Why do people think that Android arc Trunks>Mecha arc Trunks?

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

There isn't any indication that the characters are meant to be interpreted any differently and there is no stated or implied power increase on Trunks' side.

[mcdjbeatz]

Because Trunks was below Goku after getting back from Yardrat but was comparable in power to Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo who underwent intense training for 3 years, due to this Trunks must have undergone training to catch up with these characters. There are several quotes that paint Trunks as comparable to these characters,

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4
Tenshinhan: “Th-this is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…”

Chapter: 354 (DBZ 160), P4.1
Context: after No.17 knocks out Trunks
Kuririn: “O-one hit..! And he was a Super Saiyan…!”

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.2
Context: after Kuririn apologies for not joining the fight with No.17 and No.18
Piccolo: “Don’t worry about it. Even Trunks as a Super Saiyan was done in with basically one blow. It wouldn’t have made any difference if you had come.”

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Because Trunks was below Goku after getting back from Yardrat but was comparable in power to Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo who underwent intense training for 3 years, due to this Trunks must have undergone training to catch up with these characters. There are several quotes that paint Trunks as comparable to these characters,

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4
Tenshinhan: “Th-this is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…”

Chapter: 354 (DBZ 160), P4.1
Context: after No.17 knocks out Trunks
Kuririn: “O-one hit..! And he was a Super Saiyan…!”

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.2
Context: after Kuririn apologies for not joining the fight with No.17 and No.18
Piccolo: “Don’t worry about it. Even Trunks as a Super Saiyan was done in with basically one blow. It wouldn’t have made any difference if you had come.”

None of that even slightly implies that Trunks is any different than before. It just means that the 3 Super Saiyans are all above everybody else.

Tien and Kami all keep bringing up the fact that Trunks defeated Freeza as a testament to his power even in the Android arc, so I don't know how anyone gets the impression that his power was meant to be interpreted any differently.

[miguelnuva1]

Piccolo thought the sick Goku that was stronger than yardrat Goku was pathetic but also thought he didn't compare to the three super saiyans.

Ssj Vegeta> Ssj Goku> Ssj Trunks (Android}> Piccolo (Androids)> Ssj Goku (sick)>Ssj goku (Yardrat)> Ssj Trunks (Trunks arc).

Should be something like this.

Also android Trunks implied he was almost a match for future 18.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Piccolo thought the sick Goku that was stronger than yardrat Goku was pathetic but also thought he didn't compare to the three super saiyans.

Ssj Vegeta> Ssj Goku> Ssj Trunks (Android}> Piccolo (Androids)> Ssj Goku (sick)>Ssj goku (Yardrat)> Ssj Trunks (Trunks arc).

Should be something like this.

Also android Trunks implied he was almost a match for future 18.

Sick Goku wasn't stated or implied to be stronger than Yardrat Goku. There isn't any implication to where Sick Goku's level is other than it being much lower than his hypothetical healthy power.

Trunks didn't imply that he was a match for #18. The narrative between arcs is exactly the same. He stated in the Android arc that he was powerless against Future #17 and #18. Trunks during the Android arc makes no note of an sort of improvement

The hierarchy is:

SSJ Vegeta>SSJ Goku>SSJ Goku(Yardrat)>SSJ Trunks(Mecha and Android arc)>Piccolo(Android arc)

Something like this
[spoiler]Base Future Trunks(Mecha & Android arc): 3,200,000
Super Saiyan Future Trunks: 160,000,000

Base Goku(Post Yardrat): 3,600,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 180,000,000

Piccolo(3 year timeskip): 115,000,000

Base Goku(3 year timeskip): 4,100,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 205,000,000

Base Vegeta(3 year timeskip): 4,200,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 210,000,000[/spoiler]

[Darkprince410]

Sick Goku wasn't stated or implied to be stronger than Yardrat Goku. There isn't any implication to where Sick Goku's level is other than it being much lower than his hypothetical healthy power.

