Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Only the appearence faded away. The power never went or changed whatsoever as was directly said by Goku himself. If then at that level of power Beerus can easily nullify his Kamehameha but then Goku was shown to power up and then Beerus could no longer nullify that Kamehameha then that's clear cut that his power grew after SSJG's time limit ran out.

Doesn't matter. Nothing about SSJG disappearing would indicate a power increase.

Ah but that's not what I'm getting at. Super Saiyan Goku and then Base Goku didn't surpass Super Saiyan God. They simply brought out more of Super Saiyan God's power as was happening throughout the whole fight.

SSJ Goku isn't stronger than SSJG Goku. SSJ Goku simply brought out even more of that power than he did when he was SSJG Goku. Base Goku brought out more power still. It is all Super Saiyan Gods power.

As was already said, Goku stated that brought out 100% of SSJG's power while he was a Super Saiyan God. No statement indicates that he powered up beyond the stated limit, so nah.

Nah it has to be over twice as strong. SSJG Goku fired a Kamehameha and Beerus fired a blast back of equal strenght and this created the super dense energy ball.

Being as the Kamehameha made up half of the energy balls power then the energy ball itself would obviously be twice as powerful as the Kamehameha and Beerus nullified it just fine. He couldn't nullify that final Kamehameha though so it has to be more powerful than the energy ball hence over twice as strong.

He said that he wouldn't be able to nullify the Kamehameha as easily, not that he was incapable of nullifying it so nah. Nothing implies that he couldn't nullify it. This doesn't even matter since the Kamehameha being over twice as strong wouldn't prove anything that you're trying to say in regards to SSJ Goku>SSJG Goku.

Exactly and going with what I said above, SSJ Goku's Kamehameha was more powerful than the super dense energy ball and that Kamehameha was met again with another blast of equal strenght to merge again and become this sun sphere. Which was made more powerful still when Beerus made it larger.

To put it simply and at minimum.

SSJG Goku's Kamehameha = 1
Beerus' counter attack = 1
Super dense energy ball = 2
SSJ Goku's Kamehameha = 2.1
Beerus' counter attack = 2.1
Sun looking blast = 4.2
Sun looking blast given additional power = 4.3

So yeah Base Goku smacked apart an energy blast that had over quadruple the amount of power behind it than SSJG Goku's lone Kamehameha. This was Super Saiyan Gods full power.

You can throw out arbitrary numbers out as much as you want, but nothing indicates that Goku's power increased throughout the sequence. Base Goku was weaker than SSJ Goku.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Something like this...

Goku ssjG -> God level

ssj Goku(Post God) -> God level

Base(Post God) -> God Level

Base (RoF) -> Super Buu level

Base (U6) -> Ultimate Gohan level

Base Goku(Potaufeu) -> (Anime)Base Vegito +

Base Goku(Current) -> 20 -> 30% of Mssj Vegito

I'd like to think this would fit with the current scaling, but then that would mean ssj Gohan now is Mssj Vegito level or higher..... this all depends on how seriously Goku fought Gohan... if it was just a spar and Goku just suppressed himself to fight evenly with Gohan... that could work.

I'd like to place Base even higher than Base Vegito during the Jelly Vegeta events... could Base Vegito(Anime) tank a kick from Gotenks to the neck without flinching???? I don't think even Buuhan would be able to do something like that, but maybe I'm wrong.

Welcome to the Kanzenshuu Board! We're not too aggressive when it comes to Dragon Ball discussions, I promise, haha.

Anyways, I could definitely see Buutenks or Buuhan taking a hit from SS3 Gotenks without flinching. They had a huge power jump from SS3 Gotenks. I also agree with where you put all the Base Gokus. I personally put Base Goku (Post God, but before RoF) at SS3 Goku (Buu Saga). It would be very odd to me that he would lose the SSGod power from Base and SS if he did have it in those forms. Obviously we know that this whole situation is a retcon, but in order to retain some consistency I try to exaggerate what happened. The story didn't explain if he dropped from God level in those forms. It would be hard to reason why he would go back down to Super Buu level. I just put him lower so he would train and move up:

DBZ and BoG Pre-SSG Absorption: Base Goku = 50% Frieza (Namek Saga)

BoG Post-SSG Absorption: Base Goku = SS3 Goku (Buu Saga)

RoF: Base Goku = Super Buu

U6: Base Goku = Ultimate Gohan (Buu Saga)

Future Trunks and Universe Survival: Base Goku = Base Vegito (Buu Saga)

[Triggered Vegeta]

Thanks, yeah I've been wanting to make an account for a while now.

