"And when I say give Buu what's coming to him, I mean make sure to screw about with him until he powers up to overpower you. It worked so well with Cell!"Doctor. wrote:Ultimate Tenkaichi's version of ultimate Gohan's goodbye to Goku is the best version of this moment.
Kanassa wrote:- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
Mystic Gohan is the embodiment of everything wrong, fan perception and writing wise with Gohan. I don't think there's a more mishandled character than him in the entire franchise.Kanassa wrote:"And when I say give Buu what's coming to him, I mean make sure to screw about with him until he powers up to overpower you. It worked so well with Cell!"Doctor. wrote:Ultimate Tenkaichi's version of ultimate Gohan's goodbye to Goku is the best version of this moment.
I love Adult Gohan the most out of all iterations of Gohan, but I dislike Mystic Gohan.
Uh, Bardock?ekrolo2 wrote:Mystic Gohan is the embodiment of everything wrong, fan perception and writing wise with Gohan. I don't think there's a more mishandled character than him in the entire franchise.Kanassa wrote:"And when I say give Buu what's coming to him, I mean make sure to screw about with him until he powers up to overpower you. It worked so well with Cell!"Doctor. wrote:Ultimate Tenkaichi's version of ultimate Gohan's goodbye to Goku is the best version of this moment.
I love Adult Gohan the most out of all iterations of Gohan, but I dislike Mystic Gohan.
Kanassa wrote:- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
Most of Bardock's stuff is ancillary material you can pretty much ignore. Even Minus is so far removed from the rest of the events in the series and matters so little it doesn't hurt him that much for me. Gohan being screwed with as part of the consistent, core cast is a lot harder to overlook.Kanassa wrote:Uh, Bardock?ekrolo2 wrote:Mystic Gohan is the embodiment of everything wrong, fan perception and writing wise with Gohan. I don't think there's a more mishandled character than him in the entire franchise.Kanassa wrote: "And when I say give Buu what's coming to him, I mean make sure to screw about with him until he powers up to overpower you. It worked so well with Cell!"
I love Adult Gohan the most out of all iterations of Gohan, but I dislike Mystic Gohan.
Bardock's "mishandling" has been vastly exaggerated by fans. 95% of it comes from DBM, which was just a nothing little promotional chapter for the Jaco the Galactic Patrolman collected volume that people took absurdly seriously.Kanassa wrote:Uh, Bardock?ekrolo2 wrote:Mystic Gohan is the embodiment of everything wrong, fan perception and writing wise with Gohan. I don't think there's a more mishandled character than him in the entire franchise.
It's not Minus. People complain about Bardock because of his portrayal in Episode of Bardock (which is irredeemably trash) as well as the videogames.Jinzoningen MULE wrote:Bardock's "mishandling" has been vastly exaggerated by fans. 95% of it comes from DBM, which was just a nothing little promotional chapter for Jaco the Galactic Patrolman that people took absurdly seriously.Kanassa wrote:Uh, Bardock?ekrolo2 wrote:Mystic Gohan is the embodiment of everything wrong, fan perception and writing wise with Gohan. I don't think there's a more mishandled character than him in the entire franchise.
My issue with the fight is the context of it for two major reasons:Jinzoningen MULE wrote:Why's that? I thought the rematch was a bit corny (and for some reason, almost non-existent in the manga), but it worked well enough for what it worked. It also made for great characterization of Vegeta.Lord Beerus wrote:I don't think Goku and Vegeta should have fought again seriously after their first scuffle in the Saiyan arc.
So the fight would have been okay if Goku didn't have SS3? Like what we were supposed to think?Lord Beerus wrote:My issue with the fight is the context of it for two major reasons:Jinzoningen MULE wrote:Why's that? I thought the rematch was a bit corny (and for some reason, almost non-existent in the manga), but it worked well enough for what it worked. It also made for great characterization of Vegeta.Lord Beerus wrote:I don't think Goku and Vegeta should have fought again seriously after their first scuffle in the Saiyan arc.
