The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[nickzambuto]

Was the faded Spirit Bomb Kuririn threw at Vegeta still stronger than Goku's KKx4 Kamehameha?

How powerful was the Spirit Bomb before fading?

It was nowhere close to Goku's x4 Kamehameha, it didn't even kill a severely weakened Vegeta who'd lost a lot of power. It was likely even weaker than Goku's regular Kamehameha. Vegeta lost a huge amount of power by the time it hit him:
1) He got his ass kicked by Kaioken x3 Goku and then took a direct hit from a x4 Kamehameha.

2) He lost some power when he created the power ball.

3) He was further weakened when his tail got chopped off.

By this point he was so weakened that even Gohan was able to put up a good fight against him.

I'd say pre-fading it'd be weaker than a Kaioken x2 Kamehameha since Goku says he lost about half.

But the Spirit Bomb before fading was intended to defeat Oozaru Vegeta? Whether or not it would have finished the job is unknown, but Goku seemed confident so I imagine it would have done some damage. It can't possibly be as weak as you're saying.

[dragon boss z]

Finial form King Cold (anime) V Perfect Cell.

I think that whatever King Cold's true power is, whether he can transform or not, it is at least somewhat less than the full power that Freeza was packing. One of the Daizenshuu (I forget which), describes Cold's strength as being somewhat inferior to Freeza's, and the pre-release stuff for Resurrection F says that Freeza is the only one of his family with such bottomless potential. He's definitely not a match for Perfect Cell/

[TheUltimateNinja]

But the Spirit Bomb before fading was intended to defeat Oozaru Vegeta? Whether or not it would have finished the job is unknown, but Goku seemed confident so I imagine it would have done some damage. It can't possibly be as weak as you're saying.

It has to be that weak, Goku said he lost around half of its power so at most it would be 2.5x stronger at full power. If it couldn't even kill Base Vegeta, Oozaru Vegeta who is 10x stronger would just tank it. Goku was confident but its feats contradict that.

[Gog]

Finial form King Cold (anime) V Perfect Cell.

I think that whatever King Cold's true power is, whether he can transform or not, it is at least somewhat less than the full power that Freeza was packing. One of the Daizenshuu (I forget which), describes Cold's strength as being somewhat inferior to Freeza's, and the pre-release stuff for Resurrection F says that Freeza is the only one of his family with such bottomless potential. He's definitely not a match for Perfect Cell/

This is the anime version, not the manga version. In the anime he was stated to be stronger than Mecha Freeza. Ridiculous I know, so if he transformed into the finial form could he beat Perfect Cell?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Finial form King Cold (anime) V Perfect Cell.

I think that whatever King Cold's true power is, whether he can transform or not, it is at least somewhat less than the full power that Freeza was packing. One of the Daizenshuu (I forget which), describes Cold's strength as being somewhat inferior to Freeza's, and the pre-release stuff for Resurrection F says that Freeza is the only one of his family with such bottomless potential. He's definitely not a match for Perfect Cell/

This is the anime version, not the manga version. In the anime he was stated to be stronger than Mecha Freeza. Ridiculous I know, so if he transformed into the finial form could he beat Perfect Cell?

No, he's weaker in the anime as well. They say that his power is higher than Freeza's in the manga as well, but Gohan says that's nothing compared to Freeza's real power. So Cold is stronger than suppressed Freeza but weaker than his full power.

[Gog]

I think that whatever King Cold's true power is, whether he can transform or not, it is at least somewhat less than the full power that Freeza was packing. One of the Daizenshuu (I forget which), describes Cold's strength as being somewhat inferior to Freeza's, and the pre-release stuff for Resurrection F says that Freeza is the only one of his family with such bottomless potential. He's definitely not a match for Perfect Cell/

This is the anime version, not the manga version. In the anime he was stated to be stronger than Mecha Freeza. Ridiculous I know, so if he transformed into the finial form could he beat Perfect Cell?

No, he's weaker in the anime as well. They say that his power is higher than Freeza's in the manga as well, but Gohan says that's nothing compared to Freeza's real power. So Cold is stronger than suppressed Freeza but weaker than his full power.