When I reffered to Base Goku (Post God)... I should've been a bit more specific.
I meant to say Base Goku at the end of the fight, the one who still had the ssjG power who punched the Sun Energy sphere.

I'm glad Toei and Toyotaro are doing a good job in showing where Goku and Vegeta stand in terms of power in their Base and non godly transformations.

To be honest, the scaling actually flows a lot smoother this way as opposed to everybody stronger than Goku's base being hundreds of times the power of ssjG, which makes literally no sense.

[Bullza]

Doesn't matter. Nothing about SSJG disappearing would indicate a power increase.

It didn't increase just because SSJG's appearance disappeared. It was already said that his power went unchanged after he turned back. His power increased for the same reason it did when he was a SSJG. It just kept going up and up.

As was already said, Goku stated that brought out 100% of SSJG's power while he was a Super Saiyan God. No statement indicates that he powered up beyond the stated limit, so nah.

Yeah and what Goku said was probably true for the time. However it was made clear throughout that he kept surpassing his limits. Before this he fired a Kamehameha and when he was getting pushed back he asked if this was his limit but then next thing you know he came out with even more power and said mentioned how the Super Saiyan God's power was telling him to go higher. This happened more than once.

Since Goku made that comment about being at 100% he turned back into a Super Saiyan and yet his limits just kept increasing as was shown. Even at the end Beerus was talking about how he surely had to be at his limits by now and he still wasn't.

He said that he wouldn't be able to nullify the Kamehameha as easily, not that he was incapable of nullifying it so nah.

Wouldn't make a scrap of difference. He easily nullified the previous Kamehameha from SSJ Goku when he was at a comparable level to what he was at moments before as a SSJG. He appeared to easily nullify the super dense energy ball as well but purposefully chose not to with that final Kamehameha, instead choosing to counter it with a matching blast.

Base Goku was weaker than SSJ Goku.

Of which nothing indicated that either. There's no such thing as God Essence. Goku went from being unable to see Beerus' punches when he first started fighting him to being able to destroy an attack with drastically more power behind it than any attack that SSJG Goku came out with and it was all became of Super Saiyan God's power increasing throughout the fight.

[Bullza]

Just spent the last hour or so going through the Resurrection F saga to find anything that could indicate that Goku was no longer at God level in Base and....no there isn't.

Infact it's almost surely the complete opposite, the Base Goku that fought Frieza was even stronger than he was at any point when he fought Beerus and there's a few things that point towards that.

One thing that's been brought up by people is "If they said it was SSJB which surpassed SSJG then it doesn't make sense for that to be said if Base Goku already surpassed SSJG". It's actually fine though because Base Goku didn't surpass SSJG's power, he has that power, he was so strong because he still had that God power inside him.

The line here

"This is a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan

Would mean that when he's not Blue he has the power of Super Saiyan God. Base Goku is just a stronger version of Super Saiyan God then he was back when he fought Beerus because he trained it up.

This all made sense up until Super Saiyan was reintroduced something Toei possibly didn't expect to be brought back. That messed it all up completely for a few reasons. That is the root of all of the problems and confusion.

[TheMikado]

Just as an aside, the Funimation Super dub kept the 10% Beerus/Rageta line. Not sure if that makes it official or not, but it at least means Toei gave no directions to change or retcon the line.

[Triggered Vegeta]

Well that line could be true. Beerus used 10% to k.o Vegeta... which was complete overkill.

Beerus also mentions he needed 100% at the end of the fight with Goku, but later states it was a lie.

He most likely said this to motivate Goku, to get him to access more of the ssjG power.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well that line could be true. Beerus used 10% to k.o Vegeta... which was complete overkill.

It's still likely that Angry Saiyan 2 Vegeta was at least a few percent as strong as Beerus; why would he go 10% if 1% would do?

[ekrolo2]

Well that line could be true. Beerus used 10% to k.o Vegeta... which was complete overkill.

It's still likely that Angry Saiyan 2 Vegeta was at least a few percent as strong as Beerus; why would he go 10% if 1% would do?

And thus the root of all these issues comes from, that and KK.

[Doctor.]

My random scale for the universal survival arc exhibition match.

Mr. Boo - 140
(Fat Boo - 350, for reference)

Son Goku - 1.6
-- Super Saiyan: 80
(Super Saiyan Goku, in the Boo arc - 50, for reference)
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 700,000
------ Kaioken: 1,400,000
(Beerus - 10,000,000, for reference)

Son Gohan - 1.4 (there's an argument to be made about whether or not he's in his Ultimate state, but seeing as how he can still stack Super Saiyan on top of his base form, I'm gonna say no. If he really is in his Ultimate state, then fuck Toei.)
-- Super Saiyan: 70
----- poisoned: 40

Basil - 40
-- powered-up: 120

Lavenda - 35

Bergamo - 50
-- Goku's power: 70

How did Gohan block Lavenda's hits in base if he was struggling with Super Saiyan? How did Bergamo manage to stop SSBx2 Goku's Kamehameha when he was struggling with SS Goku? Why did they portray Basil as the weakest when he should be the strongest when you add up the numbers? I don't know.

