2 is explicitly "several dozens of times" stronger than his Base. And later in that same arc, we know that SSJ3 is still significantly above SSJ2, and SSB is above SSJ3.

I really don't know what to conclude from that other than:

1) Goku has two SSBs, one barely above his Base (as shown in the Hit fight) and the other way above everything else (based on the later material).

2) Goku has one Base and one SSB and he just decided to transform into a SSB against Hit and then suppress its power to barely above Base for some unknowable reason. Same thing for him wrecking his body to go up to Kaioken x10 while, again, suppressing that power down to barely above what he had before. Again, why?

Or 3) Goku has two Bases, one significantly below SSB (as shown by the later material) and the other almost at SSB (as shown by the Hit fight and in keeping with the movies and the end of the BoG fight in Super).

Needless to say, I find 3) to be the most plausible, but maybe someone else finds 1) or 2) more plausible. And if there's another way to reconcile those two scenes, I'd love to hear it.

Because it'll probably come up:
[spoiler]"But if he has Saiyan beyond God at his disposal, then why bother with the lesser forms when he can be just as powerful by suppressing down from SbG?"

We got the answer to that in RoF. RoF showed that fighters fighting lesser opponents with their power suppressed to their opponents' level do become fatigued. So if Goku were to fight as a suppressed SbG, he would likewise face eventual fatigue. An unknown but non-trivial drain. And we know that SSJ2 and SSJ3 have their own drain (again, unknown but non-trivial). So it's really just a case of "six of one, half a dozen of the other". He'll face some manner of fatigue no matter what so we might as well chalk it up to a coin flip.[/spoiler]

*[spoiler]I'm only keeping up with the manga as it's translated in English, but so far as I've seen, because Goku never takes SSJG's power into any of his other forms (unlike the movies and the anime) and because Hit actually does power up during his fight with Goku, the two-base theory is unnecessary in the manga.[/spoiler]

you didn't really dispute the facts just ignored them. the two base theory can't work.

[LowRyder2005]

This thread appeared at a peculiar time, considering that in the latest episode of Super it has been indirectly confirmed that only by going Super Saiyan Blue does Goku possess a power "rivaling that of the gods".

Two bases or not, I'd say it appears clear that TOEI went back on at least some of the world-building pertaining to the original movies.

[Kishido]

The wole power scala makes no sense in Super... Same for this Sayiyan Beyond God form by heroes.

They are flip flopping the power level stuff of the bases left and right

[Tectorman]

eh at least they explained he has never tried to get better and Goku is pushing him to his potential. Merged Zamasu was a hand wave

I find the U6 Hit fight and the first Goku vs Zamasu fight being the biggest supports for the two-base theory.

In the anime*, Hit is explicitly stated to not be powering up. He improves the duration of his time skip but everything else he has going for him (speed, strength, durability, the quality of the attacks he's allowed to use under the tournament rules) stays the same throughout the whole fight. And he shows the same ability to contend with Goku regardless of what form Goku's in (something-that-looks-like-Base, SSB, SSBKK). I really don't know how to view that fight as anything other than "Base approximate to SSB approximate to SSBKKx10", short of ignoring it outright.

But later, Goku's SSJ2 is explicitly "several dozens of times" stronger than his Base. And later in that same arc, we know that SSJ3 is still significantly above SSJ2, and SSB is above SSJ3.

I really don't know what to conclude from that other than:

1) Goku has two SSBs, one barely above his Base (as shown in the Hit fight) and the other way above everything else (based on the later material).

2) Goku has one Base and one SSB and he just decided to transform into a SSB against Hit and then suppress its power to barely above Base for some unknowable reason. Same thing for him wrecking his body to go up to Kaioken x10 while, again, suppressing that power down to barely above what he had before. Again, why?

Or 3) Goku has two Bases, one significantly below SSB (as shown by the later material) and the other almost at SSB (as shown by the Hit fight and in keeping with the movies and the end of the BoG fight in Super).

Needless to say, I find 3) to be the most plausible, but maybe someone else finds 1) or 2) more plausible. And if there's another way to reconcile those two scenes, I'd love to hear it.

Because it'll probably come up:
[spoiler]"But if he has Saiyan beyond God at his disposal, then why bother with the lesser forms when he can be just as powerful by suppressing down from SbG?"

We got the answer to that in RoF. RoF showed that fighters fighting lesser opponents with their power suppressed to their opponents' level do become fatigued. So if Goku were to fight as a suppressed SbG, he would likewise face eventual fatigue. An unknown but non-trivial drain. And we know that SSJ2 and SSJ3 have their own drain (again, unknown but non-trivial). So it's really just a case of "six of one, half a dozen of the other". He'll face some manner of fatigue no matter what so we might as well chalk it up to a coin flip.[/spoiler]

*[spoiler]I'm only keeping up with the manga as it's translated in English, but so far as I've seen, because Goku never takes SSJG's power into any of his other forms (unlike the movies and the anime) and because Hit actually does power up during his fight with Goku, the two-base theory is unnecessary in the manga.[/spoiler]

you didn't really dispute the facts just ignored them. the two base theory can't work.

Okay, but not using the two-base theory likewise does not work for the reasons I illustrated unless you're likewise picking things to ignore.

SSB is way above Base. SSB is not way above Base. Both of those are true, so we need some way of reconciling them. You don't have to like my method, but I have yet to hear anything more satisfactory (general "you" there).

[ryan s]

[/quote] Super is a mess, i don't know what to say, i just wanted to show through statements and events from the show it can't work. it's not that your points are bad it's just Supers writing.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

We know for a fact that Goku is some kind of prodigy compared to past Super Saiyan God users as evidenced by Beerus being so surprised that it didn't run out when he thought it did. This is because Goku "made the power his own", but my current theory is that this does NOT mean Goku kept all of that power after the fight. It just means he kept it longer than he should have (when he went Super Saiyan), gradually lost it (which the entire purpose of the ki-leaking Whis training was to stop), and showed the capacity to reach that level again by non-ritual means. Also, remember when Goku went Super Saiyan Red one final time at the end of the BoG fight? What's the point of that if regular SSG1 now held all of SSJG's power? I think that proves that Base/SSJ1 Goku at least doesn't have all of it, and that puts his lesser forms in a huge guessing range that other characters could conceivably catch up to.

Most of the dissonance between the anime and manga is that anime Goku did something long-term with the ritual that manga Goku didn't. If you lessen the impact of what that thing was, they're a lot more reconcilable (like the SSG form actually doing something for Goku that Base doesn't), and the incredible feats of Base Goku and Vegeta afterwards can just be explained by time or training the same way Buu and Gohan's are. (And we can say that Vegeta was also a prodigy in harnessing God power if it keeps Whis's training from being totally broken.)