Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZ Macky]

Goku and Vegeta were hard enough to decipher, but Gohan has far surpassed both of them... in the field of inconsistent feats.

1. He can increase his power by going SS. What's up with that? Why didn't he transform against Evil Boo then?

2. He lost SS2 and "Ultimate" in RoF, yet his base is stronger than Piccolo. What the fuck? How is his base stronger than before? And does his SS form multiply that absurdly huge base by 50x? Not to mention the ton of misinformation regarding Tagoma being "comparable to his best".

3. He's suddenly strong enough to fight on par with, or maybe even a little bit stronger than Super Saiyan Goku. Previously, he was defeated by First Form Freeza and now he's stronger than someone who's 50x as strong as Final Form Freeza? That's more than a 10,000x gain in power. This makes the idea of Base Gotenks > SS3 Goku sound cute.

4. When he's completely healthy, all of his attacks are easily dodged by Lavenda. Yet when he's poisoned and blinded, he has what appears to be a clear advantage over the same damn opponent.

Seriously, what the fuck Toei? How strong is Gohan? Make up your mind.

[ZombieVito]

Goku and Vegeta were hard enough to decipher, but Gohan has far surpassed both of them... in the field of inconsistent feats.

1. He can increase his power by going SS. What's up with that? Why didn't he transform against Evil Boo then?

2. He lost SS2 and "Ultimate" in RoF, yet his base is stronger than Piccolo. What the fuck? How is his base stronger than before? And does his SS form multiply that absurdly huge base by 50x? Not to mention the ton of misinformation regarding Tagoma being "comparable to his best".

3. He's suddenly strong enough to fight on par with, or maybe even a little bit stronger than Super Saiyan Goku. Previously, he was defeated by First Form Freeza and now he's stronger than someone who's 50x as strong as Final Form Freeza? That's more than a 10,000x gain in power. This makes the idea of Base Gotenks > SS3 Goku sound cute.

4. When he's completely healthy, all of his attacks are easily dodged by Lavenda. Yet when he's poisoned and blinded, he has what appears to be a clear advantage over the same damn opponent.

Seriously, what the fuck Toei? How strong is Gohan? Make up your mind.

1.- Ultimate is a different form with it's own multiplier.
2.- I have my doubts about this. If Gohan's base is truly stronger than Piccolo then why did the latter fight Tagoma alone? And weighted?
3.- Final form Freeza is way stronger than Super Saiyan Goku from the U6 arc.
4.- Gohan was fucking around at the beginning? This doesn't look like a big issue to me.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

That's all assumption though. They never said he was fighting with some unknown fraction of Super Saiyan God's power. Nothing in the whole franchise has ever said that Post BoG Goku was only fighting with a portion of that power. All that was said is that the power fully merged with him, it was running through him and so he didn't get weaker.

The only thing that changed was that the God Ki aura was gone, his strength did not change at all and that's why Goku thought he was still fighting at that same 100% until he was told to look at himself.

No different from the movie where Goku didn't notice a change after SSJG disappearing, retained the God power, yet SSJG still remained the supreme power.
He was not using all of it despite retaining all the power, hence him not having any God ki and Beerus' statement. The only similarity is that both are using Super Saiyan God's power.

Because like I said Super Saiyan Blue is the only thing that truly surpassed Super Saiyan Gods power. All Base and Super Saiyan Goku did was surpass his power whilst he was a Super Saiyan God but his strength still all comes from it.

Except that's not what it says. Super Saiyan Blue comes from the power of Super Saiyan God, so you're not making any sense. BOG SSJG Goku, whom is a Super Saiyan God, was not surpassed until Super Saiyan Blue was used.

No it isn't because if he wasn't poisoned and did the strongest Kamehameha he could it would have been much more powerful than the one he actually used. That would have been the limits of Super Saiyans power. Nobody said anything about his limits for these obvious reasons, that's just something you came up with by yourself. It is a terrible example.

All of your arguments are things you're just making up. Like Goku magically changing in power throughout the series.

Was Gohan holding back? No
Did he lose the beam struggle? Yes
Was he out of ki? No

The poison weakening him is completely irrelevant.

Well no all that would mean is he used up all his Ki during the final Ki punch where he defused right afterward then.

No since the Final Kamehameha was stated to use all of it.