Despite Tenshinhan having witnessed Goku and Trunks both being in the Ssj form three years prior, he reacted in shock and amazement at how powerful Goku was when transforming and fighting against #19. If Goku, even when sick and under the effects of the virus (as Piccolo indicates) was strong enough that Tenshinhan was shocked despite having seen and sensed his strength beforehand following his return from Yardrat, then yes, it is implied that he's stronger, even when sick.

Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”

Tenshinhan: “There’s no need to worry. Goku is outrageously strong. This ‘Super Saiyan’ thing is incredible…! [The androids] talk big, but they’re helpless.”

Trunks didn't imply that he was a match for #18. The narrative between arcs is exactly the same. He stated in the Android arc that he was powerless against Future #17 and #18. Trunks during the Android arc makes no note of an sort of improvement

Actually he does imply it. Following the "fight" with #17 and #18, Trunks makes this comment about the present #17 and #18 in comparison to the ones from his time.

Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

While "fairly well" doesn't indicate he was a match, it does at least imply that he didn't see the difference between them being that great.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Despite Tenshinhan having witnessed Goku and Trunks both being in the Ssj form three years prior, he reacted in shock and amazement at how powerful Goku was when transforming and fighting against #19. If Goku, even when sick and under the effects of the virus (as Piccolo indicates) was strong enough that Tenshinhan was shocked despite having seen and sensed his strength beforehand following his return from Yardrat, then yes, it is implied that he's stronger, even when sick.

Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”

Tenshinhan: “There’s no need to worry. Goku is outrageously strong. This ‘Super Saiyan’ thing is incredible…! [The androids] talk big, but they’re helpless.”

Tien's reaction doesn't imply that Sick Goku>Yardrat Goku. The face value interpretation of that is Sick Goku>>>>humans. Both SSJ Yardrat Goku and Sick Goku are in a dimension that's incomprehensible to Tien.

Actually he does imply it. Following the "fight" with #17 and #18, Trunks makes this comment about the present #17 and #18 in comparison to the ones from his time.

Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

While "fairly well" doesn't indicate he was a match, it does at least imply that he didn't see the difference between them being that great.

That doesn't imply improvement because it doesn't contradict anything Trunks' said prior about his standing compared to them. He didn't say "I've improved enough to fight them fairly well".

Your statement doesn't imply that the Androids aren't hugely stronger than Trunks, just that he can fight them fairly well, whatever Trunks deems that as.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

"No! I can turn into a Super Saiyan too--But I was still powerless! That's how powerful they are!"

Same exact narrative from the Mecha arc repeated in the Android arc. The fight that he gave to them in the History of Trunks special could fall under the category of " doing fairly well".

[Darkprince410]

Tien's reaction doesn't imply that Sick Goku>Yardrat Goku. The face value interpretation of that is Sick Goku>>>>humans. Both SSJ Yardrat Goku and Sick Goku are in a dimension that's incomprehensible to Tien.

If "sick" Goku wasn't putting out more power than he was when he showed off the form to Trunks, then the majority of Tenshinhan's lines wouldn't make sense. While the Goku being in a different dimension than them is obviously a reference to him vs. the non Saiya-jin, the simple fact that he's shocked at how amazingly powerful Goku is, despite already having sensed him in that state before, is an indicator of him being stronger than the last time he sensed Goku.

"No! I can turn into a Super Saiyan too--But I was still powerless! That's how powerful they are!"

That can simply be taken as him saying that, despite having the ability to transform, he was still powerless against #17 and #18. That wasn't a comparison between the ones from his time and the ones from the present.

[nickzambuto]

Yeah, all these points in favor of Trunks having grown stronger seem like quite a stretch. I don't think Tenshinhan being shocked at Goku's power means he had grown stronger. Three years is a long time since he sensed Goku's power, and after all his training, Ten was probably proud of his improvements, but the Super Saiyan power still left him in the dust. I'm not saying he's forgotten how strong Goku was, just that it's not a stretch to say Super Saiyan power is going to be shocking no matter how many times you sense it. Several times in the series we actually see characters becoming overwhelmed by a power level they sense and physically freezing. So just because Ten sensed Goku once before doesn't mean he'd suddenly treat that strength casually. He's still in awe.

