Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

So ideally from a power level point of view the correct order should be

Super Saiyan Blue Goku > Base Goku (vs Beerus/Frieza) = Super Saiyan God >>> Any time he used any Super Saiyan Form since then > Base Goku (Possibly as he is now they've corrected the problem)

That's what it should be but it makes zero sense from a story point of view. There is in fact two bases merely due to confusion.

I'd say this lack of communication is also why we have the troublesome Hit situation in the manga where he's seemingly only on par with SS Goku. I doubt Toyotaro would have done it this way if he knew Toriyama wanted 2 and 3 back later on too.

Was it Toriyama really? He said we would probably never see Super Saiyan 2 and 3 again, so it would be odd he requested such thing.

Toriyama's contradicted literally everything he said from the movies in Super. Plus, if he was really adamant about 2 and 3 staying gone, he would've told Toyotaro to cut them out of the manga but he doesn't.

[Bullza]

I'd assume it was Toriyama's decision to bring them back for sure. He likely changed his mind on Goku absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God either so he could bring the original Super Saiyan forms back or so Super Saiyan God could be used again or both.

And for some reason or other Toei went with the original interpretation in the movies which messed it all up moving forward.

[Triggered Vegeta]

I'd assume it was Toriyama's decision to bring them back for sure. He likely changed his mind on Goku absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God either so he could bring the original Super Saiyan forms back or so Super Saiyan God could be used again or both.

And for some reason or other Toei went with the original interpretation in the movies which messed it all up moving forward.

I believe Toriyama, Toei and Toyotaro decided to do this so that the scaling wouldn't be cancerous... not that they focus on that stuff, but they probably knew what would happen if they kept the scaling from the movies.

Can you imagine Goku(Current) being over 400× ssjG? That's absolutely ridiculous... If anything the "possible retcon" fixed many issues.

[ekrolo2]

I'd assume it was Toriyama's decision to bring them back for sure. He likely changed his mind on Goku absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God either so he could bring the original Super Saiyan forms back or so Super Saiyan God could be used again or both.

And for some reason or other Toei went with the original interpretation in the movies which messed it all up moving forward.

I believe Toriyama, Toei and Toyotaro decided to do this so that the scaling wouldn't be cancerous... not that they focus on that stuff, but they probably knew what would happen if they kept the scaling from the movies.

Can you imagine Goku(Current) being over 400× ssjG? That's absolutely ridiculous... If anything the "possible retcon" fixed many issues.

Dialing back Goku & Vegeta power wise works for a longer form story, the problem is nobody sat down and made this choice from the start, hence why the anime is totally broken in this respect and the manga has some glaring issues.

[TheMikado]

I'd assume it was Toriyama's decision to bring them back for sure. He likely changed his mind on Goku absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God either so he could bring the original Super Saiyan forms back or so Super Saiyan God could be used again or both.

And for some reason or other Toei went with the original interpretation in the movies which messed it all up moving forward.

I believe Toriyama, Toei and Toyotaro decided to do this so that the scaling wouldn't be cancerous... not that they focus on that stuff, but they probably knew what would happen if they kept the scaling from the movies.

Can you imagine Goku(Current) being over 400× ssjG? That's absolutely ridiculous... If anything the "possible retcon" fixed many issues.

Dialing back Goku & Vegeta power wise works for a longer form story, the problem is nobody sat down and made this choice from the start, hence why the anime is totally broken in this respect and the manga has some glaring issues.

I've been saying this since the Champa arc... Toriyama and Toei likely agreed that Toei would adapt the anime from his movies while he worked on the next arc. Toriyama, being an actual competent writer, realized you can't
really scale up story wise from universe destroying punches. Toriyama likely gave a thin outline that probably didn't make that point clear. By the time Toei realized what Toriyama intended episodes were likely already completed and ready to air so Toei decided to just roll with it for as long as they could without explaining anything. I remember adamant fights in this thread about how production schedules would never allow for something like that to happen! lol. I'm not saying this as confirmation of this but it just seems like the most likely answer to why things appear the way they do.

[Bullza]

so Toei decided to just roll with it for as long as they could without explaining anything

Yeah that's exactly what I think happened.

I don't know how much it's worth but the epispde where Goku absorbed the power of God came out at the start of October 2015 almost five months before the chapter where Super Saiyan returned which was at the end of February 2016.