Yet Vegeta became a Super Saiyan God and did no such ritual so no it isn't what Toriyama is referring to. Vegeta trained with Whis to become as strong as Super Saiyan God. When Goku arrived on Beerus' planet he said Vegeta's Ki had a different quality to it, Goku was about as strong as Vegeta because he'd got that power inside him already.

Toriyama gave a simple explanation, he absorbed the power so he doesn't need to transform into it because as the Resurrection F manga showed he's already got that power anyway. You're looking for something in his comment that's not there.

Doesn't even address my point. Goku already had the power, so he didn't need the ritual which was the only known way to transform into Super Saiyan God. ROF has nothing to do with anything.

Goku transformed into SSJG in the movie itself and it increased his power, so once again your wrong.

And yet they obviously have done by not having it be a separate form that's appeared since.

It not appearing isn't evidence of anything. Goku says that he can use it, so he can. It's that simple. The anime, manga and the movies don't operate any differently. You being too biased to admit it is inconsequential. There isn't any reason why the producers would have to constantly spoon feed you something that's blatantly obvious.

Of course. SSJ Goku was as strong as he because of whatever God power he had inside him. Base Goku was stronger because he had a higher level of that God power inside him.

There is no "Goku was stronger in general". That after Beerus he only had access to a percentage of that power is completely false and never said in any interview or shown in the movies, manga's or the anime. Beerus was saying that Goku had grown much stronger and was going to fight him, all that means is that he was stronger than when he last fought him, no over complicated reason, just that reason.

As usual, you're making that up. Base Goku was never stated to be stronger than SSJ Goku. You took a statement of Goku surpassing his limits throughout the fight and stretched it to the extreme to make a claim that he kept doing so because "it looked like he did".

Yeah, Goku was stronger than before. He possessed Super Saiyan Blue, which surpassed his previous SSJG level. Your assertion of Beerus only referring to Base Goku instead of Goku as a whole makes zero sense.

Which again is based on nothing and the opposite of what was said and shown. Beerus said he was stronger, Goku and Vegeta were powerful enough to survive being blasted by Beerus' unrestrained Ki, Gohan couldn't even see Goku fighting Frieza but had no problem seeing SSJG Goku fighting Beerus. Goku said he was a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God which just means he's as strong as Super Saiyan God not some other reason you need to go looking for to find some other meaning to his simple comment.

Super Saiyan Blue is the only thing that surpasses God because SSJ Goku vs Beerus, Base Goku vs Beerus and Base Goku vs Frieza are all only as strong as the Super Saiyan God power inside him.

Goku saying that he possesses Super Saiyan God's power doesn't put Base Goku on SSJG Goku's level at all. It just means that he has the power. You're the one stretching the statement.
I don't feel like fact checking your claim on Gohan seeing SSJG Goku, but not seeing Goku vs Freeza, but it's not like it matters since Ultimate Gohan>ROF Gohan.

That's current Base Goku. Base Goku during the Universe 6, Future Trunks and Universe Survival saga's isn't even close to God level even as a Super Saiyan 3. The last episode only mentioned him being at the level of Gods after he turned Blue.

Nah, you're never going to stop treating your own conjecture as fact, so this is the last post. This has gone nowhere because once again, you keep making things up then trying to write them off as "Toei changing their mind" even though you don't work for them, so you wouldn't know anything of the sort. Current Base Goku is the strongest version of Base Goku and nothing says that he magically got weaker just because you want him to be.

[DBZ Macky]

1.- Ultimate is a different form with it's own multiplier.
2.- I have my doubts about this. If Gohan's base is truly stronger than Piccolo then why did the latter fight Tagoma alone? And weighted?
3.- Final form Freeza is way stronger than Super Saiyan Goku from the U6 arc.
4.- Gohan was fucking around at the beginning? This doesn't look like a big issue to me.

1. But Ultimate is simply Gohan's full powered base, isn't it?
2. I found it stupid too. Gotenks didn't transform at all versus Beerus, Piccolo charged at him without removing his weights. Sure, there can't be a huge gap between weighted and unweighted Piccolo.
3. What? Final Form Freeza was losing to base Goku. SS Goku would be 50x stronger, wouldn't he?
4. After telling his father to see how strong he's become? I don't think he was simply "fucking around". He was clearly unable to hit Lavenda at first.

[ekrolo2]

1.- Ultimate is a different form with it's own multiplier.