Fuck this show.

[ekrolo2]

Son Gohan - 1.4 (there's an argument to be made about whether or not he's in his Ultimate state, but seeing as how he can still stack Super Saiyan on top of his base form, I'm gonna say no. If he really is in his Ultimate state, then fuck Toei.)

You should fuck Toei because he is. In Resurrection F the arc he doesn't have the full outlines around his eyes yet he's clearly above Piccolo in Base but now he's got fully outlined eyes all the time whether he's a Super Saiyan or not.

So yeah, unless the show is doing some halfway BS where Gohan has 50% access to Ultimate in Base but needs SS to get the other 50, Toei has fucked up.

[Doctor.]

Son Gohan - 1.4 (there's an argument to be made about whether or not he's in his Ultimate state, but seeing as how he can still stack Super Saiyan on top of his base form, I'm gonna say no. If he really is in his Ultimate state, then fuck Toei.)

You should fuck Toei because he is. In Resurrection F the arc he doesn't have the full outlines around his eyes yet he's clearly above Piccolo in Base but now he's got fully outlined eyes all the time whether he's a Super Saiyan or not.

So yeah, unless the show is doing some halfway BS where Gohan has 50% access to Ultimate in Base but needs SS to get the other 50, Toei has fucked up.

I'm gonna wait until the actual tournament and see if they see anything, or if he goes ultimate as his top transformation. If nothing of the sort happens, then I'll concede to Toei's stupidity.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

It didn't increase just because SSJG's appearance disappeared. It was already said that his power went unchanged after he turned back. His power increased for the same reason it did when he was a SSJG. It just kept going up and up.

Yeah and what Goku said was probably true for the time. However it was made clear throughout that he kept surpassing his limits. Before this he fired a Kamehameha and when he was getting pushed back he asked if this was his limit but then next thing you know he came out with even more power and said mentioned how the Super Saiyan God's power was telling him to go higher. This happened more than once.

Since Goku made that comment about being at 100% he turned back into a Super Saiyan and yet his limits just kept increasing as was shown. Even at the end Beerus was talking about how he surely had to be at his limits by now and he still wasn't.

Yeah, no. This is such a hard reach that I don't even know how anyone can come to this conclusion. You're assuming that as a Super Saiyan, Goku kept getting stronger beyond his stated 100%. That isn't stated or implied anywhere, period.

Goku was never implied to surpass any "limit", since he was never implied anywhere to get stronger past 100% of his stated SSJG power. He just wasn't at his current "limit" yet when Beerus made his statement. He sacrificed himself to stop the energy by punching and disrupting it's core. The same energy pushed Goku out of SSJ. If you want to claim that Goku magically became stronger when he was trying to stop the energy sphere, then you need evidence, but you haven't provided any.

Wouldn't make a scrap of difference. He easily nullified the previous Kamehameha from SSJ Goku when he was at a comparable level to what he was at moments before as a SSJG. He appeared to easily nullify the super dense energy ball as well but purposefully chose not to with that final Kamehameha, instead choosing to counter it with a matching blast.

The bold was already refuted so nah. That's besides the point though. The Kamehameha only has to be significantly stronger than SSJG Goku's, which again doesn't prove your point since SSJ Goku's Kamehameha had every ounce of his power in it. Even if SSJ Goku wasn't outputting anywhere near SSJG Goku's level of power, SSJ Goku's Kamehameha can still be stronger. Pulling random numbers out of nowhere doesn't constitute as evidence.

Of which nothing indicated that either. There's no such thing as God Essence. Goku went from being unable to see Beerus' punches when he first started fighting him to being able to destroy an attack with drastically more power behind it than any attack that SSJG Goku came out with and it was all became of Super Saiyan God's power increasing throughout the fight.

SSJ Goku wasn't using SSJG's God ki, so what else would he be using? And once again, you haven't posted any evidence of SSJ Goku's limits increasing constantly throughout the fight to a level close to a 100% power SSJG let alone beyond it. With that being the case, there isn't any reason why SSJG Goku couldn't stop the energy sphere.

Just spent the last hour or so going through the Resurrection F saga to find anything that could indicate that Goku was no longer at God level in Base and....no there isn't.

