Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Desassina]

I have a few tiers based on multipliers for the Boo saga and Movie 13. I would like you to check their increases, based on your own sense of it, and not on claims by Toei.

Boo saga

Super Vegetto - 2'000
Ultimate Gohan - 800
SSJ3 Gotenks - 640
SSJ3 Goku - 400
SSJ2 Vegeta - 100

Movie 13

M12 Gogeta - 2'000
SSJ3 Goku - 1'600
SSJ3 Gotenks - 1'280
Ultimate Gohan - 800
SSJ2 Vegeta - 400

So, I included the top fighters in both lists, who are Gogeta and Vegetto. Goku and Vegeta would have increased their power 4 times, while Gotenks would have doubled it, but Gohan remains the same due to his base power with SSJ not having surpassed Ultimate yet. If you measure their performance against Boo and Hirudegarn, then perhaps you'll see that the gaps are fine, but trust me that they couldn't be bigger without bloating the explanation.

[Bullza]

So I've been trying to put together my power list since I began rereading the series last September. Just gonna post the power levels for original Dragon Ball. I have my own formula to it (God I'm so nerdy) which sort of works.

It completely ignores any power levels given outside of the manga itself. Piccolo being at 260 for example seems contradictory.

[spoiler]Emperor Pilaf saga

Goku – 75 
Oozaru Goku – 750 

Yamcha – 68 
Krillin – 66 

Tournament Saga

Goku – 106 
Oozaru Goku – 1,060 

Jackie Chun – 106 
Krillin – 96 
Yamcha – 89 

Namu – 98 
Giran – 95 
Ranfan – 88 
Bacterian – 85 

Red Ribbon Army Saga

Goku – 112 
Goku (Post Korin Training) – 136 
Krillin – 100 

Major Metallitron – 104 
Android 8 – 124 
General Blue – 100 
Mercenary Tao – 125 
Staff Officer Black (Battle Jacket) – 120 

Fortuneteller Baba Saga

Goku – 136 
Krillin – 100 
Yamcha – 94 

Grandpa Gohan – 130 
Devil man – 120 
Bandages – 104 
Invisible Man – 84 
Fangs – 78 

Tien Shinhan Saga

Goku (Tournament Power) – 150 
Goku (Battle Power) – 165 
Jackie Chun – 139 
Krillin – 136 
Yamcha – 128 

Tien – 165 
Chiaotzu – 128 
Master Shen – 120 

King Piccolo Saga

Goku – 165 
Goku (Post Water) – 205 
Tien – 165 
Yajirobe – 142 

King Piccolo (Old) – 182 
King Piccolo – 205 
Drum – 182 
Tambourine – 150 
Cymbal - 130 

Kami – 290
Mr Popo – 264

Piccolo Jr Saga

Goku – 378 
Kami – 290
Tien – 236
Krillin – 194
Yamcha – 167

Piccolo Jr – 360 
Mercenary Tao – 195[/spoiler]

Feel free to pick it apart so I can correct anything.

[LightBing]

So I've been trying to put together my power list since I began rereading the series last September. Just gonna post the power levels for original Dragon Ball. I have my own formula to it (God I'm so nerdy) which sort of works.

It completely ignores any power levels given outside of the manga itself. Piccolo being at 260 for example seems contradictory.

[spoiler]Emperor Pilaf saga

Goku – 75
Oozaru Goku – 750

Yamcha – 68
Krillin – 66

Tournament Saga

Goku – 106
Oozaru Goku – 1,060

Jackie Chun – 106
Krillin – 96
Yamcha – 89

Namu – 98
Giran – 95
Ranfan – 88
Bacterian – 85

Red Ribbon Army Saga

Goku – 112
Goku (Post Korin Training) – 136
Krillin – 100

Major Metallitron – 104
Android 8 – 124
General Blue – 100
Mercenary Tao – 125
Staff Officer Black (Battle Jacket) – 120

Fortuneteller Baba Saga

Goku – 136
Krillin – 100
Yamcha – 94

Grandpa Gohan – 130
Devil man – 120
Bandages – 104
Invisible Man – 84
Fangs – 78

Tien Shinhan Saga

Goku (Tournament Power) – 150
Goku (Battle Power) – 165
Jackie Chun – 139
Krillin – 136
Yamcha – 128

Tien – 165
Chiaotzu – 128
Master Shen – 120

King Piccolo Saga

Goku – 165
Goku (Post Water) – 205
Tien – 165
Yajirobe – 142

King Piccolo (Old) – 182
King Piccolo – 205
Drum – 182
Tambourine – 150
Cymbal - 130

Kami – 290
Mr Popo – 264

Piccolo Jr Saga

Goku – 378
Kami – 290
Tien – 236
Krillin – 194
Yamcha – 167

Piccolo Jr – 360
Mercenary Tao – 195[/spoiler]

Feel free to pick it apart so I can correct anything.

