Unpopular DB opinions

[Lord Beerus]

In the original Japanese version and in the manga, with the scenario of Vegeta finding out about SSJ3, Vegeta is just pissed he didn't go all out and refuses to fuse with him because of it.

That's what I was thinking of. Saiyans prefer stronger opponents, so this is at least consistent with Vegeta's character.

Yeah. So this notion that if Vegeta saw Goku go SSJ3 that it would have thrown him way more into the deep end is bullshit. Vegeta wouldn't have cared. Hell, he would have welcomed it. Remember when Vegeta pulled out all the stops to make Cell perfect so that his battle against would be more of a challenge and interesting? That's the same Vegeta we see during his Majin phase.

[ekrolo2]

In the original Japanese version and in the manga, with the scenario of Vegeta finding out about SSJ3, Vegeta is just pissed he didn't go all out and refuses to fuse with him because of it.

That's what I was thinking of. Saiyans prefer stronger opponents, so this is at least consistent with Vegeta's character.

Yeah. So this notion that if Vegeta saw Goku go SSJ3 that it would have thrown him way more into the deep end is bullshit. Vegeta wouldn't have cared. Hell, he would have welcomed it. Remember when Vegeta pulled out all the stops to make Cell perfect so that his battle against would be more of a challenge and interesting? That's the same Vegeta we see during his Majin phase.

Vegeta only likes a challenge as long as he can still shit stomp the opposition any time he wants. The second things don't go his way he throws a major bitch fit whereas Goku just tries to figure out how to win some other way.

[Kanassa]

In the original Japanese version and in the manga, with the scenario of Vegeta finding out about SSJ3, Vegeta is just pissed he didn't go all out and refuses to fuse with him because of it.

That's what I was thinking of. Saiyans prefer stronger opponents, so this is at least consistent with Vegeta's character.

Yeah. So this notion that if Vegeta saw Goku go SSJ3 that it would have thrown him way more into the deep end is bullshit.

Also, when the fuck ever has Goku been shown to think that far ahead when it comes to people's reactions?

[TheMikado]

That's what I was thinking of. Saiyans prefer stronger opponents, so this is at least consistent with Vegeta's character.

Yeah. So this notion that if Vegeta saw Goku go SSJ3 that it would have thrown him way more into the deep end is bullshit.

Also, when the fuck ever has Goku been shown to think that far ahead when it comes to people's reactions?

Goku shows planning throughout Z, further Vegeta specifically says that Goku surpassing him infuriates him. There's nothing BS about it. Goku surpassing Vegeta has always and continues to piss Vegeta off.
At least it did until recently.

[Noah]

Then why did Vegeta slaughter over 200 innocent people at the WMAT? Simple... he did it to spite Goku and goad him into fighting him. If murdering hundreds of innocent people for the sake of a fight isn't an indication that Vegeta was full fledged evil bastard, I don't know what is.

So what? People were arguing in recent threads that even though Goku shows he cares for innocent people in the end he knows that he can fix everything with the Dragon Balls, I don't know how this situation would make he suddenly don't give a f*** about Vegeta and about himself using a transformation that he's not used to, with no guarantees that would be the best choice?

Yeah. So this notion that if Vegeta saw Goku go SSJ3 that it would have thrown him way more into the deep end is bullshit. Vegeta wouldn't have cared. Hell, he would have welcomed it. Remember when Vegeta pulled out all the stops to make Cell perfect so that his battle against would be more of a challenge and interesting? That's the same Vegeta we see during his Majin phase.

So would you expect that Majin Vegeta after being one-shoted by SSJ3 Goku would be all nice with after? "Oh darn, Kakarot has surpassed me again. All of that for nothing, well too bad, let's back to my family" seems legit.

[LuckyCat]

So would you expect that Majin Vegeta after being one-shoted by SSJ3 Goku would be all nice with after? "Oh darn, Kakarot has surpassed me again. All of that for nothing, well too bad, let's back to my family" seems legit.

I'd expect him to train and try to get SSJ3, just like he did when outclassed by SSJ2 and SSJ.

[Noah]

I'd expect him to train and try to get SSJ3, just like he did when outclassed by SSJ2 and SSJ.

Completely different situations, Vegeta felt humiliated that father and son had surpassed him, then even though he trained 7 years straight, he realized it wasn't enough to reach Goku's battle power. He ignored his pride in order to get a power-up from Babidi's magic to keep up with Goku, he killed innocent people to convince him to fight, after all that you really think Vegeta would recompose himself so easily after being outclassed again? He would freak out, I'm not talking about he suddenly wanting to destroy everything, but all he did through the years to this point meant for nothing, that is far more humiliating than Goku and Gohan surpassing him in the Cell arc.