(1) It was a fight that contributed to an ancient deity being resurrected, who would eventually go on to destroy the world.
(2) And this is the biggest pet-peeve I have with the fight as a whole: Goku could have ended the fight instantly. It was even never a fair fight to begin. Vegeta realistically had no chance winning. But what really grinds my gears is Goku's reasoning for holding back. It's total bollocks. I'll never understand why Goku ever took Vegeta's feelings in consideration, or why people hypothesis that to be case, in the scenario of why he didn't SSJ3 against Majin Vegeta at that time to end the fight quickly. Vegeta murdered over 200 people at the WMAT just to goad Goku into fighting him. Honestly, fuck what Vegeta thinks or feels. Goku should have never entered Vegeta's ego after that act. And don't give me the bullshit excuse that Goku gave later about how didn't want to use SSJ3 in that fight as he wanted to save it for later. That is nonsense. There was no reason at all for him to keep SSJ3 in his back pocket that time. What was saving it for? The current threat that was endangering the planet was right there and then, and he could have prevented it and he chose not to.
The fight would've made infinitely more sense if Goku's ACTUAL maximum power was SS2. As we know, he intended to use SS2 to quickly overpower and beat Vegeta to prevent Boo from hatching but Vegeta having SS2 as well screwed his plans up. But not really, cause Goku can one shot him with 3 then IT over to Dabura and stomp him and Babidi too.Doctor. wrote:So the fight would have been okay if Goku didn't have SS3? Like what we were supposed to think?Lord Beerus wrote:My issue with the fight is the context of it for two major reasons:Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Why's that? I thought the rematch was a bit corny (and for some reason, almost non-existent in the manga), but it worked well enough for what it worked. It also made for great characterization of Vegeta.
(1) It was a fight that contributed to an ancient deity being resurrected, who would eventually go on to destroy the world.
(2) And this is the biggest pet-peeve I have with the fight as a whole: Goku could have ended the fight instantly. It was even never a fair fight to begin. Vegeta realistically had no chance winning. But what really grinds my gears is Goku's reasoning for holding back. It's total bollocks. I'll never understand why Goku ever took Vegeta's feelings in consideration, or why people hypothesis that to be case, in the scenario of why he didn't SSJ3 against Majin Vegeta at that time to end the fight quickly. Vegeta murdered over 200 people at the WMAT just to goad Goku into fighting him. Honestly, fuck what Vegeta thinks or feels. Goku should have never entered Vegeta's ego after that act. And don't give me the bullshit excuse that Goku gave later about how didn't want to use SSJ3 in that fight as he wanted to save it for later. That is nonsense. There was no reason at all for him to keep SSJ3 in his back pocket that time. What was saving it for? The current threat that was endangering the planet was right there and then, and he could have prevented it and he chose not to.
That's not what I've seen fans so vocal about, but even if that's the case, it's the same thing. It's was a promotional nothing of a sequel that people take too seriously. It's like complaining about his characterization in the second Shin Budokai video game.Doctor. wrote:It's not Minus. People complain about Bardock because of his portrayal in Episode of Bardock (which is irredeemably trash) as well as the videogames.
I mean, it's still the Boo Arc, I'm judging it in the context of that ADHD narrative hellhole. It was still fine for what it is.Lord Beerus wrote:My issue with the fight is the context of it for two major reasons:
(1) It was a fight that contributed to an ancient deity being resurrected, who would eventually go on to destroy the world.
(2) And this is the biggest pet-peeve I have with the fight as a whole: Goku could have ended the fight instantly. It was even never a fair fight to begin. Vegeta realistically had no chance winning. But what really grinds my gears is Goku's reasoning for holding back. It's total bollocks. I'll never understand why Goku ever took Vegeta's feelings in consideration, or why people hypothesis that to be case, in the scenario of why he didn't SSJ3 against Majin Vegeta at that time to end the fight quickly. Vegeta murdered over 200 people at the WMAT just to goad Goku into fighting him. Honestly, fuck what Vegeta thinks or feels. Goku should have never entered Vegeta's ego after that act. And don't give me the bullshit excuse that Goku gave later about how didn't want to use SSJ3 in that fight as he wanted to save it for later. That is nonsense. There was no reason at all for him to keep SSJ3 in his back pocket that time. What was saving it for? The current threat that was endangering the planet was right there and then, and he could have prevented it and he chose not to.