Why start so high? What's your reasoning? I have trouble wrapping my head around that. Do you ignore the 5 figure for the farmer given when power levels were introduced?

You have Bacterian and Ranfan far too high. Do you really think they are stronger than Goku of the previous arc?

[VegetaSSJBlue]

MULTIPLIERS

Oozaru – 10x
Super Saiyan – 50x
Super Saiyan Grade 2 – 75x
Super Saiyan Grade 3 – 100x
Super Saiyan 2 – 100x
Super Saiyan 3 – 200x


Raditz Arc


[spoiler]Son Gohan – 1
Enraged – 1,307

Son Goku – 416
Piccolo – 408
Tenshinhan – 250
Kuririn – 206
Yamcha – 177
Chaozu – 150
Yajirobe – 145
Muten Roshi – 139

Kaio of the North – 5,000
Enma Daio – 2,500
Kami of Earth – 325
Mr. Popo – 275

Raditz – 1,200
Oozaru – 12,000[/spoiler]


Saiyan Arc


[spoiler]Son Goku – 8,000
Kaio-Ken x2 – 16,000
Kaio-Ken x3 – 24,000
Kaio-Ken x4 – 32,000

Son Gohan – 1,200
Enraged – 2,800
Oozaru – 12,000

Piccolo – 2,500
Tenshinhan – 1,800
Kuririn – 1,500
Yamcha – 1,300
Chaozu – 1,000
Yajirobe – 800

Saibaimen – 1,200

Nappa – 7,500
Oozaru – 75,000

Vegeta – 18,000
Oozaru – 180,000[/spoiler]


Namek Arc


[spoiler]Son Goku – 90,000
Kaio-Ken x2 – 180,000
Kaio-Ken x10 – 900,000

Vegeta – 24,000
Post-recovery – 30,000
Post-recovery 2 – 50,000

Son Gohan – 1,500
Power Unlocked – 12,500
Post-recovery – 30,000

Kuririn – 1,500
Power Unlocked – 12,000

Dende – 250
Power Unlocked – 1,000

Muri – 1,500
Young Namekians – 3,000
Nail – 42,000

Freeza Soldiers – 1,250
Kwi – 18,000
Dodoria – 20,000

Zarbon – 22,000
Transformed – 30,000

Gurd – 1,000
Recoome – 40,000
Butta – 40,000
Jheese – 40,000
Captain Ginyu – 120,000

Freeza – 530,000[/spoiler]


Freeza Arc


[spoiler]Son Goku – 2,000,000
Kaio-Ken x10 – 20,000,000
Kaio-Ken x20 – 40,000,000
Super Saiyan – 100,000,000

Vegeta – 500,000
Post-recovery – 1,700,000

Son Gohan – 100,000
Enraged – 750,000
Post-recovery – 400,000
Enraged – 1,500,000

Piccolo – 120,000
Merged with Nail – 1,200,000

Kuririn – 12,000

Freeza – 530,000
Second Form – 800,000
Power-Up 1 – 900,000
Power-Up 2 – 1,050,000
Third Form – 1,575,000
True Form – 2,100,000
50% Power – 45,000,000
70% Power – 63,000,000
100% Power – 90,000,000[/spoiler]


Mecha Freeza Arc


[spoiler]Son Goku – 2,200,000
Super Saiyan – 110,000,000

Trunks – 2,100,000
Super Saiyan – 105,000,000

Vegeta – 1,850,000
Piccolo – 1,500,000
Son Gohan – 400,000
Tenshinhan – 15,000
Kuririn – 12,500
Yamcha – 10,000
Chaozu – 5,000

Freeza Soldiers – 1,250
King Cold – 85,000,000
Mecha Freeza – 95,000,000[/spoiler]


Future Arc I


[spoiler]Future Gohan – 2,000,000
Super Saiyan – 100,000,000

Kid Trunks – 40,000
Super Saiyan – 2,000,000

Future Android 18 – 170,000,000
Future Android 17 – 180,000,000[/spoiler]