But we're talking about second form Cold here. And how powerful would his full power finial form be and would it be able to beat Perfect Cell?

[DanielSSJ]

This is the anime version, not the manga version. In the anime he was stated to be stronger than Mecha Freeza. Ridiculous I know, so if he transformed into the finial form could he beat Perfect Cell?

You are right. In the anime, when their ship was still on its way, King Cold's Ki was described as being larger than Freeza's. Then it is later stated by Gohan that the Ki that Freeza is currently emanating is just the tip of the iceberg and that he can get much stronger, just like the manga. And later, Freeza starts mouthing off to Trunks, saying that he's the most powerful person in the universe, and King Cold doesn't contest this, just like the manga. Based on that, anime King Cold is still probably weaker than Freeza, just like the manga.

But we're talking about second form Cold here. And how powerful would his full power finial form be and would it be able to beat Perfect Cell?

There's a lot we don't know about Freeza's race, or how their suppression forms work. Freeza describes them as something he created himself to keep his power in check. King Cold is older and overall less powerful than his son, so maybe he doesn't need three extra suppressed states to limit his power to a manageable level. Maybe he doesn't need any, and his natural state just resembles Freeza's second form. There's just a lot we don't know. We do know that Cold is overall weaker than his son, and the anime adding a throwaway line of Cold appearing stronger than what is probably 5% of Freeza's power doesn't change that.

Beyond all that, we also know that in another timeline, both Freeza and King Cold were killed by Goku. Unlike Trunks, who finished both of them off as soon as possible, Goku would've let the fight drag out a bit and would've encouraged them both to fight at full power. So King Cold most likely fought and lost to Goku at his full power, whether that involved a transformation or not, and there is no way in hell that Future Goku fought and won against a Perfect Cell level opponent. So in both the manga and anime continuity, Cold is at least comparable to Freeza.

[TheUltimateNinja]

This is the anime version, not the manga version. In the anime he was stated to be stronger than Mecha Freeza. Ridiculous I know, so if he transformed into the finial form could he beat Perfect Cell?

No, he's weaker in the anime as well. They say that his power is higher than Freeza's in the manga as well, but Gohan says that's nothing compared to Freeza's real power. So Cold is stronger than suppressed Freeza but weaker than his full power.

But we're talking about second form Cold here. And how powerful would his full power finial form be and would it be able to beat Perfect Cell?

King Cold says that if anyone can beat Freeza, they're the strongest in the universe. This means he can't be stronger than Freeza.

[Gog]

But we're talking about second form Cold here. And how powerful would his full power finial form be and would it be able to beat Perfect Cell?

There's a lot we don't know about Freeza's race, or how their suppression forms work. Freeza describes them as something he created himself to keep his power in check. King Cold is older and overall less powerful than his son, so maybe he doesn't need three extra suppressed states to limit his power to a manageable level. Maybe he doesn't need any, and his natural state just resembles Freeza's second form. There's just a lot we don't know. We do know that Cold is overall weaker than his son, and the anime adding a throwaway line of Cold appearing stronger than what is probably 5% of Freeza's power doesn't change that.

Honestly the idea that King Cold is in his apparent true form is complete and utter nonsense when you actually take time to see how the theory holds up. I'm just going to prove why it's wrong now.

Now the idea that King Cold is in his apparent true form, completely falls apart when you take time to see all of the finial forms of the Freeza family. And yes I know that they are non canon, but I'm using them as everything single one of them are designed by Akira Toriyama himself, so they hold a lot of weight.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Now there is always a consistent theme throughout the forms, no stripes, and no horns and none of those weird bumpy things that all of the lower forms have. And we can't even use the theory of Freeza being even more mutated than King Cold is. Because in the Saikyo Jump interview Akira Toriyama stated that Freeza inherited the mutant genes from King Cold. So his mutation is not more potent than King Cold's is.

Also custom made suppression forms died with the introduction of Frost, the more likely idea now is that the suppression forms function more as a genetic template that they can use.