So possibly they went with the original power scale. Later realised that this was not the intended power scale and figured "Well we've already said he absorbed the power so it's too late now" and just tried to keep it going until either this saga or the last one.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

I'm not assuming anything. You are saying that as a Super Saiyan he was weaker than he was as a Super Saiyan God, completely ignoring the fact that Goku said he did not get weaker. So any assumption that he was weaker is immediately wrong because of that line.

He said his power didn't get weaker, so all that means is that his power source didn't change from Super Saiyan God to a weaker source. Super Saiyan God's power=Super Saiyan God's power.
Beerus labeled his power as inadequate for someone whom possessed God's power as was already brought up countless times, so nope.

Goku was at 100% when he said that line but as it was said in the show Goku "time and time again broke through his limits". Those limits were shown to have increased further after that comment and even before it.

The above comment in bold proves that wrong because they specifically said he did more than once.

Never stated, so it's moot. For the last time, you're assuming that he constantly broke his limits. That's never stated anywhere and his final power increase as an SSJG is his last stated limit.

Nothing was refuted, that line was said. He said he didn't get weaker so he didn't get weaker. Anything said that goes against that is automatically wrong. The Kamehameha that he produced was significantly stronger when he was a Super Saiyan as opposed to a Super Saiyan God therefore he was stronger as a Super Saiyan. The Kamehameha he fired as a Super Saiyan God was not held back either as Goku questioned if that was the limit of God's power.

Already gave you the correct interpretation. Keep ignoring it if you want. That's just a concession.
Nothing SSJG Goku did was stated or implied to have every ounce of his ki in it. Not holding back on a Kamehameha isn't the same as charging a Kamehameha with every ounce of your power, so nah.
SSJ Goku isn't stronger than SSJG Goku.

Super Saiyan Goku didn't have God Ki no but he still had the power of Super Saiyan God within him as was said by Beerus and as was said by Goku later in the Resurrection F saga. The evidence is again in the bolded comment above where they mentioned how Goku had time and again surpassed his limits. When Goku said he was using 100% of his power all that means is that he was using 100% of his power before he surpassed his limits yet again.

I'm still waiting for the statement that shows that Goku kept surpassing his limits. SSJ Goku and Beerus' final exchange only implies that he hadn't reached his current limit, not that he exceeded all of his previous limits.

Which is absolutely correct because prior to that in his Base form he merely had the power of a Super Saiyan God as he said. Super Saiyan Blue surpassed this, Base Goku did not.

Base Goku was not stronger than a Super Saiyan God. Super Saiyan Blue Goku was. Super Saiyan Blue Goku>SSJG Goku>>>>>>>Base Goku.

There's nothing to misinterpret. He says to Frieza "this is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". Beerus even said to Goku on his planet after he'd done all that training and before he was sent into the staff that he'd become much stronger and was prepared to fight him. God Ki has nothing to do with this, against Beerus he reverted back to Super Saiyan and he no longer had God Ki but his strength remained unchanged.

Super Saiyan Blue is Super Saiyan God+Super Saiyan. It's a dual transformation. That is stated, not the ridiculous semantics you're trying to argue about Base Goku w/ gods power transforming into a Super Saiyan. If that was the case, then he would never be able to use the basic Super Saiyan.

[Bullza]

He said his power didn't get weaker, so all that means is that his power source didn't change from Super Saiyan God to a weaker source. Super Saiyan God's power=Super Saiyan God's power.

Yeah which is right. Going from Super Saiyan God to Super Saiyan his strength was at first the exact same but then as a Super Saiyan he continued to bring out more of Super Saiyan God's power as was shown after Goku powered up further at the very end.

Beerus labeled his power as inadequate for someone whom possessed God's power as was already brought up countless times, so nope.

Something he said while Goku was struggling to breathe under water and was on the verge of drowning. Beerus even had to drag him out of the ocean. It was also said moments before Beerus said

"Now this is the power of Super Saiyan God"

It's said right there he had the power of Super Saiyan God.

Never stated, so it's moot.

So the statement in Episode 13 when Beerus states

"Time and again, you surpassed your limits and got stronger"

Wasn't stated?

Already gave you the correct interpretation.

You gave me one interpretation that says one thing whilst two others say another thing. Neither matters because Beerus was shown to nullify the super dense energy ball and the one Kamehameha but didn't with the final one because it was more powerful.

If Goku is asking when using a Kamehameha if that's the limits of his power then he is putting out every last ounce of strenght or it wouldn't have been his limit and the question wouldn't have needed to be asked.

Base Goku was not stronger than a Super Saiyan God.

I know he's not. Base Goku is Super Saiyan God.