Artificial Human Arc


[spoiler]Vegeta – 2,800,000
Super Saiyan – 140,000,000

Son Goku – 2,700,000
Super Saiyan – 135,000,000

Trunks – 2,400,000
Super Saiyan – 120,000,000

Piccolo – 100,000,000
Gohan – 2,000,000
Tenshinhan – 18,000
Kuririn – 15,000
Yamcha – 12,000
Chaozu – 6,000

Android 19 – 50,000,000
Post-absorption – 75,000,000

Android 20 – 60,000,000
Post-absorption – 80,000,000

Android 18 – 170,000,000
Android 17 – 180,000,000
Android 16 – 210,000,000

Cell – 150,000,000[/spoiler]


Cell Arc


[spoiler]Vegeta – 5,000,000
Super Saiyan – 250,000,000
Super Saiyan Grade 2 – 375,000,000
Super Saiyan Grade 3 – 500,000,000

Trunks – 4,800,000
Super Saiyan – 240,000,000
Super Saiyan Grade 2 – 360,000,000
Super Saiyan Grade 3 – 480,000,000

Piccolo – 180,000,000

Android 18 – 170,000,000
Android 17 – 180,000,000
Android 16 – 210,000,000

Cell – 210,000,000
Second Form – 250,000,000
Full Power – 300,000,000
Perfect Form – 350,000,000
Power Up – 450,000,000
Bulked Up – 550,000,000[/spoiler]


Cell Games Arc


[spoiler]Son Gohan – 24,000,000
Super Saiyan – 1,200,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 2,400,000,000
Injured – 1,100,000,000

Son Goku – 20,000,000
Super Saiyan – 1,000,000,000

Vegeta – 15,000,000
Super Saiyan – 750,000,000

Trunks – 15,000,000
Super Saiyan – 750,000,000

Piccolo – 600,000,000
Android 16 – 210,000,000

Cell Juniors – 750,000,000

Perfect Cell – 1,050,000,000
Full Speed – 1,200,000,000
Full Power – 1,500,000,000
Bulked Up – 1,800,000,000
"Super Perfect" – 2,000,000,000[/spoiler]


Future Arc II


[spoiler]Trunks – 15,000,000
Super Saiyan – 750,000,000
3 Years Later – 17,000,000
Super Saiyan – 850,000,000

Future Android 18 – 170,000,000
Future Android 17 – 180,000,000
Cell – 210,000,000[/spoiler]


Buu Arc


[spoiler]Son Goku – 25,000,000
Super Saiyan – 1,250,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 2,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 – 5,000,000,000

Vegeta – 22,000,000
Super Saiyan – 1,100,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 2,200,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 [Majin boost] – 2,500,000,000

Son Gohan – 20,000,000
Super Saiyan – 1,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 2,000,000,000
Ultimate – 15,000,000,000

Son Goten – 10,000,000
Super Saiyan – 500,000,000
Post-RoSaT – 12,000,000
Super Saiyan – 600,000,000

Trunks – 10,500,000
Super Saiyan – 525,000,000
Post-RoSaT – 12,000,000
Super Saiyan – 600,000,000

Gotenks – 100,000,000
Super Saiyan – 5,000,000,000
Post-RoSaT – 120,000,000
Super Saiyan – 6,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 – 12,000,000,000

Vegetto – 1,000,000,000
Super Saiyan – 50,000,000,000

Piccolo – 750,000,000

Kibito – 1,000,000
Kaioshin of the East - 950,000,000
Merged – 4,000,000,000

Pui Pui – 10,000
Yakon – 30,000,000
Dabra – 1,600,000,000

Pure Boo – 5,000,000,000
Buff Boo – 11,000,000,000
Majin Boo – 4,500,000,000
Evil Boo – 2,500,000,000
Good Boo – 2,000,000,000
Super Boo – 10,000,000,000
+ Piccolo – 10,750,000,000
+ Gotenks – 22,000,000,000
+ Son Gohan – 25,000,000,000[/spoiler]


28th Tenkaichi Budokai Arc


[spoiler]Son Goku – 30,000,000
Super Saiyan – 1,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 3,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 – 6,000,000,000

Vegeta – 28,000,000
Super Saiyan – 1,400,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 2,800,000,000

Son Goten – 15,000,000
Super Saiyan – 750,000,000

Trunks – 15,000,000
Super Saiyan – 750,000,000

Son Gohan – 15,000,000,000
Mister Boo– 2,000,000,000
Piccolo – 900,000,000
Oob – 25,000,000
Pan – 500,000[/spoiler]

[Kamiccolo9]

blah

Could you please stop posting your lists 4-5 times a page? Or if you must, just spoiler the whole thing.