Exactly. Goku should have never been given SSJ3. Because it undermines everything about the Goku and Vegeta's second fight. Vegeta wast destined to never win that fight because of that ace in the hole that Goku had. But more importantly: it makes Goku look like the most selfish and irresponsible asshole in the universe.ekrolo2 wrote:The fight would've made infinitely more sense if Goku's ACTUAL maximum power was SS2. As we know, he intended to use SS2 to quickly overpower and beat Vegeta to prevent Boo from hatching but Vegeta having SS2 as well screwed his plans up. But not really, cause Goku can one shot him with 3 then IT over to Dabura and stomp him and Babidi too.Doctor. wrote:So the fight would have been okay if Goku didn't have SS3? Like what we were supposed to think?Lord Beerus wrote: My issue with the fight is the context of it for two major reasons:
(1) It was a fight that contributed to an ancient deity being resurrected, who would eventually go on to destroy the world.
(2) And this is the biggest pet-peeve I have with the fight as a whole: Goku could have ended the fight instantly. It was even never a fair fight to begin. Vegeta realistically had no chance winning. But what really grinds my gears is Goku's reasoning for holding back. It's total bollocks. I'll never understand why Goku ever took Vegeta's feelings in consideration, or why people hypothesis that to be case, in the scenario of why he didn't SSJ3 against Majin Vegeta at that time to end the fight quickly. Vegeta murdered over 200 people at the WMAT just to goad Goku into fighting him. Honestly, fuck what Vegeta thinks or feels. Goku should have never entered Vegeta's ego after that act. And don't give me the bullshit excuse that Goku gave later about how didn't want to use SSJ3 in that fight as he wanted to save it for later. That is nonsense. There was no reason at all for him to keep SSJ3 in his back pocket that time. What was saving it for? The current threat that was endangering the planet was right there and then, and he could have prevented it and he chose not to.
I agree about Super Saiyan 4, but not about Super Saiyan. Not only did he earn it, he didn't ruin it.I also dislike how they keep giving Vegeta these unearned power ups just to keep him relevant, happened when he gained and and ruined SS
It wasn't much of an arc before his death, and I disagree with Hermes if that's how he put it. He didn't make a different character, just took him in a different direction than he first envisioned.ended his arc as a character perfectly, Herms touched upon this and said he felt that Toriyama had to effectively re-write Vegeta as a character after.
TheMikado defines best:Lord Beerus wrote:*snip*
Noah wrote:This is a great point of view, mate, I always thought that Goku didn't turn SSJ3 against Vegeta because he wasn't really used with this form (as he said to Boo), didn't think it could settle everything and he was actually looking foward to defeat Vegeta being equal in power, something like a challenge he made to himself. But I do like your view too, Goku wanting to redeem Vegeta works just fine.TheMikado wrote:Even when I look at the Majin Vegeta thing, Vegeta wanted to restore his power by being evil. The choice Goku makes not to use SSJ3 is the right one only due to the fact that it may have slipped Vegeta further into evil by seeing Goku surpass him yet again. That's the way I've always interpreted it. I won't really address your other points because they dont have any actual larger impact of consequences so its not really a big deal. That's Goku. You can fault him forthe not fusing thing, but it really didn't matter, he had already saved everyone and he was more powerful than Buu. Should he have taken that risk? Probably not, but the edge was certainly on their side. You can't compare inconsequential issues to endangering a bunch a people, and even in your examples Goku always has the edge in those scenarios, he just underestimates. When things get serious I expect Goku to make the best decisions, and even in your SSJ3 example. Knowing I'm going to be dead and disappeared soon and leaving behind an angry Majin Vegeta, it would do my best to rehabilitate him rather than agitate him by powering up even further.
