Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

He uses the form itself, so he absorbed it. If he didn't absorb it, then he wouldn't be able to use it. If you can't understand something that simple, then that's your problem.

That's not the power fully merging with him so he's not weaker though.

The manga very obviously shows that Super Saiyan 3 and below don't hold a candle to Super Saiyan God's power. That is not how it was portrayed at all in the anime where he he didn't get any weaker as a Super Saiyan because they said the power was still running through him.

The manga has him transform into God to reach that power. The anime already has him with that power which is why he doesn't transform into it.

Why is that so complicated? You know Base Goku is hundreds of times stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan in the Resurrection F saga but then in the manga Base Goku is weaker than Piccolo and you think there's no difference even though it's staring you in the face?

[ZombieVito]

What do you guys think of this quick list I put up? It's a one-base list in which I dramatically lower the SSJ forms multipliers from RoF onwards. I still prefer the two-base theory as I think it makes more sense.

Multipliers:
SSJ - 5x
SSJ2 - 10x
SSJ3 - 40x
SSB - 100x

Spoiler:

Goku
Base - 50,000,000
SSJ - 2,500,000,000
SSJ2 - 5,000,000,000
SSJ3 - 20,000,000,000
SSG (Full Power) - 450,000,000,000
(SSG multiplier is 9000x)

Vegeta
Base - 45,000,000
SSJ - 2,250,000,000
SSJ2 - 4,500,000,000
FPSSJ2 - 90,000,000,000
(Vegeta's FPSSJ2 multiplier is 2,000x)

Gohan
Base - 20,000,000
SSJ - 1,000,000,000
Ultimate - 10,000,000,000

Majin Buu - 4,000,000,000

#18 - 350,000,000

Beerus
10% (vs Vegeta) - 100,000,000,000
50% (vs Goku) - 500,000,000,000
100% - 1,000,000,000,000
True Power - 10,000,000,000,000

Whis
True Power - 15,000,000,000,000

Spoiler:

Goku
Base - 5,000,000,000
SSB - 500,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base - 5,000,000,000
SSB - 500,000,000,000

Freezer
1st Form - 1,300,000,000
4th Form - 5,000,000,000
Golden - 600,000,000,000
Exhausted - 300,000,000,000 (Dropping)
(Golden Form is 120x of Freezer's 4th form)

Gohan
Base - 200,000,000
SSJ - 1,000,000,000

Freezer's Soldiers - Average of 100

Piccolo - 950,000,000
Tenshinan - 1,500,000
Krillin - 1,000,000
Master Roshi - 300
Jaco- 150

Spoiler:

U7

Whis - 15,000,000,000,000

Beerus - 10,000,000,000,000

Goku
Base - 6,000,000,000
SSJ - 30,000,000,000
SSB - 600,000,000,000
SSB + KKx2 - 1,200,000,000,000
SSB + KKx10 - 6,000,000,000,000

Vegeta

Base - 6,000,000,000
SSJ - 30,000,000,000
SSB - 600,000,000,000

Piccolo - 1,500,000,000

Majin Buu - 4,000,000,000

Monaka - 5


U6

Vados - ? 15,000,000,000,050

Champa - ? 9,999,999,999,950

Botamo - 5,000,000,000

Frost
1st Form - 5,200,000,000
Assault Form - 6,500,000,000
Final Form - 20,000,000,000

Otto Magetta - 40,000,000,000

Cabba
Base - 500,000,000
SSJ - 25,000,000,000,000

Hit - ???

Spoiler:

Present

Future Trunks
Base - 6,500,000,000
SSJ2 - 65,000,000,000

Black
Full Power - 250,000,000,000

Goku
Base - 6,000,000,000
SSJ2 - 60,000,000,000
SSJ3 - 240,000,000,000

Zamasu - 50,000,000,000


Future

Future Trunks (Post Training)
Base - 6,500,000,000
FPSSJ2 - 325,000,000,000
God Form - 975,000,000,000
(Trunks' FPSSJ2 multiplier is 50x. His God Form is 150x)

Vegeta
Base - 6,000,000,000
SSB - 600,000,000,000

Goku
Base- 6,000,000,000
SSB - 600,000,000,000
SSB (Rage) - 900,000,000,000

Vegeta (Rage + Training)
Base - 12,000,000,000
SSB - 1,200,000,000,000

Black (Goku boost)
Base - 500,000,000,000
SSR - 800,000,000,000
SSR (Full Power) - 1,000,000,000,000
SSR (Scythe) - 1,250,000,000,000
(Black is quite tricky. He never shows his full SSR power before Vegeta beats him after his training)

