Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ChiefWamsutta]

So is there a legit evidence to say base Goku and Vegeta on the u6 saga are above ssj3 tier,I want evidence

I highly doubt that there is any evidence. Nothing is ever directly stated, and we have no baseline for Botamo, Frost, Cabba, or Magetta's power levels. That is why I have Base Goku and Base Vegeta equal to Ultimate Gohan (Buu Saga) during the U6 Tournament.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Yeah which is right. Going from Super Saiyan God to Super Saiyan his strength was at first the exact same but then as a Super Saiyan he continued to bring out more of Super Saiyan God's power as was shown after Goku powered up further at the very end.

Something he said while Goku was struggling to breathe under water and was on the verge of drowning. Beerus even had to drag him out of the ocean. It was also said moments before Beerus said

"Now this is the power of Super Saiyan God"

It's said right there he had the power of Super Saiyan God.

Both SSJG and SSJ Goku wielding God power validates Goku's statement, since he specifically said that his power itself doesn't feel weaker. That doesn't refer to them being able to use it in equal amounts.
We see Goku increasing his power after Beerus' taunt, yet he wasn't stated to have surpassed his previous limit, so this is the only real possible conclusion.
I don't see how Goku drowning somehow invalidates Beerus' statement. He was in that position in the first place due to his inadequate power as stated by Beerus.

So the statement in Episode 13 when Beerus states

"Time and again, you surpassed your limits and got stronger"

Wasn't stated?

Yeah, it's talking about the times where he was stated to surpass his limits, not the instances that you're guessing he did.

You gave me one interpretation that says one thing whilst two others say another thing. Neither matters because Beerus was shown to nullify the super dense energy ball and the one Kamehameha but didn't with the final one because it was more powerful.

If Goku is asking when using a Kamehameha if that's the limits of his power then he is putting out every last ounce of strenght or it wouldn't have been his limit and the question wouldn't have needed to be asked.

SSJG Goku's Kamehameha didn't have every ounce of Goku's power in them including all of his reserves.
Since when does being at your limit imply that every ounce of your energy is currently in your attack? Goku doesn't use up all of his energy whenever he gets into a beam struggle.

I know he's not. Base Goku is Super Saiyan God.

Base Goku can transform into a Super Saiyan God. Base Goku isn't a Super Saiyan God, he just has it's essence. Only Super Saiyan Blue surpassed a Super Saiyan God in strength. BOG SSJG Goku is a Super Saiyan God, therefore he was only surpassed by Blue.

And again that's correct. Base Goku is Super Saiyan God therefore when he turns Super Saiyan he becomes Blue. As I pointed out Base Goku was for a fact as strong as Super Saiyan God in the original version (proof in the picture on the last page).

And you can't say "Well that was the movie, this is the anime and it's different" because it's not. The same explanation was given for it in the anime aswell.

Super Saiyan Blue is Goku as a Saiyan who'd absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God transforming into a Super Saiyan.

How does a picture of Base Goku with God behind him prove that he's equal to Super Saiyan God? It just means that he has god's essence, which is true since all of their lower forms are much stronger than before.

Super Saiyan Blue is stated to be the Super Saiyan God form being combined with the power of Super Saiyan. Base Goku isn't a Super Saiyan God, so obviously he can use the basic SSJ whenever he wants.

Which is exactly where the problem lies because he shouldn't be able to turn into the regular Super Saiyan. The manga version never had Goku absorb the power of Super Saiyan God which is why Goku can still turn into a Super Saiyan (and also God).

If Goku can use Super Saiyan, then it would mean that you were wrong, not that the official work was lying to you.

If manga Goku didn't absorb God, then he wouldn't have been able to use SSJG. The manga is no different from the anime or the movies in that area.
All Goku's from all media can transform into the Super Saiyan God form itself.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

I just realized that the two-base theory can almost be translated in full to the Super manga, if you just accept that post-BoG SSG Goku takes on the original aesthetics in one and not the other. Heck, it was so subtle in his training with Trunks that Beerus actually had to point it out to the reader.