I think better evidence would be comparing Vegeta and Trunks' performances against the androids. Vegeta wasn't able to injure 18, but he kept her on the backfoot most of the fight, outmaneuvered her, took her attacks and smiled, then came back for more. Trunks couldn't stay conscious after even one hit.

[Darkprince410]

I think better evidence would be comparing Vegeta and Trunks' performances against the androids. Vegeta wasn't able to injure 18, but he kept her on the backfoot most of the fight, outmaneuvered her, took her attacks and smiled, then came back for more. Trunks couldn't stay conscious after even one hit.

Trunks took a surprise attack from the more powerful #17 (and we know how damaging and effective surprise attacks can be in relation to normal ones) before having his father used as a baseball bat against him by #18. As such, their performance against the Artificial Humans isn't really a good frame of reference for their respective strengths.

[dragonball0900]

Yeah, all these points in favor of Trunks having grown stronger seem like quite a stretch. I don't think Tenshinhan being shocked at Goku's power means he had grown stronger. Three years is a long time since he sensed Goku's power, and after all his training, Ten was probably proud of his improvements, but the Super Saiyan power still left him in the dust. I'm not saying he's forgotten how strong Goku was, just that it's not a stretch to say Super Saiyan power is going to be shocking no matter how many times you sense it. Several times in the series we actually see characters becoming overwhelmed by a power level they sense and physically freezing. So just because Ten sensed Goku once before doesn't mean he'd suddenly treat that strength casually. He's still in awe.

I think better evidence would be comparing Vegeta and Trunks' performances against the androids. Vegeta wasn't able to injure 18, but he kept her on the backfoot most of the fight, outmaneuvered her, took her attacks and smiled, then came back for more. Trunks couldn't stay conscious after even one hit.

I think a good reason why Sick Goku is proved to be stronger than Yadrat Goku is because, if Sick Goku was weaker than Yadrat Goku then I'm pretty sure that Tien, Krillin and Yamcha would know that something was strange with his weaker power, they could still be amazed by his power, but surely they would know Goku was weaker than 3 years earlier. They would mention something like if he had never progressed at all.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I think better evidence would be comparing Vegeta and Trunks' performances against the androids. Vegeta wasn't able to injure 18, but he kept her on the backfoot most of the fight, outmaneuvered her, took her attacks and smiled, then came back for more. Trunks couldn't stay conscious after even one hit.

Trunks took a surprise attack from the more powerful #17 (and we know how damaging and effective surprise attacks can be in relation to normal ones) before having his father used as a baseball bat against him by #18. As such, their performance against the Artificial Humans isn't really a good frame of reference for their respective strengths.

And 18 wasn't going all out against Vegeta. A serious hit from 17 would put him down immediately.

[miguelnuva1]

Ttunks goes from powerless in theTrunks arc to I can figjt them fairly well in the Android arc. Thats improvment.

As others have said Tien sinced Yardrat Goku and thought Sick Goku was in another dimension so sick Goku as a ssj have improved at least as much as Tien did in 3 years as Tien has made.no ground.

Trunks at his weakest has atleast improve to Yardrat Goku level.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

If "sick" Goku wasn't putting out more power than he was when he showed off the form to Trunks, then the majority of Tenshinhan's lines wouldn't make sense. While the Goku being in a different dimension than them is obviously a reference to him vs. the non Saiya-jin, the simple fact that he's shocked at how amazingly powerful Goku is, despite already having sensed him in that state before, is an indicator of him being stronger than the last time he sensed Goku.

Both Yardrat and Sick Goku's SSJ ki is incomprehensible to Tien at the time. If X is at 1000, but fighter Y is at 1,500,000,000,000 and fighter Z is at 2,500,000,000,000, both powers Y and Z would be incomprehensible to fighter X.

Goku's SSJ ki is so large to Tien whether it be post Yardrat or Sick that they would feel the same. Just like Freeza and Base Goku's ki were stated to be beyond Piccolo's understanding. The same way that the Z-fighters needed to visually see the gap between SSJ2 Gohan and Cell because both kis were incomprehensible to all of them.