Ultimate isn't a form, it's all your power becoming available in Base. While Goku, Vegeta, and the others need copious transformations to power themselves up, Gohan just has that power always available to him. It's not a form with a multiplier or a transformation: it's meant to get rid of pointless transformations entirely by making you as strong as you can be in your regular state of being.

[ZombieVito]

1.- Ultimate is a different form with it's own multiplier.
2.- I have my doubts about this. If Gohan's base is truly stronger than Piccolo then why did the latter fight Tagoma alone? And weighted?
3.- Final form Freeza is way stronger than Super Saiyan Goku from the U6 arc.
4.- Gohan was fucking around at the beginning? This doesn't look like a big issue to me.

1. But Ultimate is simply Gohan's full powered base, isn't it?
2. I found it stupid too. Gotenks didn't transform at all versus Beerus, Piccolo charged at him without removing his weights. Sure, there can't be a huge gap between weighted and unweighted Piccolo.
3. What? Final Form Freeza was losing to base Goku. SS Goku would be 50x stronger, wouldn't he?
4. After telling his father to see how strong he's become? I don't think he was simply "fucking around". He was clearly unable to hit Lavenda at first.

1.- It's the only thing that makes sense. If Super Saiyan adds to Ultimate then Gohan should have used it against Buutenks, become 50 times stronger and kill him.
2.- That + Ginyu telling Gohan that he has puny power tells me he was just his normal Boo arc self in terms of power.
3.- Goku was a Saiyan beyond God there.
4.- I don't see why not. It's not really an issue to be honest.

[LowRyder2005]

I think Gohan's base is actually an issue which will mitigate itself a few weeks from now: we know for sure that "Ultimate" Gohan is supposed to make an appearance in this particular arc. So the question becomes: has he appeared yet? We'll have to see if he fights with a powerful base to tackle a specific opponent or not.

My take: was he Ultimate against Lavenda? No. One doesn't even to need to take the guides, which go on in detail about how his Chou state surpasses all the regular Super Saiyan forms (after all, it could have been retconned or altered in some way); however, comparing Gohan's fight to the only time his Ultimate state made a clearer appearance, Gohan fights with basically no aura until he goes Super Saiyan. The white aura makes a brief appearance, but for all reasons and purposes, Gohan may be fighting in an unpowered state. If that was the case it wouldn't bode well with the idea that he's Ultimate or, more precisely, fighting with a power on par with that of his Ultimate form.

Go at the end, when Gohan gets one-shotted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPgvB3wlj08

0.41: (in all likelihood) "Ultimate" Gohan in the new OP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5WrsEbT4tc

Then there's the opening. You clearly see a "powered up" Gohan with the white aura and even some sparks. Both look like heavy suggestions, to me, that we have yet to see Gohan in a fully powered state and that he will appear like he does in the intro at some point before this arc ends.
Otherwise, for proponents of the theory that Gohan was Ultimate, one needs only wait for the non-appearance of a Gohan with the white aura; or Super Saiyan Gohan outperforming that very Gohan.
To sum it up (or rather, reiterate?), I'm pretty convinced we will have a clearer picture in a short time. Both sides have as usual some pertinent evidence.

[Bullza]

He was not using all of it despite retaining all the power, hence him not having any God ki and Beerus' statement. The only similarity is that both are using Super Saiyan God's power.

Nothing whatsoever said that he wasn't using all of that power, he either doesn't use any of the power or he uses all of it. He's never been said to use just a certain amount of it.

Him God Ki has zero to do with his power and Beerus' statement meant nothing when moments later he said "this is the power of Super Saiyan God".

Super Saiyan Blue comes from the power of Super Saiyan God, so you're not making any sense.

Super Saiyan Blue is just Base Goku with the power of Super Saiyan God turning into a Super Saiyan. That was literally all it was ever supposed to be. It surpasses Super Saiyan God like they said.

Base Goku just has Super Saiyan God's power, he doesn't surpass it.

The poison weakening him is completely irrelevant.

I really don't understand how you aren't getting this. The poison was weakening him therefore the Kamehameha that he fired was the not the best Kamehameha that he could possibly fire hence it was not the limit of Super Saiyan Gohans power hence why nobody ever uttered the word limit during that fight.

No since the Final Kamehameha was stated to use all of it.

That was stated nowhere at any point.

They did the Kamehameha,they did the punch, they defused and Gowasu said "They've used up the power to sustain the fusion!". So the punch used up the last bit of his power not the Kamehameha.