[LuckyCat]

Completely different situations, Vegeta felt humiliated that father and son had surpassed him, then even though he trained 7 years straight, he realized it wasn't enough to reach Goku's battle power. He ignored his pride in order to get a power-up from Babidi's magic to keep up with Goku, he killed innocent people to convince him to fight, after all that you really think Vegeta would recompose himself so easily after being outclassed again? He would freak out, I'm not talking about he suddenly wanting to destroy everything, but all he did through the years to this point meant for nothing, that is far more humiliating than Goku and Gohan surpassing him in the Cell arc.

But saying that Vegeta will break down and become more villainous than Majin Vegeta is a big stretch. For all we know, Vegeta seeing the awe of SSJ3 might lead to his famous concession that Goku is #1 earlier. And again, your assumption ignores that Vegeta was angry with Goku for not going all out when they met later in the arc.

[Noah]

But saying that Vegeta will break down and become more villainous than Majin Vegeta is a big stretch. For all we know, Vegeta seeing the awe of SSJ3 might lead to his famous concession that Goku is #1 earlier. And again, your assumption ignores that Vegeta was angry with Goku for not going all out when they met later in the arc.

Probably not more villainous, but I don't see how after all his efforts being wasted would lead to him to solely admit Goku was the best as he did in the final act of the arc either. No, it doesn't, because what Goku did was for the best, Vegeta being pissed that he didn't used SSJ on their fight are just his Saiyans traits saying that he would like to fight his opponent with both using their full power ignoring the consenquences.

[Lord Beerus]

But saying that Vegeta will break down and become more villainous than Majin Vegeta is a big stretch. For all we know, Vegeta seeing the awe of SSJ3 might lead to his famous concession that Goku is #1 earlier. And again, your assumption ignores that Vegeta was angry with Goku for not going all out when they met later in the arc.

Probably not more villainous, but I don't see how after all his efforts being wasted would lead to him to solely admit Goku was the best as he did in the final act of the arc either. No, it doesn't, because what Goku did was for the best, Vegeta being pissed that he didn't used SSJ on their fight is just his Saiyans traits saying that he would like to fight his opponent with both using their full power ignoring the consenquences.

Except Goku did not do what was best at all. And Vegeta was acting absolutely in-character for getting pissed at Goku for holding back. Vegeta is still a Saiyan at the end of the day. If we're gonna start hand-waving Goku and Vegeta creating crisis's under the pretence of "just his Saiyan traits", then people have no right to be upset with anything Goku and Vegeta do in Super.

[Noah]

Except Goku did not do what was best at all. And Vegeta was acting absolutely in-character for getting pissed at Goku for holding back. Vegeta is still a Saiyan at the end of the day. If we're gonna start hand-waving Goku and Vegeta creating crisis's under the pretence of "just his Saiyan traits", then people have no right to be upset with anything Goku and Vegeta do in Super.

Did I mentioned Vegeta was out of character? No, I said he wanted fight Goku so much, that he ignored his pride, killed innocent people don't giving a f*** of what his family would thought about it, so yeah even considering he would probably freak out after being outclassed again after all the shit he did, he pretty much didn't give a f*** about the consequences. Like it or not what Goku did was for the best, he was trying to rationalize with Vegeta, telling him that all this "I did it because I want to be evil as I used to be" was a bunch of crap and he knew it. Goku is not stupid, he realized that Vegeta had changed through the years but still needed to solve this grudge he had between them and the idea of risking himself using a transformation he's not used to, didn't suit him well. Sorry but their bad characterization in Super has to nothing to do with their Saiyan traits, but to other factors like: exaggerating their personalities and inconsistent character writing.

[Lord Beerus]

Except Goku did not do what was best at all. And Vegeta was acting absolutely in-character for getting pissed at Goku for holding back. Vegeta is still a Saiyan at the end of the day. If we're gonna start hand-waving Goku and Vegeta creating crisis's under the pretence of "just his Saiyan traits", then people have no right to be upset with anything Goku and Vegeta do in Super.

Did I mentioned Vegeta was out of character? No, I said he wanted fight Goku so much, that he ignored his pride, killed innocent people don't giving a f*** of what his family would thought about it, so yeah even considering he would probably freak out after being outclassed again after all the shit he did, he pretty much didn't give a f*** about the consequences. Like it or not what Goku did was for the best, he was trying to rationalize with Vegeta, telling him that all this "I did it because I want to be evil as I used to be" was a bunch of crap and he knew it. Goku is not stupid, he realized that Vegeta had changed through the years but still needed to solve this grudge he had between them and the idea of risking himself using a transformation he's not used to, didn't suit him well. Sorry but their bad characterization in Super has to nothing to do with their Saiyan traits, but to other factors like: exaggerating their personalities and inconsistent character writing.