[Noah]

Spoiler:

Zen Exhibition Match

Goku - 250,000,000
SSJ - 12,500,000,000

Gohan - 30,000,000
Base (Ultimate power) - 3,000,000,000
SSJ (Ultimate power) - 6,000,000,000

Majin Buu - 6,000,000,000

Basil - 2,000,000,000
Power-Up - 4,000,000,000

Lavenda - 3,000,000,0000

Good list, I like your numbers!

Could you please stop posting your lists 4-5 times a page? Or if you must, just spoiler the whole thing.

Yea, I was about to say that, it is getting pretty annoying.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So I've been trying to put together my power list since I began rereading the series last September. Just gonna post the power levels for original Dragon Ball. I have my own formula to it (God I'm so nerdy) which sort of works.

It completely ignores any power levels given outside of the manga itself. Piccolo being at 260 for example seems contradictory.

[spoiler]Emperor Pilaf saga

Goku – 75 
Oozaru Goku – 750 

Yamcha – 68 
Krillin – 66 

Tournament Saga

Goku – 106 
Oozaru Goku – 1,060 

Jackie Chun – 106 
Krillin – 96 
Yamcha – 89 

Namu – 98 
Giran – 95 
Ranfan – 88 
Bacterian – 85 

Red Ribbon Army Saga

Goku – 112 
Goku (Post Korin Training) – 136 
Krillin – 100 

Major Metallitron – 104 
Android 8 – 124 
General Blue – 100 
Mercenary Tao – 125 
Staff Officer Black (Battle Jacket) – 120 

Fortuneteller Baba Saga

Goku – 136 
Krillin – 100 
Yamcha – 94 

Grandpa Gohan – 130 
Devil man – 120 
Bandages – 104 
Invisible Man – 84 
Fangs – 78 

Tien Shinhan Saga

Goku (Tournament Power) – 150 
Goku (Battle Power) – 165 
Jackie Chun – 139 
Krillin – 136 
Yamcha – 128 

Tien – 165 
Chiaotzu – 128 
Master Shen – 120 

King Piccolo Saga

Goku – 165 
Goku (Post Water) – 205 
Tien – 165 
Yajirobe – 142 

King Piccolo (Old) – 182 
King Piccolo – 205 
Drum – 182 
Tambourine – 150 
Cymbal - 130 

Kami – 290
Mr Popo – 264

Piccolo Jr Saga

Goku – 378 
Kami – 290
Tien – 236
Krillin – 194
Yamcha – 167

Piccolo Jr – 360 
Mercenary Tao – 195[/spoiler]

Feel free to pick it apart so I can correct anything.

-I think some numbers like Goku, Yamcha and Krillin at BoS are too high, same with Bacterian and Ranfam.
-Goku was stronger than Roshi on the 21st Budokai, Roshi had to trick to have the edge.
-Mummy Man was stated by Roshi to be stronger than Pre Karin Goku.
-Krillin stated Yamcha was equal to him on the 22nd Budokai.
-Roshi give Tenshinhan trouble after he take of his shirt, and Tenshinhan has no mention to use more power against Goku. I think Roshi's line when he saw Match Level Goku was about Goku's potential and how he was going to be outclassed on the future.
-Yajirobe should be higher, Goku thought he was one of Piccolo's henchmen and had no reason to hold back against him.
-I'd put Old Piccolo a bit higher, considering how he effortlessy crushed Goku.
-Krillin and Yamcha should be > Cyborg Tao, they were seeing Tenshinhan's movements while Tao wasn't. Krillin could already be on 206, while Yamcha chould be >= 177, he could have rusted during the timeskip.

[Bullza]

Why start so high? What's your reasoning? I have trouble wrapping my head around that. Do you ignore the 5 figure for the farmer given when power levels were introduced?

Is it really that high though? I could easily lower it but how low could they really be? I don't ignore the power level of 5 for the farmer which is really why they'd be so high.

If the average fat guy has a power level of 5 then what should Yamcha's be considering he can smack someone through several layers of rock?

You have Bacterian and Ranfan far too high. Do you really think they are stronger than Goku of the previous arc?

Hmmm I'm not sure. Roshi thought that Goku and Krillin required training before they were able to compete in the Tournament and Bacterian and Ranfan were finalists. Ranfan was able to hurt Namu with her strenght. The same Name who didn't collapse after being hit by Goku.