Goku transformed into SSJG in the movie itself and it increased his power, so once again your wrong.

And the anime didn't have transform back into Super Saiyan God instead of Base Goku destroy the same blast so to appear more consistent with what Toriyama said and the fact it wasn't needed anymore.

It not appearing isn't evidence of anything. Goku says that he can use it, so he can.

Of course he can use it, he uses it in his Base form. He can't transform into though because they'd already said the power had fully merged with him and Toriyama said he doesn't need to transform into anymore.

Obviously if it could have been used it would as it's more merchandise to sell.

He can transform into it in the manga because he never absorbed it to begin with.

Base Goku was never stated to be stronger than SSJ Goku. You took a statement of Goku surpassing his limits throughout the fight and stretched it to the extreme to make a claim that he kept doing so because "it looked like he did".

It's not extreme, he surpassed himself time and time again and just kept doing so until the end, what's so extreme about that when Beerus and Goku still kept talking about his limits? Base Goku did something SSJ Goku didn't.

Yeah, Goku was stronger than before. He possessed Super Saiyan Blue, which surpassed his previous SSJG level.

Nothing said he has Super Saiyan Blue at the time that it was said. He could have very easily have obtained that power when they were thrown into the staff in the place filled with God Ki.

Goku saying that he possesses Super Saiyan God's power doesn't put Base Goku on SSJG Goku's level at all. It just means that he has the power. You're the one stretching the statement.

No you're just assuming that even though they said he had that power, was said to have surpassed the level of Gods, Beerus said he was much stronger and there was a very blatant image in the manga that showed it.....

You're saying "Nah he's only got a portion of that power". Something not said or implied amongst version of these events or any interviews or any anything ever.

This has gone nowhere because once again, you keep making things up then trying to write them off as "Toei changing their mind" even though you don't work for them, so you wouldn't know anything of the sort.

It's just common sense. Toei made Base Goku as strong as God because that's how it was in the movie they were making an adaptation of. Toriyama though obviously changed so he never actually absorbed that power and that's why he can still transform into Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God.

In the Resurrection F saga Base Goku is hundreds of times stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan. In the very next saga he's weaker than Piccolo.

[DBZ Macky]

Snip

Completely agree with you. That just leaves the problem of Gohan's base being stronger than Piccolo.
How is Gohan stronger than Piccolo just in base. Does Toei go with the idea of Boo Arc Saiyans > Piccolo?
Or is it because of some left-over "Ultimate" power, in which case, would the 50x multiplier stack on top of it?

[TheGreatSaiyaman]

Snip

Completely agree with you. That just leaves the problem of Gohan's base being stronger than Piccolo.
How is Gohan stronger than Piccolo just in base. Does Toei go with the idea of Boo Arc Saiyans > Piccolo?
Or is it because of some left-over "Ultimate" power, in which case, would the 50x multiplier stack on top of it?

I feel like the only way to explain this would be to say he has some left-over Ultimate... or maybe, just maybe his base is literally that strong, which makes you wonder why he didn't absolutely ruin Lavender? It's just confusing now Plus, when he gets his full Ultimate state back, how strong will he be? He's already 3rd strongest...(he's just rusty & Buu is magical), so there's not going to be much progression unless he goes way beyond the limits of the Ultimate 'state'.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

He was not using all of it despite retaining all the power, hence him not having any God ki and Beerus' statement. The only similarity is that both are using Super Saiyan God's power.

Nothing whatsoever said that he wasn't using all of that power, he either doesn't use any of the power or he uses all of it. He's never been said to use just a certain amount of it.

Him God Ki has zero to do with his power and Beerus' statement meant nothing when moments later he said "this is the power of Super Saiyan God".

Super Saiyan Blue comes from the power of Super Saiyan God, so you're not making any sense.

Super Saiyan Blue is just Base Goku with the power of Super Saiyan God turning into a Super Saiyan. That was literally all it was ever supposed to be. It surpasses Super Saiyan God like they said.

Base Goku just has Super Saiyan God's power, he doesn't surpass it.

The poison weakening him is completely irrelevant.

I really don't understand how you aren't getting this. The poison was weakening him therefore the Kamehameha that he fired was the not the best Kamehameha that he could possibly fire hence it was not the limit of Super Saiyan Gohans power hence why nobody ever uttered the word limit during that fight.

