I find Goku to be the worst character in this show

[Ki Breaker]

Seriously people are jumping the gun, nothing has been destroyed yet, NOTHING has happened yet! just claims that have yet to be done, hell if Goku acts giggly when a universe or someone dies then I wont just admit I'm wrong for standing up for Goku all this time, I'll even join your cause on making him look the ultimate most horrible SoB that ever existed in shonen main character history.

He ain't gonna act giggly, even super won't do that, remember when champa was actually gonna kill uni6 he was angry and would have taken him on as well

[SansrivaaL]

Seriously people are jumping the gun, nothing has been destroyed yet, NOTHING has happened yet! just claims that have yet to be done, hell if Goku acts giggly when a universe or someone dies then I wont just admit I'm wrong for standing up for Goku all this time, I'll even join your cause on making him look the ultimate most horrible SoB that ever existed in shonen main character history.

He ain't gonna act giggly, even super won't do that, remember when champa was actually gonna kill uni6 he was angry and would have taken him on as well

Considering they're calling Goku out as a sociopath/psychotic, they're kinda implying that Goku wont be fazed at all when a universe or someone dies, which is dead wrong, thats why I'm saying they're jumping the gun too much.
Goku normally acts and shows seriousness when something already happened, not about something that could happen.

[HybridSaiyan]

I just think Goku's character has been regressed, i think Toei are heading in the wrong direction with his character after his buu saga portrayal. How can he go from wanting others to take his place and being a mentor figure to someone now battle obsessed and giving no shits?

[Ki Breaker]

I just think Goku's character has been regressed, i think Toei are heading in the wrong direction with his character after his buu saga portrayal. How can he go from wanting others to take his place and being a mentor figure to someone now battle obsessed and giving no shits?

Maybe because he isn't the strongest one around anymore, he needs to be that before assuming a passive role..
but that's just me trying make sense outta some of his actions

[Lujin_16]

I just think Goku's character has been regressed, i think Toei are heading in the wrong direction with his character after his buu saga portrayal. How can he go from wanting others to take his place and being a mentor figure to someone now battle obsessed and giving no shits?

Maybe because he isn't the strongest one around anymore, he needs to be that before assuming a passive role..
but that's just me trying make sense outta some of his actions

I think you are right Ki Breaker it makes sense that he has changed because there are so many strong fighters

[MathSSJ]

I just think Goku's character has been regressed, i think Toei are heading in the wrong direction with his character after his buu saga portrayal. How can he go from wanting others to take his place and being a mentor figure to someone now battle obsessed and giving no shits?

More like he went on from passing the responsibility of dealing with shit to others so he can focus on doing whatever the hell he wants.

Goku's intentions at the end of the Cell Arc are far more about he enjoying training and fighting strong people in the afterlife then that keeping earth safe.

[TheMikado]

I just think Goku's character has been regressed, i think Toei are heading in the wrong direction with his character after his buu saga portrayal. How can he go from wanting others to take his place and being a mentor figure to someone now battle obsessed and giving no shits?

Maybe because he isn't the strongest one around anymore, he needs to be that before assuming a passive role..
but that's just me trying make sense outta some of his actions

I think you are right Ki Breaker it makes sense that he has changed because there are so many strong fighters

That makes no sense when Goku willingly stepped down from the Cell fight to let Gohan go because Cell was stronger than him. Proving yet again he wasn't obsessed with fighting. How do you reconcile that Goku with this Goku?

[Ki Breaker]

Maybe because he isn't the strongest one around anymore, he needs to be that before assuming a passive role..
but that's just me trying make sense outta some of his actions

I think you are right Ki Breaker it makes sense that he has changed because there are so many strong fighters

That makes no sense when Goku willing stepped down from the Cell fight to let Gohan go because Cell was stronger than him. How do you reconcile that Goku with this Goku?

He figured gohan us worthy of taking his place, who will do that now? Who is he gonna be the mentor to? Nobody seems to care anymore..
That's why he was happy to teach uub, who was both worthy and interested

[TheMikado]

I think you are right Ki Breaker it makes sense that he has changed because there are so many strong fighters

That makes no sense when Goku willing stepped down from the Cell fight to let Gohan go because Cell was stronger than him. How do you reconcile that Goku with this Goku?