Mummy Man was stated by Roshi to be stronger than Pre Karin Goku.

That's true (sort of) so good point there.

Krillin stated Yamcha was equal to him on the 22nd Budokai.

I don't remember anything like that ever being said. Can you point out where that was stated?

Yajirobe should be higher, Goku thought he was one of Piccolo's henchmen and had no reason to hold back against him.

Well I could make him a little higher. I just had him a tad below Goku at his "Tournament level". I could put up to about 150 perhaps. He seemed like he didn't want any of Goku after he saw his fight Tambourine.

Krillin and Yamcha should be > Cyborg Tao, they were seeing Tenshinhan's movements while Tao wasn't.

Yeah again another good point. Maybe he should be down in the 160ish range.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Why start so high? What's your reasoning? I have trouble wrapping my head around that. Do you ignore the 5 figure for the farmer given when power levels were introduced?

Is it really that high though? I could easily lower it but how low could they really be? I don't ignore the power level of 5 for the farmer which is really why they'd be so high.

If the average fat guy has a power level of 5 then what should Yamcha's be considering he can smack someone through several layers of rock?

It's extremely high. I'm guessing the reason you have them so high is because you view power levels as linear, in that case they should already be into the thousands by the 22nd Budokai.

You have Goku at 15x the average human when he struggles a little lifting 1 ton overhead, takes minor damage from low caliber guns, is incapable of surviving a shotgun blast to the face point blank & takes 8.5 seconds to run 100m, yet Tao who can easily throw a pillar 2,300 km at over 10x the speed of sound isn't even 2x that Goku? There's also the fact that he completely tanks Goku's Kamehameha with only clothing damage and almost oneshots him.

And Karin tells Goku that his power has become many times greater from the training, and this is shown to be true since Goku experiences huge improvement before he even completes 1 day of the training. He originally takes almost a whole day to climb up the first time, but after just a few hours at most he's able to make a round trip in just 3 hours, showing that his speed has become far greater. He then goes through 2 more days of the training which would increase his abilities even further.

So I'll ask you your own question. If Goku's top speed is only ~50 km/h and he can't lift much more than ~2 tons and he has a power level of 75, 15x the average human, what should his Post-Kame Sennin training self be who can push a multi-hundred ton boulder & move even faster than Kuririn who can completely disappear from human sight and have an elaborate fight in less than 0.2s? What should Tao be who completely eclipses this Goku, and easily throws a 3 ton pillar 2,300 km at several times the speed of sound while BoDB Goku has a hard time even lifting half that?

Krillin stated Yamcha was equal to him on the 22nd Budokai.

I don't remember anything like that ever being said. Can you point out where that was stated?

It's after Tenshinhan beats Yamcha.


Context: after Kame-sennin explains how Goku and Kuririn have gained power surpassing the ordinary
Kuririn: “But…Yamcha lost, and he was about as good as me. And even I had a really tough fight against that runt [Chaozu].”
Kame-sennin: “There’s no helping that. It’s because your opponents [Tenshinhan and Chaozu] were also super masters who have surpassed the ordinary.”

[Bullza]

It's extremely high. I'm guessing the reason you have them so high is because you view power levels as linear, in that case they should already be into the thousands by the 22nd Budokai.

The opposite actually, it was a way of shrinking growth. To me it wouldn't make sense that Goku would be at 10 at the start of the series but then be about ten times stronger after training with Roshi for several months (a lot go with Goku being around 100) but then he'd only get about three to four times as strong after everything else that happened in the series.

There's a few mentions of characters getting several times stronger and that doesn't work with power levels so I ignore it.

So I tried to make any gains appear more proportional. If I have Goku's power level increasing 25% after drinking the Sacred Water then it wouldn't seem right to have Goku's power level triple or quadruple just from training with Roshi.

That said I will have to lower it some now after being told about Bandages the mummy.

It's after Tenshinhan beats Yamcha.

Oh yeah I see but I'd say 128 was about as strong as 136. Krillin was significantly stronger than Yamcha at the 21st Tournament and at the start of Z so did Yamcha close the gap in the middle of Dragon Ball before falling behind again?

[LightBing]

Is it really that high though? I could easily lower it but how low could they really be? I don't ignore the power level of 5 for the farmer which is really why they'd be so high.

If the average fat guy has a power level of 5 then what should Yamcha's be considering he can smack someone through several layers of rock?