No since the Final Kamehameha was stated to use all of it.

That was stated nowhere at any point.

They did the Kamehameha,they did the punch, they defused and Gowasu said "They've used up the power to sustain the fusion!". So the punch used up the last bit of his power not the Kamehameha.

Goku transformed into SSJG in the movie itself and it increased his power, so once again your wrong.

And the anime didn't have transform back into Super Saiyan God instead of Base Goku destroy the same blast so to appear more consistent with what Toriyama said and the fact it wasn't needed anymore.

It not appearing isn't evidence of anything. Goku says that he can use it, so he can.

Of course he can use it, he uses it in his Base form. He can't transform into though because they'd already said the power had fully merged with him and Toriyama said he doesn't need to transform into anymore.

Obviously if it could have been used it would as it's more merchandise to sell.

He can transform into it in the manga because he never absorbed it to begin with.

Base Goku was never stated to be stronger than SSJ Goku. You took a statement of Goku surpassing his limits throughout the fight and stretched it to the extreme to make a claim that he kept doing so because "it looked like he did".

It's not extreme, he surpassed himself time and time again and just kept doing so until the end, what's so extreme about that when Beerus and Goku still kept talking about his limits? Base Goku did something SSJ Goku didn't.

Yeah, Goku was stronger than before. He possessed Super Saiyan Blue, which surpassed his previous SSJG level.

Nothing said he has Super Saiyan Blue at the time that it was said. He could have very easily have obtained that power when they were thrown into the staff in the place filled with God Ki.

Goku saying that he possesses Super Saiyan God's power doesn't put Base Goku on SSJG Goku's level at all. It just means that he has the power. You're the one stretching the statement.

No you're just assuming that even though they said he had that power, was said to have surpassed the level of Gods, Beerus said he was much stronger and there was a very blatant image in the manga that showed it.....

You're saying "Nah he's only got a portion of that power". Something not said or implied amongst version of these events or any interviews or any anything ever.

This has gone nowhere because once again, you keep making things up then trying to write them off as "Toei changing their mind" even though you don't work for them, so you wouldn't know anything of the sort.

It's just common sense. Toei made Base Goku as strong as God because that's how it was in the movie they were making an adaptation of. Toriyama though obviously changed so he never actually absorbed that power and that's why he can still transform into Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God.

In the Resurrection F saga Base Goku is hundreds of times stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan. In the very next saga he's weaker than Piccolo.

Assumption after assumption after assumption. When you get a written statement from Toriyama or Toei that they "changed their mind" and that Goku using SSJG in the movie was a mistake, then your argument may have some merit.
Until then, your argument remains an assumption unless Toei asks you to speak on their behalf.

Base Goku+Super Saiyan=Super Saiyan Blue? Come on now, this is garbage. Already debunked by every single instance of him turning into a normal Super Saiyan, especially during BOG after he loses SSJG where he once again becomes a basic Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan Blue after becoming a Saiyan Beyond God. Somehow you think your theory overrides what's actually shown.
Super Saiyan Red(the transformation itself with divine ki, not a "god-powered base form")+Super Saiyan=Super Saiyan Blue

The rest of your post is honestly nonsense, since you're constantly restating the same things over and over again that was already countered because you keep cropping out parts of my rebuttal. You don't have anything actually productive to say, just your theories, so this can't go any farther.

[DBZ Macky]

Yeah, we'll just have to be patient I guess.

3.- Final form Freeza is way stronger than Super Saiyan Goku from the U6 arc.

Even if we go by the two-base theory, Goku still got 10x as strong as before. So the gap between Gohan and Goku would still be tremendous.

Speaking of which, this is how one could explain the ridiculous power-scaling of the Goku Black arc. Perhaps Goku and Vegeta just improved their SSB forms?
1. They can't get the "Zenkai boosts" anymore (Supported by the Daizenshuu), yet Goku is depicted to be 10x stronger than his U6 arc incarnation.
2. Vegeta said that Goku and him didn't improve much in the time chamber, yet he emerges way stronger than before this time.

So maybe Vegeta just worked on a method of increasing Super Saiyan Blue's multiplier. And then Goku, being Goku, managed to pick up on that method and increased his Super Saiyan Blue's power too? It would certainly explain how Goku was able to perform better than Vegeta against Merged Zamasu.