He figured gohan us worthy of taking his place, who will do that now? Who is he gonna be the mentor to? Nobody seems to care anymore..
That's why he was happy to teach uub, who was both worthy and interested

That wasn't the point of the argument. People are arguing that Goku can't seem to help but be battle crazed because a stronger opponent is around. But for whatever reason he didn't exhibit that same trait during the Cell saga.
If it's because Gohan was stronger why wouldn't that push Goku to get even stronger and train harder? It's weird because that arc seemed to imply Goku had learned value in quiet simple life, not training excessively, and spending the time he has with his family. He then dies, mostly due to a stupid decision he made to give Cell and senzu and ends up sacrificing himself to save everyone from his stupid mistake.

Fast forward to Super and Goku's skipping his friend of almost his entire life birthday party, with all his other family and friends to do some general training on King Kai's planet that he could have absolutely done at any time.

[SansrivaaL]

That makes no sense when Goku willing stepped down from the Cell fight to let Gohan go because Cell was stronger than him. How do you reconcile that Goku with this Goku?

He figured gohan us worthy of taking his place, who will do that now? Who is he gonna be the mentor to? Nobody seems to care anymore..
That's why he was happy to teach uub, who was both worthy and interested

That wasn't the point of the argument. People are arguing that Goku can't seem to help but be battle crazed because a stronger opponent is around. But for whatever reason he didn't exhibit that same trait during the Cell saga.
If it's because Gohan was stronger why wouldn't that push Goku to get even stronger and train harder? It's weird because that arc seemed to imply Goku had learned value in quiet simple life, not training excessively, and spending the time he has with his family. He then dies, mostly due to a stupid decision he made to give Cell and senzu and ends up sacrificing himself to save everyone from his stupid mistake.

Fast forward to Super and Goku's skipping his friend of almost his entire life birthday party, with all his other family and friends to do some general training on King Kai's planet that he could have absolutely done at any time.

I guess people really do have different takes on the cell arc Goku, as for me the reason why he was ok with Gohan finishing off Cell was because he didnt like the idea of him being the one to save them, he doesnt like that responsibility being pushed at him because he was never a fan of taking lives which in this case he see's Cell as someone who should die, so he then pushed the responsibility to Gohan. As for the reason why Goku wasnt battle crazed, is because he already planned on fighting Cell first, he got what he wanted, a fight with Cell, Goku doesnt like losing but he sure as hell doesnt mind it if his enemy is stronger than him, he accepts defeat like a champ.

[TheMikado]

He figured gohan us worthy of taking his place, who will do that now? Who is he gonna be the mentor to? Nobody seems to care anymore..
That's why he was happy to teach uub, who was both worthy and interested

That wasn't the point of the argument. People are arguing that Goku can't seem to help but be battle crazed because a stronger opponent is around. But for whatever reason he didn't exhibit that same trait during the Cell saga.
If it's because Gohan was stronger why wouldn't that push Goku to get even stronger and train harder? It's weird because that arc seemed to imply Goku had learned value in quiet simple life, not training excessively, and spending the time he has with his family. He then dies, mostly due to a stupid decision he made to give Cell and senzu and ends up sacrificing himself to save everyone from his stupid mistake.

Fast forward to Super and Goku's skipping his friend of almost his entire life birthday party, with all his other family and friends to do some general training on King Kai's planet that he could have absolutely done at any time.

I guess people really do have different takes on the cell arc Goku, as for me the reason why he was ok with Gohan finishing off Cell was because he didnt like the idea of him being the one to save them, he doesnt like that responsibility being pushed at him because he was never a fan of taking lives which in this case he see's Cell as someone who should die, so he then pushed the responsibility to Gohan. As for the reason why Goku wasnt battle crazed, is because he already planned on fighting Cell first, he got what he wanted, a fight with Cell, Goku doesnt like losing but he sure as hell doesnt mind it if his enemy is stronger than him, he accepts defeat like a champ.

That's the strangest interpretation of Goku I've ever read, mostly because there's no precedence for any of the scenarios you just stated. Pushing the fate of the world onto his adolescent son because he does want the responsiblity or getting his hands dirty is a Krillin trait.. not a Goku trait.