That can simply be taken as him saying that, despite having the ability to transform, he was still powerless against #17 and #18. That wasn't a comparison between the ones from his time and the ones from the present.

I'm not seeing why that matters. Trunks was powerless against the Androids, but says that he can fight them fairly well. There isn't anything saying that Trunks can't put up a decent fight even though the Androids are hugely stronger.

Trunks performance is the History of Trunks special could fall under the category of "decent".

[Son_Gohan]

Yeah, I think people generally take for granted that they continue growing stronger after a long period of time, even when it doesn't explicate that.

Important points to note is that Tenshinhan didn't truly get to see Super Saiyan Goku fighting and at full throttle until he took on #19; he had a 'sword fight' with Trunks after arriving from Yardrat, but even Goku admits that SSJ Trunks wasn't being serious, and Yamcha only emphasizes the Ki he gives off in the state while not fighting. There's also the assumption that Trunks fought the androids again after returning to his timeline, when it's never stated he did, and if he was convinced that only Goku held the key to beating them, then it would be futile to risk his life against them again when his power wouldn't have really changed much from their first encounter.

[miguelnuva1]

Yeah, I think people generally take for granted that they continue growing stronger after a long period of time, even when it doesn't explicate that.

Important points to note is that Tenshinhan didn't truly get to see Super Saiyan Goku fighting and at full throttle until he took on #19; he had a 'sword fight' with Trunks after arriving from Yardrat, but even Goku admits that SSJ Trunks wasn't being serious, and Yamcha only emphasizes the Ki he gives off in the state while not fighting. There's also the assumption that Trunks fought the androids again after returning to his timeline, when it's never stated he did, and if he was convinced that only Goku held the key to beating them, then it would be futile to risk his life against them again when his power wouldn't have really changed much from their first encounter.

Tien is talking about Sick Goku's standing around power. He saw Goku and Trunks 4 years ago and was still surprised at Goku's power before fighting. We also know that Gohan who trained Trunks knew he wasn't as strong as Yardart Goku and he kept fighting the Androids.

Based on dialogue it makes since Trunks fought them one more time after he returned to the future.

[Darkprince410]

Both Yardrat and Sick Goku's SSJ ki is incomprehensible to Tien at the time. If X is at 1000, but fighter Y is at 1,500,000,000,000 and fighter Z is at 2,500,000,000,000, both powers Y and Z would be incomprehensible to fighter X.

Goku's SSJ ki is so large to Tien whether it be post Yardrat or Sick that they would feel the same. Just like Freeza and Base Goku's ki were stated to be beyond Piccolo's understanding. The same way that the Z-fighters needed to visually see the gap between SSJ2 Gohan and Cell because both kis were incomprehensible to all of them.

We've never once seen that happen though, where the levels were so beyond the person doing the "sensing" that they couldn't even comprehend the limits. In Piccolo's case, he never said that it was beyond what he could understand, just that the tremendous size of their ki felt like it was crushing him, which is a far cry from not comprehending it at all. At no point have we had individuals sensing someone so much stronger than they were that they couldn't physically comprehend those limits. They may not be able to "believe" those levels, but nothing about them being unable to literally and physically comprehend them.

I'm not seeing why that matters. Trunks was powerless against the Androids, but says that he can fight them fairly well. There isn't anything saying that Trunks can't put up a decent fight even though the Androids are hugely stronger.

Trunks performance is the History of Trunks special could fall under the category of "decent".

Because it's simply not possible unless the stronger is holding back. To "fight fairly well" means to be able to do well against them, which wouldn't be possible at all if the gap is insane between them. Fairly well, despite it being open that one was weaker than the other, still heavily indicates the gap being fairly small. Goku fighting against Perfect Cell would be "fairly well" given the amount of power Cell was using. Trunks fighting against #17 and #18, as it was depicted in the anime special, isn't "fairly well" at all.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

We've never once seen that happen though, where the levels were so beyond the person doing the "sensing" that they couldn't even comprehend the limits. In Piccolo's case, he never said that it was beyond what he could understand, just that the tremendous size of their ki felt like it was crushing him, which is a far cry from not comprehending it at all. At no point have we had individuals sensing someone so much stronger than they were that they couldn't physically comprehend those limits. They may not be able to "believe" those levels, but nothing about them being unable to literally and physically comprehend them.