Future Zamasu - 350,000,000,000


Fusions

Goku
Base - 10,000,000,000
SSB - 1,000,000,000,000
SSB + KKx5 - 5,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base - 12,000,000,000
SSB - 1,200,000,000,000

Future Trunks (Rage)
Base - 8,000,000,000
God Form - 1,200,000,000,000

Merged Zamasu
Halo (1/8) - 4,000,000,000,000
Full Power - 24,000,000,000,000
Giant Form (1/2) - 12,000,000,000,000 (Decreasing)
(Potara multiplier is: [(A+B)] x 15)

Vegetto
Base - 220,000,000,000
SSB - 22,000,000,000,000
(Potara multiplier is: [(A+B)] x 10)

Spirit Sword Trunks - 12,000,000,000,000

Zamasu said Goku got dozens of times stronger when he turned Super Saiyan 2, so this doesn't work.

[Hugo Boss]

After Frieza transforms into his final form, Frieza asks Goku if he will transform into a super saiyan.

Goku's reply: Nah, I don't need to go that far.

This would imply that transforming into a Super Saiyan, would make him stronger than his God Base and not the other way around.

Either Goku was talking about ssgss or regular ssj... that's up to ya'll to decide.

If he was talking about regular ssj, this would mean Frost is stronger than Frieza, besides his Golden form.

Furthermore, the narrator said a form exceeding Super Saiyan God was needed to surpass the powered-up Freeza. So, you will have to decide if "powered-up" means his final or golden form too.

[Noah]

[spoiler]Freezer's Soldiers - Average of 100

Piccolo - 950,000,000
Tenshinan - 1,500,000
Krillin - 1,000,000
Master Roshi - 300
Jaco- 150[/spoiler]

I don't think Freeza's soldiers, Jaco and Roshi are that weak, I think is easy to put Jaco somewhat below Raditz and Roshi between 3000~4000 BP at least. Also I don't think the humans had reached the 1 million BP mark already and you have Tien above Krillin when the later was stated several times to be the strongest human.

[TheGreatSaiyaman]

I like to keep it simple; Base < SS < SS2 < SS3 < SSG < SSB. Anything else just confuses me, especially the two-base stuff, sorry! Even if there are loads of things that change, the scaling may be silly but this just seems natural to me. I just watch for fun though, so I don't really analyse it too critically

[TheUltimateNinja]

I like to keep it simple; Base < SS < SS2 < SS3 < SSG < SSB. Anything else just confuses me, especially the two-base stuff, sorry! Even if there are loads of things that change, the scaling may be silly but this just seems natural to me. I just watch for fun though, so I don't really analyse it too critically

The anime actually follows this more closely than the manga where SSJ2 > SSJ3.

[TheGreatSaiyaman]

I like to keep it simple; Base < SS < SS2 < SS3 < SSG < SSB. Anything else just confuses me, especially the two-base stuff, sorry! Even if there are loads of things that change, the scaling may be silly but this just seems natural to me. I just watch for fun though, so I don't really analyse it too critically

The anime actually follows this more closely than the manga where SSJ2 > SSJ3.

I'm not surprised, SS2 got some crazy boosts because of Vegeta and F. Trunks (let's not even get into SSR...) and now the power scale is all out of whack..that's why I keep it simple and refer to the anime, its much easier and less stressful

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

That's not the power fully merging with him so he's not weaker though.

The manga very obviously shows that Super Saiyan 3 and below don't hold a candle to Super Saiyan God's power. That is not how it was portrayed at all in the anime where he he didn't get any weaker as a Super Saiyan because they said the power was still running through him.

The manga has him transform into God to reach that power. The anime already has him with that power which is why he doesn't transform into it.

Why is that so complicated? You know Base Goku is hundreds of times stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan in the Resurrection F saga but then in the manga Base Goku is weaker than Piccolo and you think there's no difference even though it's staring you in the face?

If the power didn't merge with him, then he wouldn't be able to use it. None of your claims are making any sense, just like you saying that Goku can't become a basic Super Saiyan in the anime even though he already did. Can't accuse me of denial when you're saying things like that.

Don't know where you got the idea that Base Goku is weaker than Piccolo. Goku possesses the same exact power level in the manga and anime.

[ChiefWamsutta]

After Frieza transforms into his final form, Frieza asks Goku if he will transform into a super saiyan.