[SansrivaaL]

That wasn't the point of the argument. People are arguing that Goku can't seem to help but be battle crazed because a stronger opponent is around. But for whatever reason he didn't exhibit that same trait during the Cell saga.
If it's because Gohan was stronger why wouldn't that push Goku to get even stronger and train harder? It's weird because that arc seemed to imply Goku had learned value in quiet simple life, not training excessively, and spending the time he has with his family. He then dies, mostly due to a stupid decision he made to give Cell and senzu and ends up sacrificing himself to save everyone from his stupid mistake.

Fast forward to Super and Goku's skipping his friend of almost his entire life birthday party, with all his other family and friends to do some general training on King Kai's planet that he could have absolutely done at any time.

I guess people really do have different takes on the cell arc Goku, as for me the reason why he was ok with Gohan finishing off Cell was because he didnt like the idea of him being the one to save them, he doesnt like that responsibility being pushed at him because he was never a fan of taking lives which in this case he see's Cell as someone who should die, so he then pushed the responsibility to Gohan. As for the reason why Goku wasnt battle crazed, is because he already planned on fighting Cell first, he got what he wanted, a fight with Cell, Goku doesnt like losing but he sure as hell doesnt mind it if his enemy is stronger than him, he accepts defeat like a champ.

That's the strangest interpretation of Goku I've ever read, mostly because there's no precedence for any of the scenarios you just stated. Pushing the fate of the world onto his adolescent son because he does want the responsiblity or getting his hands dirty is a Krillin trait.. not a Goku trait.

You see it like that because you want to see Goku in a good light which he is not, he's a warrior before anything else. We are talking about someone who pushed the fate of the universe into 2 little kids doing fusion rather than himself since he could have killed fat Boo at SSJ3 but decided not to.
And thats basically it, thats why when Piccolo talked him out of it he realized it was sort of wrong, he should be the one doing it not his son, but before coming into that realization, thats what I took him for.

[Asura]

MasakoX released a fantastic 14-minute video yesterday about Goku, analyzing him from the fallout of Episode 81, and if he's truly become "evil".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA1ADQFwZb0

I highly recommend watching but if not, here's a TL:DW summary:

Masako feels as if Goku's writing has been incredibly inconsistent in Super and Toei has done a terrible job with exaggerating his faults and personality traits to unbelieveable levels. We saw it beginning with U6 arc, and it got way worse in Future Trunks arc with how stupid and forgetful, and overly simple and one-dimensional Goku was. Masako now blames Goku's current character once again on bad Toei writing. He makes the argument (which I 100% agree with and think that people who make the "Goku has always been this way!" argument should listen to this video) that Goku has indeed always had these character traits of selfishness, and not necessarily being the "hero", but being a guy who just likes to fight who also does good things. However, Masako argues that this situation is way different. This is on a universal level. Goku is being told he's going to be responsible for the death of the innocent lives of 7 whole universes, yet doesn't even react towards that. It's another example of Goku's character faults being pushed to ridiculous levels, and another example of his flaws being grossly exaggerated.

In conclusion, he doesn't think Goku is evil at this time, but thinks that next episode with Toppo should provide a whole lot of insight into the discussion.

Personally I'm beginning to subscribe to the wide-spread theory that Goku is just rusing everyone, has a secret deal with Zeno to make it seem like all the universes will be destroyed so Goku can fight people at their fullest, and he knows nothing will actually happen to the universes which is why he doesn't give a shit about people blaming him and calling him evil.

It would be the only logical theory at this point that can explain why Goku is acting the way he is (outside of some corruption element). I still think it's a rather stupid ruse on the audience and doesn't really serve much of a point, but I'm hoping that it's the explanation we get, cause otherwise I dunno what the deal is with Goku.

That wasn't the point of the argument. People are arguing that Goku can't seem to help but be battle crazed because a stronger opponent is around. But for whatever reason he didn't exhibit that same trait during the Cell saga.
If it's because Gohan was stronger why wouldn't that push Goku to get even stronger and train harder? It's weird because that arc seemed to imply Goku had learned value in quiet simple life, not training excessively, and spending the time he has with his family. He then dies, mostly due to a stupid decision he made to give Cell and senzu and ends up sacrificing himself to save everyone from his stupid mistake.

Fast forward to Super and Goku's skipping his friend of almost his entire life birthday party, with all his other family and friends to do some general training on King Kai's planet that he could have absolutely done at any time.