Super Saiyan Blue is Super Saiyan God+Super Saiyan. It's a dual transformation. That is stated

And again that's correct. Base Goku is Super Saiyan God therefore when he turns Super Saiyan he becomes Blue. As I pointed out Base Goku was for a fact as strong as Super Saiyan God in the original version (proof in the picture on the last page).

And you can't say "Well that was the movie, this is the anime and it's different" because it's not. The same explanation was given for it in the anime aswell.

Super Saiyan Blue is Goku as a Saiyan who'd absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God transforming into a Super Saiyan.

If that was the case, then he would never be able to use the basic Super Saiyan.

Which is exactly where the problem lies because he shouldn't be able to turn into the regular Super Saiyan. The manga version never had Goku absorb the power of Super Saiyan God which is why Goku can still turn into a Super Saiyan (and also God).

[Hugo Boss]

I'd say this lack of communication is also why we have the troublesome Hit situation in the manga where he's seemingly only on par with SS Goku. I doubt Toyotaro would have done it this way if he knew Toriyama wanted 2 and 3 back later on too.

Was it Toriyama really? He said we would probably never see Super Saiyan 2 and 3 again, so it would be odd he requested such thing.

Toriyama's contradicted literally everything he said from the movies in Super. Plus, if he was really adamant about 2 and 3 staying gone, he would've told Toyotaro to cut them out of the manga but he doesn't.

Do you mind providing a source for that? Not that I think you are lying, but from my perspective it seems very weird that Toriyama was the one who suggested it. In a interview or two, he said Goku wouldn't need to transform into Super Saiyan God again and he actually did on Super's manga. I can see Toyotaro or someone else bringing that up to him and he just says "this is good!". Either way, I think this is such a minor detail that he wouldn't care.

[ekrolo2]

Was it Toriyama really? He said we would probably never see Super Saiyan 2 and 3 again, so it would be odd he requested such thing.

Toriyama's contradicted literally everything he said from the movies in Super. Plus, if he was really adamant about 2 and 3 staying gone, he would've told Toyotaro to cut them out of the manga but he doesn't.

Do you mind providing a source for that? Not that I think you are lying, but from my perspective it seems very weird that Toriyama was the one who suggested it. In a interview or two, he said Goku wouldn't need to transform into Super Saiyan God again and he actually did on Super's manga. I can see Toyotaro or someone else bringing that up to him and he just says "this is good!". Either way, I think this is such a minor detail that he wouldn't care.

You only need to watch the anime or read the manga to see the source. Goku's not a 6 to Beerus' 10 anymore, the SS forms of old were seemingly abolished only for all of them to come back, SSGod was meant as a gateway to a more powerful form ala Golden Oozaru and now it's back too,...

Frankly if Toriyama came out and said Super Saiyan regular was gold you'd need to point a BFG at me to believe him, that's how little his statements matter in relation to what's actually presented in the story.

[Hugo Boss]

Toriyama's contradicted literally everything he said from the movies in Super. Plus, if he was really adamant about 2 and 3 staying gone, he would've told Toyotaro to cut them out of the manga but he doesn't.

Do you mind providing a source for that? Not that I think you are lying, but from my perspective it seems very weird that Toriyama was the one who suggested it. In a interview or two, he said Goku wouldn't need to transform into Super Saiyan God again and he actually did on Super's manga. I can see Toyotaro or someone else bringing that up to him and he just says "this is good!". Either way, I think this is such a minor detail that he wouldn't care.

You only need to watch the anime or read the manga to see the source. Goku's not a 6 to Beerus' 10 anymore, the SS forms of old were seemingly abolished only for all of them to come back, SSGod was meant as a gateway to a more powerful form ala Golden Oozaru and now it's back too,...

Frankly if Toriyama came out and said Super Saiyan regular was gold you'd need to point a BFG at me to believe him, that's how little his statements matter in relation to what's actually presented in the story.

??? I'm confused, what are you talking about? Actually, I would like to know if there is official information confirming these ideas came originally from Toriyama and not from someone else.

[ekrolo2]

Do you mind providing a source for that? Not that I think you are lying, but from my perspective it seems very weird that Toriyama was the one who suggested it. In a interview or two, he said Goku wouldn't need to transform into Super Saiyan God again and he actually did on Super's manga. I can see Toyotaro or someone else bringing that up to him and he just says "this is good!". Either way, I think this is such a minor detail that he wouldn't care.

You only need to watch the anime or read the manga to see the source. Goku's not a 6 to Beerus' 10 anymore, the SS forms of old were seemingly abolished only for all of them to come back, SSGod was meant as a gateway to a more powerful form ala Golden Oozaru and now it's back too,...