Goku's reply: Nah, I don't need to go that far.

This would imply that transforming into a Super Saiyan, would make him stronger than his God Base and not the other way around.

Either Goku was talking about ssgss or regular ssj... that's up to ya'll to decide.

If he was talking about regular ssj, this would mean Frost is stronger than Frieza, besides his Golden form.

Furthermore, the narrator said a form exceeding Super Saiyan God was needed to surpass the powered-up Freeza. So, you will have to decide if "powered-up" means his final or golden form too.

Hugo Boss, do you think you could give a spot in the episodes when the narrator said this? I'm curious, and I am having trouble finding it.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Has Base Goku's battle power surpassed 1 billion?

[ChiefWamsutta]

Has Base Goku's battle power surpassed 1 billion?

I have Base Goku (Universe Survival Saga) at Base Vegito (Buu Saga) power. He definitely has to have passed 1 billion.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Does Black Arc Vegetto have a lower multiplier than Buu Arc Vegetto? I have his current multiplier at only 10-20x Goku.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Does Black Arc Vegetto have a lower multiplier than Buu Arc Vegetto? I have his current multiplier at only 10-20x Goku.

Sadly, the true answer probably is that the multipliers that we so desperately cling to were not to be taken too seriously.

I do see the Potara Fusion being a power-up that has a logarithmic curve, to answer your question. It probably greatly boosted Goku and Vegeta since they were so weak in the Buu Saga. The effect probably isn't as strong for beings that reach the level they were at when they fought Merged Zamasu.

[emperior]

Does Black Arc Vegetto have a lower multiplier than Buu Arc Vegetto? I have his current multiplier at only 10-20x Goku.

Imo yes. I think it might be because Vegeta doesn't hate Goku and their rivalry is different than it was back then, so the potara boost would be lower.

[Bullza]

If the power didn't merge with him, then he wouldn't be able to use it. None of your claims are making any sense, just like you saying that Goku can't become a basic Super Saiyan in the anime even though he already did. Can't accuse me of denial when you're saying things like that.

He can use it SSJG by transforming into it. Nothing like how it's portrayed in the anime with that power fully merging with him so he that he still has the same power even when he doesn't look like a SSJG.

Because in the manga Base Goku does not have SSJG's power running through him, he's still able to turn into a regular Super Saiyan. The anime made the mistake of having him absorb that power like he did in the movie.

Don't know where you got the idea that Base Goku is weaker than Piccolo. Goku possesses the same exact power level in the manga and anime.

Piccolo was able to fight somewhat evenly with Final Form Frost. Vegeta had to transform to beat him.

Base Cabba was weaker than Piccolo and Frost as was heavily implied by both Vados and Vegeta's comment but he was said to be on par with Base Vegeta whose as strong as Base Goku.

So yeah Base Goku in the Universe 6 saga was weaker than Piccolo just like he always was because he never absorbed the power of God to get stronger in the manga. The anime though had him absorb it so he was hundreds of times stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan.

Hence all the confusion and problems ever since when the anime portrayed this God level Base Goku taking part in a Tournament where it was written with the intention that he wasn't at God level.

[LowRyder2005]

Does Black Arc Vegetto have a lower multiplier than Buu Arc Vegetto? I have his current multiplier at only 10-20x Goku.

The proper answer would be that the writers probably didn't care about making Vegito's strength consistent. I ended up creating an ad hoc headcanon (isn't the allitteration nice?) about Future Trunks' arc Vegito being the same exact Vegito of the the Buu saga power-wise. This way, it makes sense Vegito would be substantially stronger, and yet not absurdly stronger, than Goku alone.

It works almost suprisingly well with the retcon/two-base theories and you can even say: "that's why he had the same clothes instead of Vegeta's armor".

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

The anime made the mistake of having him absorb that power like he did in the movie.

If this plot point is truly retconned like it appears to be (by not just Toyotaro but also Toriyama who is on record saying Toei should emulate Toyotaro rather than the other way around), I don't see why this absorption of power during a singular fight has to be permanent. He temporarily held onto the power after the form expired, it surprised Beerus enough to earn him a compliment, and Beerus's "crimson flame" comment is about Goku being able to re-access that power via transformation. (In Battle of Gods Goku is even shown doing it in the last scene of the battle.) As for why Base Goku is incredibly powerful in F, it's because of Whis's training just like it was for Vegeta. Why wouldn't Base Goku's power grow drastically via the same training that made Vegeta capable of reaching SSG(SS) on his own?