My point is Goku did not do the best thing in that scenario. He did the absolute worst thing and intentionally held back. Vegeta didn't appreciate it. And neither did the billions of people that died as a result of that decision. If Goku really understood Vegeta in that scenario, he would have turned SSJ3 in his fight against Vegeta. But he didn't. And Vegeta hated him for that. What Goku did was selfish and reckless. And it also goes to show he's a bad judge of character.

[ABED]

What amazes me is that many of you seem so quick to accept the idea that he would hold back. Doesn't that seem out of character to any of you?

[Noah]

My point is Goku did not do the best thing in that scenario. He did the absolute worst thing and intentionally held back. Vegeta didn't appreciate it. And neither did the billions of people that died as a result of that decision. If Goku really understood Vegeta in that scenario, he would have turned SSJ3 in his fight against Vegeta. But he didn't. And Vegeta hated him for that.

How worst? In the end they defeated Majin Boo, Vegeta solved his issues and both he and Goku were back to live with their families again. Vegeta didn't appreciate it, but did he in the end refused to fuse with Goku in order to defeat the monster who murdered their families and was about to destroy the planet they live? No, and about these "billions" of people that died they got revived, so I don't see what's the matter. Goku did understood, that if he got one chance to one-shot Vegeta something that would lead the latter to give himself in anger and then returning to the Afterlife not predicting what Vegeta could do after would not be the best deal. Vegeta hated him for that, but that didn't last long after all.

What amazes me is that many of you seem so quick to accept the idea that he would hold back. Doesn't that seem out of character to any of you?

How so? If Goku had plain said he could transform into SSJ3 anytime he wanted, then I would be on the fence right now, but he strictly said it was a form he wasn't used to yet, that had a time limit to how long he could transform and etc.

Goku was planning to defeat Vegeta with SSJ2, but seeing Vegeta having the same form and yet similar battle power, he knew it could take long but he was confident he could defeat him without risking himself.

[ABED]

Forget what he said. When did Goku ever hold back against a villain to spare their feelings? And if Goku really wanted a good fight then why would he fight Vegeta? If he can turn Super Saiyan 3, Vegeta's not a challenge. What is he getting out of this? And why would he risk Buu being released? When has he ever allowed the villain to be released when he didn't intend to fight them again?

[Noah]

Forget what he said. When did Goku ever hold back against a villain to spare their feelings? And if Goku really wanted a good fight then why would he fight Vegeta? If he can turn Super Saiyan 3, Vegeta's not a challenge. What is he getting out of this? And why would he risk Buu being released? When has he ever allowed the villain to be released when he didn't intend to fight them again?

And why you assume Goku saw Vegeta as a villain? In one of my posts in this thread I said: "Goku is not stupid, he realized that Vegeta had changed through the years but still needed to solve this grudge he had between them and the idea of risking himself using a transformation he's not used to, didn't suit him well." is not just about sparing his feelings, but that Goku probably knew his decision would be best for Bulma and Trunks too. We can't have an argument if you ignore character statements, Goku didn't turn SSJ3 because all the reasons I cited above, not going to repeat myself. Goku valued Vegeta as a challenge for him in SSJ2. What he got was Vegeta not having a grudge anymore, not be willing to harm innocent people in order to fight him and making him realize all he was full of crap saying all he did was because he wanted to be evil again. He didn't even know what Boo battle power could be, Vegeta even said that if Kaioshin was impressed with them dealing with a bunch of weak mooks, Majin Boo should not be a big deal either, Goku probably bought that idea before feeling the real power of the enemy.

[Lord Beerus]

My point is Goku did not do the best thing in that scenario. He did the absolute worst thing and intentionally held back. Vegeta didn't appreciate it. And neither did the billions of people that died as a result of that decision. If Goku really understood Vegeta in that scenario, he would have turned SSJ3 in his fight against Vegeta. But he didn't. And Vegeta hated him for that.

How worst? In the end they defeated Majin Boo, Vegeta solved his issues and both he and Goku were back to live with their families again. Vegeta didn't appreciate it, but did he in the end refused to fuse with Goku in order to defeat the monster who murdered their families and was about to destroy the planet they live? No, and about these "billions" of people that died they got revived, so I don't see what's the matter. Goku did understood, that if he got one chance to one-shot Vegeta something that would lead the latter to give himself in anger and then returning to the Afterlife not predicting what Vegeta could do after would not be the best deal. Vegeta hated him for that, but that didn't last long after all.