I guess people really do have different takes on the cell arc Goku, as for me the reason why he was ok with Gohan finishing off Cell was because he didnt like the idea of him being the one to save them, he doesnt like that responsibility being pushed at him because he was never a fan of taking lives which in this case he see's Cell as someone who should die, so he then pushed the responsibility to Gohan. As for the reason why Goku wasnt battle crazed, is because he already planned on fighting Cell first, he got what he wanted, a fight with Cell, Goku doesnt like losing but he sure as hell doesnt mind it if his enemy is stronger than him, he accepts defeat like a champ.

That's the strangest interpretation of Goku I've ever read, mostly because there's no precedence for any of the scenarios you just stated. Pushing the fate of the world onto his adolescent son because he does want the responsiblity or getting his hands dirty is a Krillin trait.. not a Goku trait.

I have to agree. Sorry SansrivaaL, but there really is almost no evidence or precedence for what you just said. It all may as well be head-canon, because nothing of what you said was ever brought up during the Cell arc.

[TheMikado]

MasakoX released a fantastic 14-minute video yesterday about Goku, analyzing him from the fallout of Episode 81, and if he's truly become "evil".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA1ADQFwZb0

I highly recommend watching but if not, here's a TL:DW summary:

Masako feels as if Goku's writing has been incredibly inconsistent in Super and Toei has done a terrible job with exaggerating his faults and personality traits to unbelieveable levels. We saw it beginning with U6 arc, and it got way worse in Future Trunks arc with how stupid and forgetful, and overly simple and one-dimensional Goku was. Masako now blames Goku's current character once again on bad Toei writing. He makes the argument (which I 100% agree with and think that people who make the "Goku has always been this way!" argument should listen to this video) that Goku has indeed always had these character traits of selfishness, and not necessarily being the "hero", but being a guy who just likes to fight who also does good things. However, Masako argues that this situation is way different. This is on a universal level. Goku is being told he's going to be responsible for the death of the innocent lives of 7 whole universes, yet doesn't even react towards that. It's another example of Goku's character faults being pushed to ridiculous levels, and another example of his flaws being grossly exaggerated.

In conclusion, he doesn't think Goku is evil at this time, but thinks that next episode with Toppo should provide a whole lot of insight into the discussion.

Personally I'm beginning to subscribe to the wide-spread theory that Goku is just rusing everyone, has a secret deal with Zeno to make it seem like all the universes will be destroyed so Goku can fight people at their fullest, and he knows nothing will actually happen to the universes which is why he doesn't give a shit about people blaming him and calling him evil.

It would be the only logical theory at this point that can explain why Goku is acting the way he is (outside of some corruption element). I still think it's a rather stupid ruse on the audience and doesn't really serve much of a point, but I'm hoping that it's the explanation we get, cause otherwise I dunno what the deal is with Goku.

I guess people really do have different takes on the cell arc Goku, as for me the reason why he was ok with Gohan finishing off Cell was because he didnt like the idea of him being the one to save them, he doesnt like that responsibility being pushed at him because he was never a fan of taking lives which in this case he see's Cell as someone who should die, so he then pushed the responsibility to Gohan. As for the reason why Goku wasnt battle crazed, is because he already planned on fighting Cell first, he got what he wanted, a fight with Cell, Goku doesnt like losing but he sure as hell doesnt mind it if his enemy is stronger than him, he accepts defeat like a champ.

That's the strangest interpretation of Goku I've ever read, mostly because there's no precedence for any of the scenarios you just stated. Pushing the fate of the world onto his adolescent son because he does want the responsiblity or getting his hands dirty is a Krillin trait.. not a Goku trait.

I have to agree. Sorry SansrivaaL, but there really is almost no evidence or precedence for what you just said. It all may as well be head-canon, because nothing of what you said was ever brought up during the Cell arc.

He makes the argument (which I 100% agree with and think that people who make the "Goku has always been this way!" argument should listen to this video) that Goku has indeed always had these character traits of selfishness, and not necessarily being the "hero", but being a guy who just likes to fight who also does good things. However, Masako argues that this situation is way different. This is on a universal level. Goku is being told he's going to be responsible for the death of the innocent lives of 7 whole universes, yet doesn't even react towards that. It's another example of Goku's character faults being pushed to ridiculous levels, and another example of his flaws being grossly exaggerated.