If a retcon exists and it's getting Toriyama's tacit approval, then it's probably time to conform to it rather than fight it. Goku just needs to go Super Saiyan Red in Super again to finally drive a stake through the old explanation's heart, but the fact that he hasn't isn't even that weird since it's been established that Super Saiyan Blue is better in every way but stamina.

[ChiefWamsutta]

If this plot point is truly retconned like it appears to be (by not just Toyotaro but also Toriyama who is on record saying Toei should emulate Toyotaro rather than the other way around), I don't see why this absorption of power during a singular fight has to be permanent. He temporarily held onto the power after the form expired, it surprised Beerus enough to earn him a compliment, and Beerus's "crimson flame" comment is about Goku being able to re-access that power via transformation. (In Battle of Gods Goku is even shown doing it in the last scene of the battle.) As for why Base Goku is incredibly powerful in F, it's because of Whis's training just like it was for Vegeta. Why wouldn't Base Goku's power grow drastically via the same training that made Vegeta capable of reaching SSG(SS) on his own?

If a retcon exists and it's getting Toriyama's tacit approval, then it's probably time to conform to it rather than fight it. Goku just needs to go Super Saiyan Red in Super again to finally drive a stake through the old explanation's heart, but the fact that he hasn't isn't even that weird since it's been established that Super Saiyan Blue is better in every way but stamina.

I think the recent episodes have tried to emphasize that there is a change from older DBSuper. I agree that the absorption is all but gone.

One year ago, I would argue that Saiyan Beyond God still might exist. One year from now, and we might have a much clearer message on "the retcon."

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

He can use it SSJG by transforming into it. Nothing like how it's portrayed in the anime with that power fully merging with him so he that he still has the same power even when he doesn't look like a SSJG.

Because in the manga Base Goku does not have SSJG's power running through him, he's still able to turn into a regular Super Saiyan. The anime made the mistake of having him absorb that power like he did in the movie.

Don't know where you got the idea that Base Goku is weaker than Piccolo. Goku possesses the same exact power level in the manga and anime.

Piccolo was able to fight somewhat evenly with Final Form Frost. Vegeta had to transform to beat him.

Base Cabba was weaker than Piccolo and Frost as was heavily implied by both Vados and Vegeta's comment but he was said to be on par with Base Vegeta whose as strong as Base Goku.

So yeah Base Goku in the Universe 6 saga was weaker than Piccolo just like he always was because he never absorbed the power of God to get stronger in the manga. The anime though had him absorb it so he was hundreds of times stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan.

Hence all the confusion and problems ever since when the anime portrayed this God level Base Goku taking part in a Tournament where it was written with the intention that he wasn't at God level.

He can use SSJG because the power merged with him, otherwise he wouldn't be able to use it. There is no further distinction as I've already stated. He can transform into a basic Super Saiyan, just like the "Saiyan Beyond God" Goku from every other media.

Base Cabba was never implied to be weaker than Piccolo and Vegeta transforming against Frost doesn't mean that he's weaker than Piccolo in base. That makes no sense.

[Bullza]

He can use SSJG because the power merged with him, otherwise he wouldn't be able to use it.

No that's false by Toriyama's own words. He uses it in the manga because it's a power that he lacks within himself, it's not fully merged with him, he has to personally transform into Super Saiyan God to reach that level of power. Otherwise as a Super Saiyan 3 he still doesn't have close to that level of power.

Nothing like what happened with the anime where the power did merge with his own so he wasnt weaker after the Super Saiyan God form disappeared which is why it was never seen again.

Manga - SSJG >>>> SSJ3

Anime - SSJG = "I didn't get weaker" SSJ

Good god, it is not that confusing, this is something that people were already aware of many months ago.

Base Cabba was never implied to be weaker than Piccolo and Vegeta transforming against Frost doesn't mean that he's weaker than Piccolo in base. That makes no sense.

Vados said that Frost was the strongest warrior, he's therefore stronger than Base Cabba.

Base Cabba is on par with Base Vegeta so he too is weaker than Frost.

Frost and Piccolo fought and it was a evenly matched fight with Piccolo saying he couldn't beat Frost but Frost couldn't beat him either. So if Piccolo is on Frost's level and Base Cabba and thus Base Vegeta are not then Piccolo is stronger than Base Vegeta and Goku as he was throughout DBZ.

He's obviously not thousands upon thousands of times stronger than Piccolo as they were made out to be in the Resurrection F saga.