A power level of 10, for example, doesn't mean that it's twice as strong as 5. In Dragon Ball power levels don't work like that. Instead a 7 would trounce a 5 with little difficulty bar special skills/circumstances.

I did this analysis some time ago, based on actual numbers from the manga:

[spoiler]Raditz (12xx, said so by Nappa) vs Goku (416) and Piccolo (408) Gap 66%

Raditz owns them both at the same time, there's no dispute that in a head-to-head fight this power difference is more than enough for dominance. I highlight that Goku and Piccolo had the advantage of ki-sensing/modification, besides the surprise factor.
Piccolo would never have been able to hit with his Makankosappo alone and he failed the first time with Goku's help.

Part 1: Goku (8.000) vs Vegeta (18.000) Gap 56%

This is rather short but we see Goku turned into a punching bag, just no chance at all. Another case of dominance.

Part 2: Kaioken x2 Goku (16.000) vs Vegeta (18.000) Gap 12%

This super short, what we see is Goku partially dodging Vegeta's attack. Which indicates that this wouldn't be a one way beat down. However, it appears Goku still wouldn't have any chance of victory in a head-to-head confrontation.

Part 3: Kaioken x3 Goku (24.000) vs Vegeta (18.000) Gap 25%

Vegeta gets dominated. He tries to fight back, failing to hit Goku. This is very one-sided.

Vegeta (24.000) vs Kiwi (18.000) Gap 25%

A panicked and fleeing Kiwi is easily killed by Vegeta. The difference between this fight and the previous gap 25% fight are three factors: Kiwi mental state in here does him harm, he's already a defeated man; Vegeta's toughness to resist Goku onslaught; Goku's suffering the stress of the Kaioken.
I would say there's consistency between both fight's, if we take into account the details and not simply raw power. The result would be the same, the impact changes due to the details.

Nail (42.000) vs First Form Freeza (530.000) Gap 93%
Overkill...

Conclusion: At the very least 25% power advantage is enough to own, even with other factors like toughness, mental state and ki-sensing/modifying advantages. Vegeta is one of the biggest tanks in the series, that wouldn't stop him from losing to Kaioken x3 Goku.
I should note that if you let yourself get hit by a Genki Dama or allow Piccolo to charge his Makankosappo for an hour, you're gonna lose. Special techniques can cover any gap, what I'm discussing is a head-to-head type of confrontation.

Based on other fight's that we can kinda guess the characters power level, I theorize that a gap of 10/15% can be overcome by skill, intelligence, toughness, team work, etc...
10% or less and we should have an entertaining and even fight.[/spoiler]

I think you overshot by a lot based on the above. I think Goku should be somewhere between 8-12 at the start of the series. Which would completely change your list.

Something I do regarding the "many times" statements is to take them as a large increase and not mathematical information. The characters don't think in power levels terms and the author certainly didn't at this point of the story.
The only exception to this are specific statements, the biggest example being Piccolo Daimo less than half line. There's a reason for this, in this case Mr.Toriyama wants to quantify specifically the threat and he does this a lot!
Like Freeza's 50% and Goku showing half his power before the Cell Games.
I think we should take this into account when making the power levels because half is always half. Even if the characters aren't talking about power levels, "half" is Universal contrary to the "many times".

[Bullza]

I think you overshot by a lot based on the above. I think Goku should be somewhere between 8-12 at the start of the series. Which would completely change your list

Well that's the the general idea that I went with. I have all of the power levels under the formula of

.05x advantage - Not really much in it.
.125x advantage - Enough to have a clear advantage
.25x advantage - That's gonna be an easy win
.35x advantage - Enough to win in just attack

I had to shrink that gap for the original Dragon Ball to get it to work though but it follows the same general idea. I just went backwards from Tien's power level of 250.

And like I said in another post I wanted to make the training boosts at least somewhat consistent. O didn't want to make Goku get 10x stronger training with Roshi but then only get 50% step get after he drank the sacred water and unlocked his superhuman potential.

The only exception to this are specific statements, the biggest example being Piccolo Daimo less than half line.

I see what you mean because I do have half 50% Frieza as having half the power level of 100% Frieza. Same with Goku. Yet I didn't do that for Piccolo Daimao which would be contradictory on my part.

But that would be problematic to do. Tien was at 250 and he was a good chunk stronger than King Piccolo. So the Old King Piccolo at half strenght would likely not even be at 100. Roshi would be considerably below that but they said he has a power level of 139.

Roshi stopped training and if anything would have lost power. Do we really think he could have beaten the Piccolo who beat Goku so easily?