I'm not sold on the two-base theory, but that last part at least sets a precedent for how Goku could go from one base to the other in the flick of a switch.

[Bullza]

We see Goku increasing his power after Beerus' taunt, yet he wasn't stated to have surpassed his previous limit, so this is the only real possible conclusion.

Not that any such thing would need to be stated, he increased his power from when he first became a Super Saiyan and at that point his power was the same as it had just been as a Super Saiyan God. The only thing he lost was the aura, he kept the power that was supposed to have getting powering up throughout.

He told Beerus he was using 100% of his power when he was a SSJG but even being told that, Beerus still questioned how SSJ Goku surely had to be at his limit by now when he was pushing the ball back. Even if by chance he wasn't stronger, as a Super Saiyan and then in Base from that point on until at least when he fought Frieza he was meant to be as strong as Super Saiyan God because he had that power inside him.

Yeah, it's talking about the times where he was stated to surpass his limits, not the instances that you're guessing he did.

If they're saying he time and again surpassed his limits why would you assume that that would suddenly stop being true in the middle of the fight when they continued to talk about his limits and he was shown to do things he couldn't before?

SSJG Goku's Kamehameha didn't have every ounce of Goku's power in them including all of his reserves. Since when does being at your limit imply that every ounce of your energy is currently in your attack?

Since ever. When SSJG Goku fired that Kamehameha and started to become overwhelmed, if he could have brought out more power then

1. He would have
2. It wouldn't actually be the limit of his power so wouldn't make sense for him to wonder if he were at his limit.

How could it have even been the every ounce of his energy anyway considering that right after that he was able to punch a part an energy mass that contained more energy than said Kamehameha?

Base Goku can transform into a Super Saiyan God. Base Goku isn't a Super Saiyan God, he just has it's essence. Only Super Saiyan Blue surpassed a Super Saiyan God in strength. BOG SSJG Goku is a Super Saiyan God, therefore he was only surpassed by Blue.

He can only transform into a Super Saiyan God in the manga because they never said he absorbed it's power. He can't transform into one in the anime because he did absorb the power. I have no idea what this essence thing is, it's not a thing. He absorbed the power of God into himself so he's just as strong as that power.

Base Goku = Super Saiyan God Goku.

And yes only Blue surpassed God. Base Goku didn't surpass God because Base Goku has the power of God.

How does a picture of Base Goku with God behind him prove that he's equal to Super Saiyan God? It just means that he has god's essence, which is true since all of their lower forms are much stronger than before.

Again what on Earth is God's essence? That's something that has never been said in the show. He absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God into his body. He is from then on using that power that's within him which is why he's so strong. All his other forms aren't stronger than they were before because he's using some unknown fraction of that power. He's using the entire power.

If manga Goku didn't absorb God, then he wouldn't have been able to use SSJG. The manga is no different from the anime or the movies in that area.
All Goku's from all media can transform into the Super Saiyan God form itself.

Of course it's different. The manga never had Goku go from a Super Saiyan God back into a Super Saiyan and keep fighting. They never said he absorbed it's power unlike the other two versions. It's shown to be a transformation that's reappeared when he was fighting Hit and Trunks.

In an interview for Battle of Gods Toriyama said that Super Saiyan God wouldn't appear again because he'd absorbed the power. In the anime he absorbed the power and it has never been seen again. He can't transform into it because he's already got that power.

In the manga he's able to turn back into an ordinary Super Saiyan for this very reason because he's not a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan he's just a Saiyan as a Super Saiyan. That's not true for the anime though and that causes the problem with everything.

[Bullza]

So is there a legit evidence to say base Goku and Vegeta on the u6 saga are above ssj3 tier,I want evidence

No the opposite would seem much more likely. In Dragon Ball Z SSJ3 Goku was much stronger than Good Buu.

In the Universe 6 saga Good Buu was stronger than Piccolo. Base Cabba was implied to be (perhaps aside from the gimmicky Botamo) the weakest of everyone participating going by Vegeta questioning why he'd even bother to enter if he were so weak but then Base Cabba was on par with Base Vegeta so you'd end up getting

SSJ3 Goku (Z) > Good Buu > Piccolo > Base Cabba = Base Vegeta = Base Goku

Essentially just the exact same power scale as it always was in DBZ. This is a lot more obvious in the manga as well because Piccolo wasn't shown as being nearly as inferior to SSJ Goku as he was made to look in the anime.