But you've got a point Finial Form King Cold has no business going up against Perfect Cell.

How does Finial Form King Cold V Yadrat Goku sound?

[DanielSSJ]

<snip>

You admittedly have a point about all of the Freeza-type folks looking like Freeza's final form except for King Cold, though there's also the idea that if Toriyama intended for King Cold to be able to transform, he probably would have.
I'm not sure about how Frost proves that every single member of his race has the same exact forms. Frost is clearly supposed to be a counterpart of Freeza, so it makes sense that he'd have forms that are similar to Freeza's, but that doesn't really change how Freeza's forms are implied to be something he developed. In fact, Golden Freeza brings this idea back into the forefront, given how Freeza even says that he specifically made it gold to showcase his superiority.

How does Finial Form King Cold V Yadrat Goku sound?

As I already mentioned above, Future Goku probably killed King Cold and Freeza at the same time, at their full power to boot. So Present Yardrat Goku would still win one-on-one.

[nickzambuto]

But the Spirit Bomb before fading was intended to defeat Oozaru Vegeta? Whether or not it would have finished the job is unknown, but Goku seemed confident so I imagine it would have done some damage. It can't possibly be as weak as you're saying.

It has to be that weak, Goku said he lost around half of its power so at most it would be 2.5x stronger at full power. If it couldn't even kill Base Vegeta, Oozaru Vegeta who is 10x stronger would just tank it. Goku was confident but its feats contradict that.

Goku had to have been wrong either way.

On one hand, he thought the Spirit Bomb would be enough to finish off Oozaru Vegeta.
On the other hand, he claimed to have only lost half its power.

One way or the other, he was wrong, and there's no evidence pointing towards one or the other being a stronger possibility. Personally, I wouldn't want to diminish the Spirit Bomb's power, so if Goku has to be wrong on at least one account, I would say he was wrong when claiming he only lost half the power. It makes more sense that way too, harnessing the Spirit Bomb is supposed to take precise control, focus, and calm. When Vegeta blew Goku it's hard to imagine he hung onto any of the genki at all. Then with all the crushing and the agony, it just makes more sense that by the time Kuririn showed up, Goku only had a drop of the genki still in his hand.

I liken this to if I was holding a glass full of water. Somebody shoves me to the ground, I spill the cup and lose all the water. I might be lucky to have a bit remaining at the bottom of the glass, and maybe some droplets on the side. I sure as hell wouldn't have half the glass remaining.

That, OR the third possibility that you aren't considering which involves Goku being right on both accounts... as in, the Spirit Bomb was as strong or stronger than Oozaru Vegeta, AND he truly only lost half. This third possibility is... maybe Vegeta's just that fuckin tough. After all, everybody was shocked when he stood back up after the Spirit Bomb. It's not like they were expecting it. They thought he was a damn freak.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Goku had to have been wrong either way.

On one hand, he thought the Spirit Bomb would be enough to finish off Oozaru Vegeta.
On the other hand, he claimed to have only lost half its power.

One way or the other, he was wrong, and there's no evidence pointing towards one or the other being a stronger possibility. Personally, I wouldn't want to diminish the Spirit Bomb's power, so if Goku has to be wrong on at least one account, I would say he was wrong when claiming he only lost half the power. It makes more sense that way too, harnessing the Spirit Bomb is supposed to take precise control, focus, and calm. When Vegeta blew Goku it's hard to imagine he hung onto any of the genki at all. Then with all the crushing and the agony, it just makes more sense that by the time Kuririn showed up, Goku only had a drop of the genki still in his hand.

I liken this to if I was holding a glass full of water. Somebody shoves me to the ground, I spill the cup and lose all the water. I might be lucky to have a bit remaining at the bottom of the glass, and maybe some droplets on the side. I sure as hell wouldn't have half the glass remaining.

That, OR the third possibility that you aren't considering which involves Goku being right on both accounts... as in, the Spirit Bomb was as strong or stronger than Oozaru Vegeta, AND he truly only lost half. This third possibility is... maybe Vegeta's just that fuckin tough. After all, everybody was shocked when he stood back up after the Spirit Bomb. It's not like they were expecting it. They thought he was a damn freak.