[Lord Frieza]

Why is RoF FF Frieza stronger then U6 SS Goku? Not to sound rude here but you have actually watched the RoF movie and/or Arc right? Because base Goku kicks final form Frieza's ass.

If your talking about comparing him with Frost's Final Form then your wrong there to because Frost was powerful enough to hold his ground against a casual SS Goku, something Frieza could not have done in that form.

[Bullza]

When you get a written statement from Toriyama or Toei that they "changed their mind" and that Goku using SSJG in the movie was a mistake, then your argument may have some merit.

I don't need that. You can see it's true. Toriyama said that he doesn't need to transform into God again after he'd absorbed it's power. A mistake they corrected for the anime version by not having that happen, just as they'd corrected other mistakes from the movies.

In the manga he didn't absorb God, that's just plain fact. It wasn't show or said that he had. He can still transform into it unlike the anime.

Toriyama saying there's no need for him to turn into a SSJG and then SSJG being brought back in the manga is him changing his mind.

Base Goku+Super Saiyan=Super Saiyan Blue?

No Base Goku with the power of Super Saiyan God inside him turning Super Saiyan equals Super Saiyan Blue. That's exactly the explanation that was said.

Therefore Base Goku without the power of Super Saiyan God turning Super Saiyan equals the ordinary Super Saiyan. That's why that Base Goku was weaker than Piccolo like he always was.

I've already explained this over and over and you still keep misunderstanding it which just makes me have to keep saying the same thing. So once again and I'll make this as clear as I possibly can.

There's the same old Base Goku. He turns Super Saiyan and he's got Yellow hair. These Super Saiyan forms are not nearly as strong as Super Saiyan God as the manga has made abundantly clear.

Then there's this "Saiyan Beyond God" Goku who is as strong as Super Saiyan God because he's absorbed that power. When he turns Super Saiyan he's got Blue hair.

SSJB > SBG = SSJG > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ > Base

It is no more complicated than that.

[The gr]

Why is RoF FF Frieza stronger then U6 SS Goku? Not to sound rude here but you have actually watched the RoF movie and/or Arc right? Because base Goku kicks final form Frieza's ass.

If your talking about comparing him with Frost's Final Form then your wrong there to because Frost was powerful enough to hold his ground against a casual SS Goku, something Frieza could not have done in that form.

seconded,i mean u6 base and Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta are way stronger than rof Base frieza,by training 3 years at the hyperbolic time chamber,I could go far by saying ssgss Goku and Vegeta≥≥≥golden frieza,so final form and assault form frost≥base frieza in rof

[Bullza]

Why is RoF FF Frieza stronger then U6 SS Goku? Not to sound rude here but you have actually watched the RoF movie and/or Arc right? Because base Goku kicks final form Frieza's ass.

Because Final Form Frieza was roughly as strong as Base Goku when he had the power of Super Saiyan God making Final Form Frieza essentially God level. He was hundreds of times stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan.

Meanwhile as the manga shows Super Saiyan God is far above any of the regular Super Saiyan forms so they aren't God level. They're basically just at a similar enough level to what they were in the Buu saga which is why Piccolo is able to give Final Form Frost so much trouble.

This is where that whole Saiyan Beyond God thing comes into it. The Base Goku who fought Frieza is not the same as the Base Goku who fought Botamo and Frost.

[The gr]

Why is RoF FF Frieza stronger then U6 SS Goku? Not to sound rude here but you have actually watched the RoF movie and/or Arc right? Because base Goku kicks final form Frieza's ass.

Because Final Form Frieza was roughly as strong as Base Goku when he had the power of Super Saiyan God making Final Form Frieza essentially God level. He was hundreds of times stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan.

Meanwhile as the manga shows Super Saiyan God is far above any of the regular Super Saiyan forms so they aren't God level. They're basically just at a similar enough level to what they were in the Buu saga which is why Piccolo is able to give Final Form Frost so much trouble.

This is where that whole Saiyan Beyond God thing comes into it. The Base Goku who fought Frieza is not the same as the Base Goku who fought Botamo and Frost.

But does that applied to the anime, because it make sense for the manga,but for the anime I need some statements to prove that since both products are different continuity, and this Saiyan beyond god thing,is it canon or is just a headcanon, because I never heard about this in the series or in a guidebook

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

When you get a written statement from Toriyama or Toei that they "changed their mind" and that Goku using SSJG in the movie was a mistake, then your argument may have some merit.