[DBZ Macky]

But it's still possible that Vegeta and Goku have improved so much that just their regular Super Saiyan forms are stronger than Boo, right?

Also, how strong is Boo exactly? As strong as he's always been or a whole lot weaker due to expelling his evil counterpart?

[Bullza]

But it's still possible that Vegeta and Goku have improved so much that just their regular Super Saiyan forms are stronger than Boo, right?

That's definitely how it should be. People say the current Super SSJB Goku is over 10 times as strong as SSJB Goku during the Universe 6 saga.

Shouldn't that then be true for all his other forms? Afterall Base Goku was weaker than Frieza but recently he was shown to be on par with Base Gohan who was on par with Piccolo. That's a huge boost in strenght.

Also, how strong is Boo exactly? As strong as he's always been or a whole lot weaker due to expelling his evil counterpart?

This is what Herms says in the strength checker thread.

Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P7.4
Context: as the two Boos fight
Narrator: “The original Majin Boo had no chance of winning...This was because during the split, the majority of the power went to the evil one…"

So it would seem like he did become weaker. I'd still say he was stronger than a Super Saiyan 2 though. He put up a much better fight against Kid Buu than SSJ2 Vegeta did.

[pacz360]

So is there a legit evidence to say base Goku and Vegeta on the u6 saga are above ssj3 tier,I want evidence

Base goku and vegeta are above ssj3 tier given vegeta stomped gotenks during the copy vegeta arc and base goku being equal to him
And base goku keeping up with beerus in the monaka suit while in bog he was two shotted with absolute ease as ssj3 along with gotenks and mystic gohan
Nothing implied that base goku and vegeta strength were different than it was in the u6 arc.

[ChiefWamsutta]

One issue I have with SS Goku after losing SSG being a conduit for SSBlue is ... what about Vegeta?

Goku loses SSGod and, if, then he gains its power in SS ... how does Vegeta training give him the SSGod power?

I think because they made Goku and Vegeta achieve SSGod power in different ways it fucked everything up even more.

[Ki Breaker]

Quick question, how storng was giant Bergamo? He couldn't have been stronger than SS goku yet he was able to push back SSBkaioken with his Wolfgang plot penetrator, how

[DBZ Macky]

Quick question, how storng was giant Bergamo? He couldn't have been stronger than SS goku yet he was able to push back SSBkaioken with his Wolfgang plot penetrator, how

He was definitely stronger than SS Goku. His ability absorbs the damage inflicted by the opponent, doubles it, and gives the power to Bergamo.

So theoretically, Bergamo would be as strong as a SS2 if SS Goku was attacking him with full power.

The Wolfgang penetrator might be a special technique like the Kienzan or the Kikoho, so the fact that Goku's battle power was much, much higher wouldn't even matter. I personally have the technique as a 10x "multiplier" to the base power.

My numbas:
SS Goku- 50
Bergamo- 88
SSB KK Goku- 1000
Bergamo (Wolfgang Penetrator)- 880

[ZombieVito]

I just realized that the two-base theory can almost be translated in full to the Super manga, if you just accept that post-BoG SSG Goku takes on the original aesthetics in one and not the other. Heck, it was so subtle in his training with Trunks that Beerus actually had to point it out to the reader.

I'm not sold on the two-base theory, but that last part at least sets a precedent for how Goku could go from one base to the other in the flick of a switch.

The theory fixes every power scale issue in the series. I don't understand why people won't accept it.

[The gr]

Quick question, how storng was giant Bergamo? He couldn't have been stronger than SS goku yet he was able to push back SSBkaioken with his Wolfgang plot penetrator, how

Um he power up. Before Goku uses the Kamehameha,why does everyone ignores that, and honestly I'm not going judge Bergamo, because we didn't even see his full power

[ChiefWamsutta]

I just realized that the two-base theory can almost be translated in full to the Super manga, if you just accept that post-BoG SSG Goku takes on the original aesthetics in one and not the other. Heck, it was so subtle in his training with Trunks that Beerus actually had to point it out to the reader.