Actually there's more pointing to him overestimating its power. He thought the diminished Genki Dama would be enough to kill Vegeta, but not only he did he survive, he still had enough strength left to keep fighting and would have killed them if Gohan didn't go Oozaru. He probably made the same error when he assumed the full power version would beat Oozaru Vegeta. And your third possibility doesn't really work since Oozaru Vegeta is 10x stronger than regular Vegeta, he'd easily tank the Genki Dama since he'd be at least 3x stronger, likely 4x.

[Bullza]

Resurrection F Piccolo vs Buu saga Super Saiyan Gohan.

[dragonball0900]

Resurrection F Piccolo vs Buu saga Super Saiyan Gohan.

I have Piccolo winning, since I do think that by this time he would have enough power to surpass Gohan. Though I don't think he surpassed Perfect Cell or Buu Saga Goku yet. Maybe he's at Buu Saga Vegeta level. Though Piccolo's power increases in Super are a mystery.

[Bullza]

Resurrection F Piccolo vs Buu saga Super Saiyan Gohan.

I have Piccolo winning, since I do think that by this time he would have enough power to surpass Gohan. Though I don't think he surpassed Perfect Cell or Buu Saga Goku yet. Maybe he's at Buu Saga Vegeta level. Though Piccolo's power increases in Super are a mystery.

It'd make sense for Piccolo to be stronger because he was the second choice for the Universe 6 Tournament instead of the kids who Vegeta told to get stronger if they wanted to be in it.

And the Daizenshuu said that Goten has strength not the least bit inferior to Gohan.

So Piccolo should be stronger but he definitely wasn't in the Buu saga so he'd have had to have powered up significantly and I don't know how much sense that would make.

[dragonball0900]

Resurrection F Piccolo vs Buu saga Super Saiyan Gohan.

I have Piccolo winning, since I do think that by this time he would have enough power to surpass Gohan. Though I don't think he surpassed Perfect Cell or Buu Saga Goku yet. Maybe he's at Buu Saga Vegeta level. Though Piccolo's power increases in Super are a mystery.

It'd make sense for Piccolo to be stronger because he was the second choice for the Universe 6 Tournament instead of the kids who Vegeta told to get stronger if they wanted to be in it.

And the Daizenshuu said that Goten has strength not the least bit inferior to Gohan.

So Piccolo should be stronger but he definitely wasn't in the Buu saga so he'd have had to have powered up significantly and I don't know how much sense that would make.

I'd think that Piccolo trained with more intensity after the Buu saga events. After all, previously there were like 7 full years of peace and I don't think he made that much gains during that time. These are my numbers for Piccolo:

Cell Saga Piccolo - 1,200,000,000

Buu Saga Piccolo - 1,700,000,000

Battle of Gods Piccolo - 2,600,000,000

Resurrection of Frieza Piccolo - 4,000,000,000

Piccolo should probably had trained with even more intensity in the gap between BOG and ROF, maybe because of all the events occuring around there. It would make sense with the statements we get about his power in relation to other characters.

[floofychan333]

Nail (Freeza arc) vs Yamcha (Cell arc)

[dragonball0900]

Nail (Freeza arc) vs Yamcha (Cell arc)

I have Yamcha defeating Nail with ease. He should be much stronger at this point, having trained for the Androids arc during 3 years.

[apex_pretador]

Resurrection F Piccolo vs Buu saga Super Saiyan Gohan.

I have Buu arc piccolo and SS Gohan about even. So, RoF piccolo wins due to almost equal stats, better fighting skills, smarts and techniques.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Resurrection F Piccolo vs Buu saga Super Saiyan Gohan.

I have Buu arc piccolo and SS Gohan about even. So, RoF piccolo wins due to almost equal stats, better fighting skills, smarts and techniques.

Buu Arc Piccolo? He's far weaker than SSJ Gohan. Perhaps you mean Resurrection F Piccolo?