[spoiler][/spoiler]
Gohan: D-Dad can win right...?
Piccolo: There's no way to tell...Their powers are beyond our realms of comprehension...

and no one knew whether Gohan was stronger than Cell until they saw the gap for themselves.

Nonetheless, nothing in Tien's dialogue indicates anything about Goku's standing regardless. He's just still amazed that a Super Saiyan's ki is exceedingly large, incomparable to his own.

Because it's simply not possible unless the stronger is holding back. To "fight fairly well" means to be able to do well against them, which wouldn't be possible at all if the gap is insane between them. Fairly well, despite it being open that one was weaker than the other, still heavily indicates the gap being fairly small. Goku fighting against Perfect Cell would be "fairly well" given the amount of power Cell was using. Trunks fighting against #17 and #18, as it was depicted in the anime special, isn't "fairly well" at all.

He can fight them "fairly well" despite being "powerless" against them, so yes it's a huge gap. Fighting "fairly well" doesn't imply that you're close nor would that be the implication by definition.

It just means that he put up a decent fight, whatever Trunks deems as a decent fight in his mind. Gaps aren't consistent and nothing says that Trunks can't be hugely weaker than the Androids despite putting up a decent fight. He already did exactly that in the History of Trunks special before leaving to the past. You say Trunks' fight doesn't fall under "fairly well", but that's subjective. He actually managed to land hits on them. You don't know what Trunks' would consider "fairly well", so using that as evidence for improvement is moot. It only makes sense to follow the overall narrative. He states that he was powerless against them in the Mecha arc and he says the same thing in the Android arc.

Nappa(4,000) vs Goku(8,000)
Nappa does "fairly well" after he calms down even though his power level is only half of Goku's.

[Darkprince410]

Gohan: D-Dad can win right...?
Piccolo: There's no way to tell...Their powers are beyond our realms of comprehension...

The original dialogue is a bit different.

Gohan: “F-father can win…”
Piccolo: “We can’t know that…Their power far surpasses our understanding…”

Viz's translation indicates that it's well above what they're possibly able to fathom or understand, whereas the original doesn't indicate it's beyond what they could ever comprehend, just that it's unbelievable for them to be that strong, which is a noticeable difference.

With Gohan, their reactions were of shock and bewilderment of how strong he was rather than wondering how strong he was.

As for Tenshinhan's comments, nothing indicates he was unable to comprehend or fathom how powerful Ssj Goku was in either occasion, and the very fact that he's now commenting on how powerful Goku was and how amazing his strength is, when before he made no such comments, suggests that Goku's then current power was more amazing to him than before.

It just means that he put up a decent fight, whatever Trunks deems as a decent fight in his mind. Gaps aren't consistent and nothing says that Trunks can't be hugely weaker than the Androids despite putting up a decent fight. He already did exactly that in the History of Trunks special before leaving to the past. You say Trunks' fight doesn't fall under "fairly well", but that's subjective. He actually managed to land hits on them. You don't know what Trunks' would consider "fairly well", so using that as evidence for improvement is moot. It only makes sense to follow the overall narrative. He states that he was powerless against them in the Mecha arc and he says the same thing in the Android arc.

By his own words, following the encounter you're referring to in the anime special, he was shocked and amazed that he managed to make it home alive, and considered the gap between him and #17 and #18 too huge. Now, obviously, as you said, it's subjective, but the gap being "too huge" and being lucky to have made it back home alive doesn't come across as what one would consider a "close fight" or "fairly well".

[DBZ Macky]

In the Manga, he was able to go from being treated like a child even as a Super Saiyan by BASE Gohan to being as strong or maybe even stronger than him.

Plus we see the extent of his asspulls in the Super Anime, for whatever that's worth.

I won't be surprised if he went from being no match for the androids to being able to fight them fairly well in what little time he had.