Infact it's almost surely the complete opposite, the Base Goku that fought Frieza was even stronger than he was at any point when he fought Beerus and there's a few things that point towards that.

No, he wasn't since he was only stated to be stronger than a Super Saiyan God when he went Blue.

One thing that's been brought up by people is "If they said it was SSJB which surpassed SSJG then it doesn't make sense for that to be said if Base Goku already surpassed SSJG". It's actually fine though because Base Goku didn't surpass SSJG's power, he has that power, he was so strong because he still had that God power inside him.

The line here

"This is a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan

Would mean that when he's not Blue he has the power of Super Saiyan God. Base Goku is just a stronger version of Super Saiyan God then he was back when he fought Beerus because he trained it up.

This all made sense up until Super Saiyan was reintroduced something Toei possibly didn't expect to be brought back. That messed it all up completely for a few reasons. That is the root of all of the problems and confusion.

There is no confusion. You're just misinterpreting it. Base Goku isn't comparable to SSJG, nor is he any version of Super Saiyan God since he has no god ki.
Super Saiyan Blue is Super Saiyan God(the form itself)+Super Saiyan and this was always very obvious.

It isn't "Base god Goku"(which doesn't exist)+Super Saiyan. Goku stated that he mastered Super Saiyan God(the form itself) and evolved it further.

[The gr]

My random scale for the universal survival arc exhibition match.

Mr. Boo - 140
(Fat Boo - 350, for reference)

Son Goku - 1.6
-- Super Saiyan: 80
(Super Saiyan Goku, in the Boo arc - 50, for reference)
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 700,000
------ Kaioken: 1,400,000
(Beerus - 10,000,000, for reference)

Son Gohan - 1.4 (there's an argument to be made about whether or not he's in his Ultimate state, but seeing as how he can still stack Super Saiyan on top of his base form, I'm gonna say no. If he really is in his Ultimate state, then fuck Toei.)
-- Super Saiyan: 70
----- poisoned: 40

Basil - 40
-- powered-up: 120

Lavenda - 35

Bergamo - 50
-- Goku's power: 70

How did Gohan block Lavenda's hits in base if he was struggling with Super Saiyan? How did Bergamo manage to stop SSBx2 Goku's Kamehameha when he was struggling with SS Goku? Why did they portray Basil as the weakest when he should be the strongest when you add up the numbers? I don't know.

Fuck this show.

I think Goku stated he didn't use his full power,so that's the reason he looked weak, and gohan was struggling because he was poisoned,was it ever stated basil was the weakest one

here's a speculation, Goku going Super Saiyan blue is just a toei thing and is not part of toriyama outline

[ChiefWamsutta]

The way Super Saiyan Blue is shown is weird. ... The show suggests that you have to have a very strong Base, potentially at god level in order to get it.


I really don't think that is how SSB is achieved. I think training your Super Saiyan form enough to harness ki control and calmness leads to turning into god ki. It makes sense why there is no Super Saiyan Blue 2 or Super Saiyan Blue 3. Super Saiyan Grade 4 is the only Super Saiyan form that has any sort of ki control and calmness. Goku and Vegeta used what they knew about that form and practiced it enough that their ki turned into blue god ki, unlocking a new form.

I think you can also achieve this form by being a Super Saiyan God and transforming into a Super Saiyan. (Like Black into Yellow and Red into Blue)

[ChiefWamsutta]

Taken from DBSuper Ep. 14, Crunchyroll Subs http://www.crunchyroll.com/dragon-ball- ... ion-723547

Yeah, there is absolutely no reference to Super Saiyan God strength here:

[spoiler]

















[/spoiler]

What is basically being said is this:
"I still have battery power, man. I'm not at 0% yet."

"Come at me then, bro. This clash will settle the fight."

"Oh, he has got more fight left than I thought."

[Bullza]

Yeah, no. This is such a hard reach that I don't even know how anyone can come to this conclusion. You're assuming that as a Super Saiyan, Goku kept getting stronger beyond his stated 100%. That isn't stated or implied anywhere, period.

I'm not assuming anything. You are saying that as a Super Saiyan he was weaker than he was as a Super Saiyan God, completely ignoring the fact that Goku said he did not get weaker. So any assumption that he was weaker is immediately wrong because of that line.

Goku was at 100% when he said that line but as it was said in the show Goku "time and time again broke through his limits". Those limits were shown to have increased further after that comment and even before it.

Goku was never implied to surpass any "limit"

The above comment in bold proves that wrong because they specifically said he did more than once.