Thank God Almighty someone else gets it! Goku is being written like someone who doesn't actually understand the character and his history and it feels like some writers were handed a script with some notions and they wrote him exactly like the notations rather than in context with his previous adventures.

[Basako]

Thank God Almighty someone else gets it! Goku is being written like someone who doesn't actually understand the character and his history and it feels like some writers were handed a script with some notions and they wrote him exactly like the notations rather than in context with his previous adventures.

But, wait. How do you think Goku should have behaved in this arc?

I don't think it's off character him reminding Zeno about the tournament, the contrary. Maybe he should have followed Beerus's advice, but the thing is he didn't know Zeno would put that rule.

As Zeno is the one endangering lives, should he go against him? That doesn't work with Zeno. He is not a villain, he is the omnigod. If he wants to destroy universes, he will, in fact, he was going to do it anyway. Same as Beerus destroys planets.

I could see him more concerned about the danger, although is not something he can do anything about, so he accepts it and moves on. The only thing he can do is fight, well, the thing he likes most. I don't agree at all that he is a villain, he is just a guy excited about fighting strong opponents, as he has always been. Bergamo's speech was to make him look like a villain, to make the rest of the universes go against Goku, but that doesn't make him one.

[Ki Breaker]

That makes no sense when Goku willing stepped down from the Cell fight to let Gohan go because Cell was stronger than him. How do you reconcile that Goku with this Goku?

He figured gohan us worthy of taking his place, who will do that now? Who is he gonna be the mentor to? Nobody seems to care anymore..
That's why he was happy to teach uub, who was both worthy and interested

That wasn't the point of the argument. People are arguing that Goku can't seem to help but be battle crazed because a stronger opponent is around. But for whatever reason he didn't exhibit that same trait during the Cell saga.
If it's because Gohan was stronger why wouldn't that push Goku to get even stronger and train harder? It's weird because that arc seemed to imply Goku had learned value in quiet simple life, not training excessively, and spending the time he has with his family. He then dies, mostly due to a stupid decision he made to give Cell and senzu and ends up sacrificing himself to save everyone from his stupid mistake.

Fast forward to Super and Goku's skipping his friend of almost his entire life birthday party, with all his other family and friends to do some general training on King Kai's planet that he could have absolutely done at any time.

Hey I am not defending Goku's character portrayal, far from it..
It's just me trying to make some sense out of it in universe

[TheMikado]

Thank God Almighty someone else gets it! Goku is being written like someone who doesn't actually understand the character and his history and it feels like some writers were handed a script with some notions and they wrote him exactly like the notations rather than in context with his previous adventures.

But, wait. How do you think Goku should have behaved in this arc?

I don't think it's off character him reminding Zeno about the tournament, the contrary. Maybe he should have followed Beerus's advice, but the thing is he didn't know Zeno would put that rule.

As Zeno is the one endangering lives, should he go against him? That doesn't work with Zeno. He is not a villain, he is the omnigod. If he wants to destroy universes, he will, in fact, he was going to do it anyway. Same as Beerus destroys planets.

I could see him more concerned about the danger, although is not something he can do anything about, so he accepts it and moves on. The only thing he can do is fight, well, the thing he likes most. I don't agree at all that he is a villain, he is just a guy excited about fighting strong opponents, as he has always been. Bergamo's speech was to make him look like a villain, to make the rest of the universes go against Goku, but that doesn't make him one.

The current arc appears that it is purposely trying to paint Goku as a villian so I cannot answer that question yet if that's the end goal intention.

However, if that was not the intention then it should have been a casual mistake on Goku's part. Beerus should have just asked Goku to not go see Zen'o again (not give any reason) and Goku should have said ok, I wouldn't want to get him mad. Then Zen'o should have came to see Goku on an unrelated matter and Goku casually mentions the tournament. Upon him realizing the implication of this he should have had that darkened scene they typically do when characters in DB reach an epiphany and having Goku resolve to win the tournament, get the dragonballs, and correct the mistake he's made. Notice it plays out almost exactly the same but with subtle differences which are more consistent with Goku's previous character.

[Asura]

Thank God Almighty someone else gets it! Goku is being written like someone who doesn't actually understand the character and his history and it feels like some writers were handed a script with some notions and they wrote him exactly like the notations rather than in context with his previous adventures.