Tien doesn't even have twice the power level of Roshi so I don't know how I could get Old King Piccolo being twice as strong as 50% Old King Piccolo to work.

[LightBing]

And like I said in another post I wanted to make the training boosts at least somewhat consistent. O didn't want to make Goku get 10x stronger training with Roshi but then only get 50% step get after he drank the sacred water and unlocked his superhuman potential.

They aren't really consistent, it's usually as the plot demands. I find it logical that training with Roshi wields a massive increase. It's was the first dip into "Super-human level".
It's better to make power levels without bias or rules.

I see what you mean because I do have half 50% Frieza as having half the power level of 100% Frieza. Same with Goku. Yet I didn't do that for Piccolo Daimao which would be contradictory on my part.

But that would be problematic to do. Tien was at 250 and he was a good chunk stronger than King Piccolo. So the Old King Piccolo at half strenght would likely not even be at 100. Roshi would be considerably below that but they said he has a power level of 139.

Roshi stopped training and if anything would have lost power. Do we really think he could have beaten the Piccolo who beat Goku so easily?

Tien doesn't even have twice the power level of Roshi so I don't know how I could get Old King Piccolo being twice as strong as 50% Old King Piccolo to work.

Master Roshi didn't necessary stop training and new material somewhat supports this idea. The only thing he said was that he was passing the torch to the new generation. I don't have him at 139 during the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai.

These are the numbers from my last list (about 1 year ago):

Piccolo Daimao
- Old – 180
- First fight with Goku - 85
- Young – 225

Goku
- 70 (22nd TB)
- Hungry – 35
- Post Choushinsui – 220

Jackie Chun
- 65 (22nd TB)

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Krillin stated Yamcha was equal to him on the 22nd Budokai.

I don't remember anything like that ever being said. Can you point out where that was stated?

It's after Tenshinhan beats Yamcha.


Context: after Kame-sennin explains how Goku and Kuririn have gained power surpassing the ordinary
Kuririn: “But…Yamcha lost, and he was about as good as me. And even I had a really tough fight against that runt [Chaozu].”
Kame-sennin: “There’s no helping that. It’s because your opponents [Tenshinhan and Chaozu] were also super masters who have surpassed the ordinary.”

Actually that was after Goku beat Pamput.

The only exception to this are specific statements, the biggest example being Piccolo Daimo less than half line..

Out of curiosity, when was that stated? I searched on my manga and anime clips and couldn't found any mention of that.

[Bullza]

It's better to make power levels without bias or rules.

Well you've gotta go by something, especially when making power levels with the original series. The only "official" figures are the contradictory ones that have King Piccolo as being stronger than Tien. There ain't exactly much to go on.

Master Roshi didn't necessary stop training and new material somewhat supports this idea.

I dunno those numbers would seem weird to me. That someone who has been alive for like 300 years, trained with Mutaito, trained with Korin for 3 years and trained for the 22nd Budokai would only be at 65 but then more than doubled his power by Z when we was shown to do nothing.

He didn't even take part in the last Tournament because he said he wouldn't stand a chance against them no more and that includes Chiaotzu.

I also wonder if maybe you have Roshi too close to Goku there considering he couldn't even see Goku move when he fought Krillin and that was when he wasn't using his Battle power either.

Out of curiosity, when was that stated?

Chapter 143.

[LightBing]

Well you've gotta go by something, especially when making power levels with the original series. The only "official" figures are the contradictory ones that have King Piccolo as being stronger than Tien. There ain't exactly much to go on.

I'm talking about you wanting to make the training boosts consistent, by making up this rule you limit yourself from the get go.

I dunno those numbers would seem weird to me. That someone who has been alive for like 300 years, trained with Mutaito, trained with Korin for 3 years and trained for the 22nd Budokai would only be at 65 but then more than doubled his power by Z when we was shown to do nothing.

He didn't even take part in the last Tournament because he said he wouldn't stand a chance against them no more and that includes Chiaotzu.

I also wonder if maybe you have Roshi too close to Goku there considering he couldn't even see Goku move when he fought Krillin and that was when he wasn't using his Battle power either.

You're putting too much weight into stuff like doubling. The higher the scale you get the bigger the increases, number-wise. Goku went from 4xx to 5000 when his previous increase was something like 2xx to 3xx.

This is my explanation for Master Roshi's progression until now, obviously this is just my theory:
[spoiler]First Appearance and 21st Tenkaichi Budokai
- 25

He was retired before training Goku and Kuririn. Contrary to the 22nd TB, he didn't mention any training for the 21st TB so it's safe to assume he didn't train and was expecting to beat Goku with his current power.