Goku understood jack-shit about the gravity of the situation. He held back when he shouldn't have, and in the process angered Vegeta and unleashed an ancient deity who would go on to kill everyone and destroy the Earth. With the latter case being something he was fully aware would happen. And It was pure good fortune that they defeated Majin Boo in the end. And if we're going by the logic that everybody was brought back to life in the end makes everything fine, then I guess we should have no issue at all with scenario of Goku using the Super Dragon Balls to wish back all the destroyed universes after the Tournament Of Power is over.

[Noah]

Goku understood jack-shit about the gravity of the situation. He held when he shouldn't have, and in the process angered Vegeta and unleashed an ancient deity who would go on to kill everyone and destroy the Earth. With the latter case being something he was fully aware would happen. And It was pure good fortune that they defeated Majin Boo in the end. And if we're going by the logic that everybody was brought back to life in the end, then I guess we should have no issue at all with scenario of Goku using the Super Dragon Balls to wish back all the destroyed universes after the Tournament Of Power is over.

He didn't understand at first because he didn't know what Majin Boo was as I said in a post above: "Vegeta even said that if Kaioshin was impressed with them dealing with a bunch of weak mooks, Majin Boo should not be a big deal either, Goku probably bought that idea before feeling the real power of the enemy." and that's another reason, why would Goku risk himself in a transformation he's not used to in an enemy he probably didn't know was worth it? He not acting impulsively was the best decision he made. Well, as a matter of fact we don't know how this current arc will end, we don't know if Universe 7 will be the winner after all, I hope of course for the not obvious ending (DB fixing everything again) as we fans are saturated of it, but let's see.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku understood jack-shit about the gravity of the situation. He held back when he shouldn't have, and in the process angered Vegeta and unleashed an ancient deity who would go on to kill everyone and destroy the Earth. With the latter case being something he was fully aware would happen. And It was pure good fortune that they defeated Majin Boo in the end. And if we're going by the logic that everybody was brought back to life in the end makes everything fine, then I guess we should have no issue at all with scenario of Goku using the Super Dragon Balls to wish back all the destroyed universes after the Tournament Of Power is over.

He didn't understand at first because he didn't know what Majin Boo was as I said in a post above: "Vegeta even said that if Kaioshin was impressed with them dealing with a bunch of weak mooks, Majin Boo should not be a big deal either, Goku probably bought that idea before feeling the real power of the enemy." and that's another reason, why would Goku risk himself in a transformation he's not used to in an enemy he probably didn't know was worth it? He not acting impulsively was the best decision he made. Well, as a matter of fact we don't know how this current arc will end, we don't know if Universe 7 will be the winner after all, I hope of course for the not obvious ending (DB fixing everything again) as we fans are saturated of it, but let's see.

Goku knew exactly what kind of person Majin Boo was as Kaioshin was constantly telling him all about how much of a monster Majin Boo was and along with how determined he was to prevent him from being resurrected. But Goku still chose to:
a) Purposely hold back against Vegeta when he shouldn't have and in the process resurrect Majin Boo
b) Not kill Majin Boo when he had the chance to and instead gamble that Goten and Trunks could take care of him
c) Refuse to fuse with Vegeta to easily defeat Kid Boo, even though at that stage Kid Boo had destroyed the world and everyone apart from Goku, Mr Satan and Dende was dead.

[Noah]

Goku knew exactly what kind of person Majin Boo was as Kaioshin was constantly telling him all about how much of a monster Majin Boo was and along with how determined he was to prevent him from being resurrected. But Goku still chose to:
a) Purposely hold back against Vegeta when he shouldn't have and in the process resurrect Majin Boo
b) Not kill Majin Boo when he had the chance to and instead gamble that Goten and Trunks could take care of him
c) Refuse to fuse with Vegeta to easily defeat Kid Boo, even though at that stage Kid Boo had destroyed the world and everyone apart from Goku, Mr Satan and Dende was dead.

Yes, he knew what kind of person Boo was, but he didn't knew about his power, how would he even measure? Vegeta actually had a point, if Kaioshin was all impressed with them effortlessly beating Babidi mooks, Majin Boo shouldn't be such a big deal either, Goku prefered to bet his money on it and even that he admited he could defeat Boo by himself we don't know how long this would take and if he could make in time. Well, even though all that happened because of him, Goku felt like the new generation could solve all this conflict, somewhat risky? Yes, but it could work. Refusing to fuse with Vegeta are they being prideful bastards thinking that they could have a chance defeating Majin Boo alone now that he became weaker than he was before. I agree that maybe the two last arcs of Dragon Ball were full of dumb decisions, but I always felt like that was something to show these characters are not flawless and that's what made the story somewhat interesting in my point of view.