I'm not sold on the two-base theory, but that last part at least sets a precedent for how Goku could go from one base to the other in the flick of a switch.

The theory fixes every power scale issue in the series. I don't understand why people won't accept it.

Probably because we would just be guessing at when Goku is Saiyan Beyond God and when he is regular Base. It also wasn't really said if he ever had it or not.

Goku hypothetically hasn't used Saiyan Beyond God since Monaka-Beerus and Copy-Vegeta. Why suddenly stop?

There also wouldn't be a good reason why Vegeta has Saiyan Beyond God. He should just have a really strong Base form, as all he did was train with Whis. If this were true, it should be:

Vegeta, Base < SS1 < SS2 <<< SSB
Goku, Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 << Saiyan Beyond God < SSB

Also, Saiyan Beyond God and the Two-Base Theory don't speak about Goku's Ep. 14 SS form and where that went.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

One issue I have with SS Goku after losing SSG being a conduit for SSBlue is ... what about Vegeta?

Goku loses SSGod and, if, then he gains its power in SS ... how does Vegeta training give him the SSGod power?

I think because they made Goku and Vegeta achieve SSGod power in different ways it fucked everything up even more.

This is true. If Vegeta became "a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God who goes Super Saiyan" via training, how would he even have two bases? And if he doesn't have them it raises the question of why Goku needs them either, if going regular Super Saiyan 1/2/3 doesn't actually rely upon it.

I know people wanna feel like the Base Goku fighting Gohan isn't holding back or whatever, but...the character is always gonna be holding back anyway. And if it hasn't already happened, one day Goku is going to be kicking some God-level character's ass in Base, transform into SSJ1 without getting weaker, and then what.

[Hugo Boss]

Quick question, how storng was giant Bergamo? He couldn't have been stronger than SS goku yet he was able to push back SSBkaioken with his Wolfgang plot penetrator, how

He was definitely stronger than SS Goku. His ability absorbs the damage inflicted by the opponent, doubles it, and gives the power to Bergamo.

So theoretically, Bergamo would be as strong as a SS2 if SS Goku was attacking him with full power.

The Wolfgang penetrator might be a special technique like the Kienzan or the Kikoho, so the fact that Goku's battle power was much, much higher wouldn't even matter. I personally have the technique as a 10x "multiplier" to the base power.

My numbas:
SS Goku- 50
Bergamo- 88
SSB KK Goku- 1000
Bergamo (Wolfgang Penetrator)- 880

I think the Kaioshin from Universe 9 exaggerated a bit when describing Bergamo's ability. It doesn't necessarily double the powerlevel of the attacks. It works while Bergamo is equally powerful with his opponent, so the power he absorbs would produce twice the power he was hit with.

[Bullza]

Probably because we would just be guessing at when Goku is Saiyan Beyond God and when he is regular Base. It also wasn't really said if he ever had it or not.

Goku has only ever been a Saiyan Beyond God during his fight with Beerus and then all the way up to when he fought Frieza. When he fought Copy Vegeta and when he fought Monaka/Beerus.

The two base theory absolutely does not work with the story. It can't be made sense of, he doesnt switch between powers or anything like that. It only works if you can accept the show had behind the scenes issues.

By all accounts Final Form Frieza would have beaten the absolute tar out of Base Black (at least before the last zenkai anyway).

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Not that any such thing would need to be stated, he increased his power from when he first became a Super Saiyan and at that point his power was the same as it had just been as a Super Saiyan God. The only thing he lost was the aura, he kept the power that was supposed to have getting powering up throughout.

He told Beerus he was using 100% of his power when he was a SSJG but even being told that, Beerus still questioned how SSJ Goku surely had to be at his limit by now when he was pushing the ball back. Even if by chance he wasn't stronger, as a Super Saiyan and then in Base from that point on until at least when he fought Frieza he was meant to be as strong as Super Saiyan God because he had that power inside him.