The bold was already refuted so nah. The Kamehameha only has to be significantly stronger than SSJG Goku's, which again doesn't prove your point since SSJ Goku's Kamehameha had every ounce of his power in it.

Nothing was refuted, that line was said. He said he didn't get weaker so he didn't get weaker. Anything said that goes against that is automatically wrong. The Kamehameha that he produced was significantly stronger when he was a Super Saiyan as opposed to a Super Saiyan God therefore he was stronger as a Super Saiyan. The Kamehameha he fired as a Super Saiyan God was not held back either as Goku questioned if that was the limit of God's power.

SSJ Goku wasn't using SSJG's God ki, so what else would he be using? And once again, you haven't posted any evidence of SSJ Goku's limits increasing constantly throughout the fight to a level close to a 100% power SSJG let alone beyond it.

Super Saiyan Goku didn't have God Ki no but he still had the power of Super Saiyan God within him as was said by Beerus and as was said by Goku later in the Resurrection F saga. The evidence is again in the bolded comment above where they mentioned how Goku had time and again surpassed his limits. When Goku said he was using 100% of his power all that means is that he was using 100% of his power before he surpassed his limits yet again.

No, he wasn't since he was only stated to be stronger than a Super Saiyan God when he went Blue.

Which is absolutely correct because prior to that in his Base form he merely had the power of a Super Saiyan God as he said. Super Saiyan Blue surpassed this, Base Goku did not.

There is no confusion. You're just misinterpreting it. Base Goku isn't comparable to SSJG, nor is he any version of Super Saiyan God since he has no god ki.
Super Saiyan Blue is Super Saiyan God(the form itself)+Super Saiyan and this was always very obvious.

There's nothing to misinterpret. He says to Frieza "this is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". Beerus even said to Goku on his planet after he'd done all that training and before he was sent into the staff that he'd become much stronger and was prepared to fight him. God Ki has nothing to do with this, against Beerus he reverted back to Super Saiyan and he no longer had God Ki but his strength remained unchanged.

[Bullza]

It's all become very clear to me now what the actual problem with all these power levels is.

When Toei produced the Battle of Gods and Resurrection F saga's they, for obvious reasons, stayed accurate to the plot points of the movies that they were adapting and what Toriyama had said. In the Resurrection F movie he was this Saiyan Beyond God and was as strong as Super Saiyan God as this also made obvious.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Now when he turns Super Saiyan he was just supposed to become Blue.

Then it all went to shit because they brought back the original Super Saiyan forms. Obviously in the manga, almost surely in Toriyama's mind and what now appears to be in the anime as well these Super Saiyan forms were never supposed to be anywhere near as strong as Super Saiyan God.

This then made a huge problem for the anime because they had already made Goku out to be a Saiyan Beyond God. They never had Goku lose that power by the Universe 6 saga either which then made it seem as though Goku would be 50-400 times stronger than Super Saiyan God depending on the Super Saiyan form that he used. Something that is obviously not true but caused all the confusion on whether Piccolo or Trunks were God level and this whole two bases stuff.

So ideally from a power level point of view the correct order should be

Super Saiyan Blue Goku > Base Goku (vs Beerus/Frieza) = Super Saiyan God >>> Any time he used any Super Saiyan Form since then > Base Goku (Possibly as he is now they've corrected the problem)

That's what it should be but it makes zero sense from a story point of view. There is in fact two bases merely due to confusion.

[ekrolo2]

So ideally from a power level point of view the correct order should be

Super Saiyan Blue Goku > Base Goku (vs Beerus/Frieza) = Super Saiyan God >>> Any time he used any Super Saiyan Form since then > Base Goku (Possibly as he is now they've corrected the problem)

That's what it should be but it makes zero sense from a story point of view. There is in fact two bases merely due to confusion.

I'd say this lack of communication is also why we have the troublesome Hit situation in the manga where he's seemingly only on par with SS Goku. I doubt Toyotaro would have done it this way if he knew Toriyama wanted 2 and 3 back later on too.

[Hugo Boss]

So ideally from a power level point of view the correct order should be

Super Saiyan Blue Goku > Base Goku (vs Beerus/Frieza) = Super Saiyan God >>> Any time he used any Super Saiyan Form since then > Base Goku (Possibly as he is now they've corrected the problem)

That's what it should be but it makes zero sense from a story point of view. There is in fact two bases merely due to confusion.

I'd say this lack of communication is also why we have the troublesome Hit situation in the manga where he's seemingly only on par with SS Goku. I doubt Toyotaro would have done it this way if he knew Toriyama wanted 2 and 3 back later on too.

Was it Toriyama really? He said we would probably never see Super Saiyan 2 and 3 again, so it would be odd he requested such thing.