But, wait. How do you think Goku should have behaved in this arc?

I don't think it's off character him reminding Zeno about the tournament, the contrary. Maybe he should have followed Beerus's advice, but the thing is he didn't know Zeno would put that rule.

As Zeno is the one endangering lives, should he go against him? That doesn't work with Zeno. He is not a villain, he is the omnigod. If he wants to destroy universes, he will, in fact, he was going to do it anyway. Same as Beerus destroys planets.

I could see him more concerned about the danger, although is not something he can do anything about, so he accepts it and moves on. The only thing he can do is fight, well, the thing he likes most. I don't agree at all that he is a villain, he is just a guy excited about fighting strong opponents, as he has always been. Bergamo's speech was to make him look like a villain, to make the rest of the universes go against Goku, but that doesn't make him one.

I have zero issues with Goku going to Zeno and asking for the tournament. You're right, he had no idea Zeno would put that rule in (at least, from what we know right now). However, I think he was a little bit out of character in his interaction with Beerus. He felt a little more "evil" than "naive" there. Nothing too terrible though.

My main complaint (If TOEI isn't doing this on purpose) is that Goku is behaving like a straight up asshole. You say that you could see him concerned about the danger, when exactly did you see that? Goku didn't say a damn thing or react at all when Bergamo asked Zeno about calling the tournament off if he won. After Goku won, he basically started shit-talking his opponent, which was incredibly odd and something Goku has never done. When all the universes started getting angry and yelling at Goku for spelling out their doom, Goku didn't seem particularly worried at all, and was literally like "Fuck all of you, BRING IT ON! BRING IT ON!"

The point is Goku doesn't even try to make himself NOT look like the villain. He straight up doesn't give a shit, and doesn't even deny it when Toppo calls him evil. At no point do you ever see Goku surprised, shocked, worried, anything when news about the universes are being erased. He had a dumb look on his face in episode 78 when the Grand Priest was telling everyone, but that was about it. He makes no effort to try and dispel the narrative of him being evil/a villain, and it's all very odd and out-of-character, although I believe it's being done on purpose.

[SansrivaaL]

Thank God Almighty someone else gets it! Goku is being written like someone who doesn't actually understand the character and his history and it feels like some writers were handed a script with some notions and they wrote him exactly like the notations rather than in context with his previous adventures.

But, wait. How do you think Goku should have behaved in this arc?

I don't think it's off character him reminding Zeno about the tournament, the contrary. Maybe he should have followed Beerus's advice, but the thing is he didn't know Zeno would put that rule.

As Zeno is the one endangering lives, should he go against him? That doesn't work with Zeno. He is not a villain, he is the omnigod. If he wants to destroy universes, he will, in fact, he was going to do it anyway. Same as Beerus destroys planets.

I could see him more concerned about the danger, although is not something he can do anything about, so he accepts it and moves on. The only thing he can do is fight, well, the thing he likes most. I don't agree at all that he is a villain, he is just a guy excited about fighting strong opponents, as he has always been. Bergamo's speech was to make him look like a villain, to make the rest of the universes go against Goku, but that doesn't make him one.

I can see where he's coming from tho, just 2 arcs ago Goku was about to jump in and stop Chanpa from killing his members, compared to the Goku now that doesnt give a fck anymore, and he knows fully well that the losers gets destroyed along with their universe, so the question is why is Goku being like this? does he not care if those fighters (basically his drug pills) gets destroyed? fighters that has the possibility to give him a better fight the next time they meet? surely Goku would have reacted more, he see's Zeno as a friend, he can at least try and talk sense to him despite Whis' warning, unless he's doing all of this for a reason (since obviously he's drawing heat to himself purposely so that they come at him at 100%) I feel people are pissed because Goku's being one dimensional on the matter, he's not showing any signs besides "I'm excited, come at me please?"

[TheMikado]

^ Just for clarity. I don't like this Goku and I think that's by design of the writers. I feel they could have been more subtle in their approach but it's obvious they couldn't because it would be hand waved away with the
"Goku has always been like this" nonsense. I firmly believe that are purposely doing this and unfortunately have to be this blatant because the fandom will go into denial..

Anyway, I'm interested to see what comes out of all this, but I don't expect fans of the way Goku previously acted to be happy about this either.