I don't need that. You can see it's true. Toriyama said that he doesn't need to transform into God again after he'd absorbed it's power. A mistake they corrected for the anime version by not having that happen, just as they'd corrected other mistakes from the movies.

In the manga he didn't absorb God, that's just plain fact. It wasn't show or said that he had. He can still transform into it unlike the anime.

Toriyama saying there's no need for him to turn into a SSJG and then SSJG being brought back in the manga is him changing his mind.

Base Goku+Super Saiyan=Super Saiyan Blue?

No Base Goku with the power of Super Saiyan God inside him turning Super Saiyan equals Super Saiyan Blue. That's exactly the explanation that was said.

Therefore Base Goku without the power of Super Saiyan God turning Super Saiyan equals the ordinary Super Saiyan. That's why that Base Goku was weaker than Piccolo like he always was.

I've already explained this over and over and you still keep misunderstanding it which just makes me have to keep saying the same thing. So once again and I'll make this as clear as I possibly can.

There's the same old Base Goku. He turns Super Saiyan and he's got Yellow hair. These Super Saiyan forms are not nearly as strong as Super Saiyan God as the manga has made abundantly clear.

Then there's this "Saiyan Beyond God" Goku who is as strong as Super Saiyan God because he's absorbed that power. When he turns Super Saiyan he's got Blue hair.

SSJB > SBG = SSJG > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ > Base

It is no more complicated than that.

Complete delusion. Unless you're psychic and can read the minds of Toriyama and the Toei staff, it's an assumption, period. You're allowed to make a "theory" that you believe it was a mistake, but you rambling on about this "mistake" being irrefutable fact is next level idiocy.

You're claiming it's a mistake because you disagree with it. It doesn't go much farther than that, regardless of your hamster wheel justification which doesn't make any sense due to your "evidence" being circular logic. You are biased, unfathomably so and you don't even see it.

"Saiyan Beyond God" is just their normal base state after absorbing God and they were shown to turn into a basic Super Saiyan from that state as shown in BOG and every instance in Super where they use the basic Super Saiyan. You need to stop acting obtuse.
The line:

"It's a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God turning into a Super Saiyan"

says nothing about about Super Saiyan Blue being "a god-powered base form+Super Saiyan". Stretching the line to fit your agenda, but I'm not surprised considering the absurdity of your claims.

[Bullza]

But does that applied to the anime, because it make sense for the manga,but for the anime I need some statements to prove that since both products are different continuity

As far as I can recall there was nothing said that would prove it no. Nothing that suggested that he could freely tap into his Super Saiyan God power to achieve a stronger Base state or anything.

If it means anything at all though the Dragon Ball Heroes game does have Saiyan Beyond God as a transformation that Base Goku can turn into.

They are different continuities but it's still the only way it would make sense. Base Goku against Frieza was all but said to be much stronger than Buu. Buu is stronger than Piccolo. Piccolo would seem to be stronger than Base Cabba and he was on par with Base Vegeta whose as strong as Base Goku.

[Lord Frieza]

Why is RoF FF Frieza stronger then U6 SS Goku? Not to sound rude here but you have actually watched the RoF movie and/or Arc right? Because base Goku kicks final form Frieza's ass.

Because Final Form Frieza was roughly as strong as Base Goku when he had the power of Super Saiyan God making Final Form Frieza essentially God level. He was hundreds of times stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan.

Meanwhile as the manga shows Super Saiyan God is far above any of the regular Super Saiyan forms so they aren't God level. They're basically just at a similar enough level to what they were in the Buu saga which is why Piccolo is able to give Final Form Frost so much trouble.

This is where that whole Saiyan Beyond God thing comes into it. The Base Goku who fought Frieza is not the same as the Base Goku who fought Botamo and Frost.

But does that applied to the anime, because it make sense for the manga,but for the anime I need some statements to prove that since both products are different continuity, and this Saiyan beyond god thing,is it canon or is just a headcanon, because I never heard about this in the series or in a guidebook

It is as far as I can tell just a fan thing based on a card from Dragon Ball Heroes. Thats IT!

This whole thing was spawned by DB Heroes, you know the game that gives characters made up attacks and transformation! It might, MIGHT, have been a thing when RoF came out but Super has come along since then and just like that Beerus is a 10 and Whis is a 15 crap, it no longer exists anymore as Super has gone back to our heroes using SS form again.