Frankly if Toriyama came out and said Super Saiyan regular was gold you'd need to point a BFG at me to believe him, that's how little his statements matter in relation to what's actually presented in the story.

??? I'm confused, what are you talking about? Actually, I would like to know if there is official information confirming these ideas came originally from Toriyama and not from someone else.

I'm talking about how various interview stuff from around the release of the films has been completely contradicted by Super. The 6-10-15 scale, SS2 and SS3 being retired, SSGod not coming back again, that's all Toriyama stuff from pre-Super and it's all been ignored by him now.

[buutenks]

Or maybe, they simple don't care. I am sure they know of the issue by noe. But since they can't be bothered to add a simple statement in an episode, to me it means they could care less about power consistency


I am afraid u all are fighting a losing battle, trying to make sense of this mess is impossible.

[Hugo Boss]

The point is not debating whether it was a good/bad thing to get rid of those plot points. I'm just curious about how people are so sure Toriyama was responsible for it. Is he that committed?

[Bullza]

I am afraid u all are fighting a losing battle, trying to make sense of this mess is impossible.

It depends how you look at it. To me the reason why the power levels in the show are a mess and impossible to figure out is simply because of behind the scenes/production/communication issues.

The big error of the series is they've made Goku and Vegeta much too strong to fit with the intended story that is being told.

Everyone in that Universe 6 Tournament except for Super Saiyan Blue and Hit were weaker than Buu yet because the anime made Base Goku out to be as strong as Super Saiyan God it jacked everyone's power up by default making everyone God level though we know that isn't true.

So it quite literally is impossible to make sense of when just going by what we're told in the anime. However when you combine it with other things like the manga you can get a sense of where characters are intended to be and you can make sense of it much easier that way.

Simply ignore the filler fights involving Gotenks and Beerus and have your head canon be that Goku was a Saiyan Beyond God up until the fight with Frieza and after that he just went back to normal and it all works.

[ekrolo2]

I am afraid u all are fighting a losing battle, trying to make sense of this mess is impossible.

It depends how you look at it. To me the reason why the power levels in the show are a mess and impossible to figure out is simply because of behind the scenes/production/communication issues.

The big error of the series is they've made Goku and Vegeta much too strong to fit with the intended story that is being told.

Everyone in that Universe 6 Tournament except for Super Saiyan Blue and Hit were weaker than Buu yet because the anime made Base Goku out to be as strong as Super Saiyan God it jacked everyone's power up by default making everyone God level though we know that isn't true.

So it quite literally is impossible to make sense of when just going by what we're told in the anime. However when you combine it with other things like the manga you can get a sense of where characters are intended to be and you can make sense of it much easier that way.

Simply ignore the filler fights involving Gotenks and Beerus and have your head canon be that Goku was a Saiyan Beyond God up until the fight with Frieza and after that he just went back to normal and it all works.

I'd say the Rageta line and KK would remain thoroughly problematic for the anime. That and Trunks' randomly rising and dropping power where one episode he can survive an attack meant to seriously hurt Blue Goku then being worthless shit tier until SSRage kicks in for him.

[ChiefWamsutta]

At the end of the day ... it really doesn't matter what Base Goku was in the past, now he is around Base Vegito or so.

In order to have a consistent in-universe anime, we have to figure out how to approach this production retcon. What makes the best sense for the story consistency-wise?



1) Base Goku and SS Goku during the end of the BoG arc were at SSG level and then he lost it somehow.

2) Base Goku and SS Goku were somewhat stronger than they were before they absorbed the SSG powers; however, they were not at SSG level.

[Triggered Vegeta]

At the end of the day ... it really doesn't matter what Base Goku was in the past, now he is around Base Vegito or so.

In order to have a consistent in-universe anime, we have to figure out how to approach this production retcon. What makes the best sense for the story consistency-wise?



1) Base Goku and SS Goku during the end of the BoG arc were at SSG level and then he lost it somehow.

2) Base Goku and SS Goku were somewhat stronger than they were before they absorbed the SSG powers; however, they were not at SSG level.

I've always thought Goku's ssjG power left his body... or just kept a tiny portion of the power
(Not the God Ki)

In order to regain the full power of ssjG, he had to train with Whis.

Base -> ssj3(Current) -> Can only access a portion

ssgss - > Taps into ssjG power at it's fullest

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

This is Ultimate Gohan all over again.

[The gr]

So is there a legit evidence to say base Goku and Vegeta on the u6 saga are above ssj3 tier,I want evidence