Already countered this. Goku says that his power itself feels no weaker. Post god Goku was using the same power, but not in the same amount, hence why Beerus deemed his post god power as inadequate initially.

Goku is only portrayed as strong as Super Saiyan God when he assumes the transformation itself, not in Base as was already stated.

If they're saying he time and again surpassed his limits why would you assume that that would suddenly stop being true in the middle of the fight when they continued to talk about his limits and he was shown to do things he couldn't before?

Why would I assume what? You're guessing when he did. That isn't comparable to my logic that he wasn't surpassing any limit unless stated or implied.

Since ever. When SSJG Goku fired that Kamehameha and started to become overwhelmed, if he could have brought out more power then

1. He would have
2. It wouldn't actually be the limit of his power so wouldn't make sense for him to wonder if he were at his limit.

How could it have even been the every ounce of his energy anyway considering that right after that he was able to punch a part an energy mass that contained more energy than said Kamehameha?

That's not what it means. Someone being at their limit during a beam struggle doesn't mean that their attack has every ounce of their ki. Gohan wasn't out of ki after losing the beam struggle to Lavender. Their "limit" is just the maximum amount of power they can keep pouring into their attack at a time.

SSJ Goku took every ounce of his ki, then concentrated it into one Kamehameha. Not comparable, so no this isn't even an argument.

He can only transform into a Super Saiyan God in the manga because they never said he absorbed it's power. He can't transform into one in the anime because he did absorb the power. I have no idea what this essence thing is, it's not a thing. He absorbed the power of God into himself so he's just as strong as that power.

Base Goku = Super Saiyan God Goku.

And yes only Blue surpassed God. Base Goku didn't surpass God because Base Goku has the power of God.

Base Goku isn't a Super Saiyan God. Super Saiyan God Goku is a Super Saiyan God. Merely having the power of god doesn't make you a Super Saiyan God. You need to assume the form itself.

If Goku didn't absorb SSJG, then he wouldn't be able to use it. How hard is this to understand? Absorbing the form doesn't magically make it disappear forever. Goku in the movie reactivated SSJG after absorbing it.

Again what on Earth is God's essence? That's something that has never been said in the show. He absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God into his body. He is from then on using that power that's within him which is why he's so strong. All his other forms aren't stronger than they were before because he's using some unknown fraction of that power. He's using the entire power.

He doesn't have the god ki, therefore isn't using everything SSJG has.

Of course it's different. The manga never had Goku go from a Super Saiyan God back into a Super Saiyan and keep fighting. They never said he absorbed it's power unlike the other two versions. It's shown to be a transformation that's reappeared when he was fighting Hit and Trunks.

In an interview for Battle of Gods Toriyama said that Super Saiyan God wouldn't appear again because he'd absorbed the power. In the anime he absorbed the power and it has never been seen again. He can't transform into it because he's already got that power.

In the manga he's able to turn back into an ordinary Super Saiyan for this very reason because he's not a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan he's just a Saiyan as a Super Saiyan. That's not true for the anime though and that causes the problem with everything.

Not seeing why the fight being different in the manga matters. You're argument is nonsense because Goku can transform into a Super Saiyan, therefore you somehow equating Base Goku to Super Saiyan God doesn't have any merit. It just means that you were wrong, even though you don't want to admit it. Base Goku was never equated to a Super Saiyan God.
Goku stated that he mastered the Super Saiyan God form itself and evolved it into Blue, therefore he can still use the SSJG transformation if he wanted to.

[Hugo Boss]

Are you guys aware that Herms and Emma Winters translated this stuff on the Fact Thread?

By the way, if you want to save the trouble of reading it, it's said Goku used the last bits of power he had left in that kamehameha, he had reached his peak condition a while ago, but continued to drag that fight. One episode later, Vegeta reflected that Goku surpassed Super Saiyan God, in order words he mastered the power. This point is corroborated several times in other medias, such as in the interview I mentioned pages ago.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

You would think that if Toei could release that Black arc timeline graph, then they could fucking tell us how Super Saiyan God currently works.