22nd Tenkaichi Budokai
- 65

He said he trained for this tournament. During his fight with Tenshinhan it's implied he's not that far below him in the following quotes:
Chapter: 123, P13.4
Tenshinhan: “This geezer is absolutely unbelievable. I don’t know who he is, but his power goes above even Lord Tsuru-sennin…!”

Chapter: 124, P14.5-6
Tsuru-sennin: “He just didn’t want to get pitifully defeated fighting head-to-head! What a coward!”
Tenshinhan: “No…He still hadn’t put out his full power…”

Chapter: 125, P6.6
Context: Speaking to Tenshinhan.
Kame-sennin: “One thing might be just as you said though…I might really have lost even if we had continued fighting like that.”


23rd Tenkaichi Budokai
- 90

Moderate progression but he has been surpassed by Kuririn, Yamcha and Chiaotzu.

Raditz Attack
- 139

I believe he progressed by helping Kuririn, who's much stronger, train and by simply keeping up in shape. He's still lagging behind everybody else but him passing the torch to the next generation doesn't mean he actually retired from training.

FnF
- 500 - 1500

He handles some weaklings in the Freeza army.[/spoiler]

I should note that Mr.Toriyama said Master Roshi could get as strong as he did in FnF if he "felt like it". Which kinda corroborates my theory of his continuous progression.

[dragonball0900]

I don't know, but I will just ignore Old Daimao's statement of "less than half of his strenght", it's because of Roshi's 139. Let's be honest, there's no statement that proves that Roshi has been training after the 22nd Budokai. He pretty much said he was letting the younger ones to surpass him.

Also, even though I know the official numbers contradict a lot (like the 260 number of King Piccolo), there are numbers like Tsuru's that have 120-130, and Chi Chi's 130 (for those who underrate Chi Chi, I believe on this number of her since she was able to surprise Roshi in the 23rd Budokai, and was even called a master by him) that prove that Roshi's 139 is not that inaccurate for the 22nd Budokai. I think he trained casually, just a bit, but not enough to being able to increase his strenght.

I have a list of power levels at least for the 22nd Budokai and up. And I have the gap between Old King Piccolo and Goku similar to how the gap between Monster Zarbon and Vegeta was, since both battles did end quite similar. A character toys with the other until is nearly dead. I'll post it here soon.

[Blackstripe]

Piccolo Daimao
- Young – 225

Goku
- Post Choushinsui – 220

Huh? You put Ultra Holy Water Gokuu beneath Young Piccolo Daimao? The Piccolo that was getting pushed back pretty much the entire fight and had to resort to tricks? I mean, he managed to cripple one of Gokuu's legs, and STILL got his ass beat. He had to take Tien hostage to truly turn things around.

[TheUltimateNinja]

It's extremely high. I'm guessing the reason you have them so high is because you view power levels as linear, in that case they should already be into the thousands by the 22nd Budokai.

The opposite actually, it was a way of shrinking growth. To me it wouldn't make sense that Goku would be at 10 at the start of the series but then be about ten times stronger after training with Roshi for several months (a lot go with Goku being around 100) but then he'd only get about three to four times as strong after everything else that happened in the series.

There's a few mentions of characters getting several times stronger and that doesn't work with power levels so I ignore it.

So I tried to make any gains appear more proportional. If I have Goku's power level increasing 25% after drinking the Sacred Water then it wouldn't seem right to have Goku's power level triple or quadruple just from training with Roshi.

That said I will have to lower it some now after being told about Bandages the mummy.

There's no need to have Goku at 100 at the 21st Budokai, I personally place him around 20. It makes more sense that way since the gap between BoDB Goku and the average human is way smaller than the gap between Goku and Tao.

[Bullza]

I don't know, but I will just ignore Old Daimao's statement of "less than half of his strenght", it's because of Roshi's 139. Let's be honest, there's no statement that proves that Roshi has been training after the 22nd Budokai. He pretty much said he was letting the younger ones to surpass him.

Yeah it would seem to come down to an opinion on whether Roshi trained or not and got significantly stronger in order to make it work. The Daizenshuu did have Roshi at 139 and showed an image of him during the 22nd Budokai which could indicate he didn't train I don't know.

I think I'll probably ignore it for now like the Daizenshuu seems too otherwise I'd have to redo it all and I'd only have problems with it then for different reasons.