More evil? You mean instead of killing 200 innocent people he'd kill 200 innocent planets? But, I don't think this explanation works because Vegeta was ticked off at Goku later for holding back on him.The choice Goku makes not to use SSJ3 is the right one only due to the fact that it may have slipped Vegeta further into evil by seeing Goku surpass him yet again.
Did you watch the Buu saga?? Babidi specifically orders Vegeta to kill everyone and Vegeta refuses and says he will only fight Goku. Vegeta had not yet slipped into full evil as recognized by his sacrifice against Buu.LuckyCat wrote:More evil? You mean instead of killing 200 innocent people he'd kill 200 innocent planets? But, I don't think this explanation works because Vegeta was ticked off at Goku later for holding back on him.The choice Goku makes not to use SSJ3 is the right one only due to the fact that it may have slipped Vegeta further into evil by seeing Goku surpass him yet again.
Goku is not oblivious to these facts and Vegeta literally chronicles his distress and fall from grace. He even says he grew no stronger from his family. He was already at his wit's end on how to surpass Goku. So desperate and obsessed that he allowed Babidi to possess him. Goku recognized that sad state of Vegeta and his distress where he would even kill for the chance to achieve his obsession, however he was not evil."Amazing. How do you do it, Kakarot?
You've always been like this, ever since the day I first met you; always ready to meet the next challenge, even if it's bigger than you are...
It was the same on Namek. You had improved so much that it made Recoome like he was standing still. Your power had increased so dramatically since our battle on Earth that I thought you had done it, I thought that you had become a Super Saiyan! It tore me apart! How could a low-class soldier accomplish so easily what I...I had to struggle my whole life to achieve!?
After three millennia, it has finally happened; a new Super Saiyan has emerged, and, somehow, I have become this pauper's witness. Then at last, it happened. I too transformed. After living every moment of every day for the singular purpose of surpassing you, I finally became a Super Saiyan myself, the Prince had reclaimed his throne and fulfilled his destiny. But no matter how strong I became, your power still exceeded mine.
At first, I thought it was your loved ones; that it was your instinct to protect them that spurred you on and pushed you beyond your limits. But then I found myself with a family of my own, and my power... didn't increase at all.
I used to fight for the sheer of pleasure of it; for the thrill of the hunt, oh I had the strength unmeasurable - I spared no one. And yet, you showed mercy to everyone, even your fiercest enemies, even me! Yet, you never fought to kill, or for revenge. Only to test your limits and to push yourself beyond them, to become the strongest you could possibly be. How can a Saiyan fight like that and at the same time be so gentle that he wouldn't hurt a fly? It makes me angry just thinking about it! But, perhaps it is my anger that has made me blind to the truth for so long. I see it now, this day has made it all too clear.
You're better than me Kakarot. You are the best. "
Then why did Vegeta slaughter over 200 innocent people at the WMAT? Simple... he did it to spite Goku and goad him into fighting him. If murdering hundreds of innocent people for the sake of a fight isn't an indication that Vegeta was full fledged evil bastard, I don't know what is.TheMikado wrote:Did you watch the Buu saga?? Babidi specifically orders Vegeta to kill everyone and Vegeta refuses and says he will only fight Goku. Vegeta had not yet slipped into full evil as recognized by his sacrifice against Buu.LuckyCat wrote:More evil? You mean instead of killing 200 innocent people he'd kill 200 innocent planets? But, I don't think this explanation works because Vegeta was ticked off at Goku later for holding back on him.The choice Goku makes not to use SSJ3 is the right one only due to the fact that it may have slipped Vegeta further into evil by seeing Goku surpass him yet again.
[/spoiler] That's what I was thinking of. Saiyans prefer stronger opponents, so this is at least consistent with Vegeta's character.Lord Beerus wrote:In the original Japanese version and in the manga, with the scenario of Vegeta finding out about SSJ3, Vegeta is just pissed he didn't go all out and refuses to fuse with him because of it.
