"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Simere]

Only thing I saw in the fight against Freeza's army was teamwork failing to overcome the massive power advantage the "Z Fighters" had. When an actually strong opponent stepped in to fight they didn't even try to fight together.

Because teamwork doesn't work in DB.

[SansrivaaL]

Only thing I saw in the fight against Freeza's army was teamwork failing to overcome the massive power advantage the "Z Fighters" had. When an actually strong opponent stepped in to fight they didn't even try to fight together.

Because teamwork doesn't work in DB.

They didnt try anything against Freeza because they know it wont do any good so they just stood there, unlike here where there's rules of "no killing" and "thrown out of bounds = win".

[Ki Breaker]

It's not the only victory condition obviously.. It's just a huge one. Individually tien, Roshi and krillin will have to have someone strong with them to help stop them from getting eliminated quickly. Left by themselves, they'll get knocked out asap. I highly expect them to nerf most of the universes to match their strength though. So stupid

They have 40hrs to search for and think of team work between characters who might not even have met..
You know the concept of working together kind of falls apart when strangers and forced to work together, most don't trust the other..

In our universe's case though, working together will be a piece of cake, we saw it in freeza force fight, we will see it here, them taking out opponents left and right and getting helped by others when they can't Handel anymore is something you can look forward to..
So, Even a strong guy can be taken by surprise when weak ones are good at team work, they don't have to defeat them, just push em out

If Krillin's down with it, they can use sexy technique, have 18 strip little by little to lure them close enough for the others to push them.

Krillin will agree, he has a thing for exhibitions

[LightBing]

Because teamwork doesn't work in DB.

Piccolo, Goku and Gohan against Raditz. Everybody against Vegeta. #17 saying that if everybody ganged up against #18 she might lose. Those are from the top of my head.

Power in Dragon Ball is the major factor when determining a winner but it's not the only one. Please don't feed the myth.

[Simere]

Only thing I saw in the fight against Freeza's army was teamwork failing to overcome the massive power advantage the "Z Fighters" had. When an actually strong opponent stepped in to fight they didn't even try to fight together.

Because teamwork doesn't work in DB.

They didnt try anything against Freeza because they know it wont do any good so they just stood there, unlike here where there's rules of "no killing" and "thrown out of bounds = win".

I meant Tagoma/Ginyu, not Freeza himself. The out of bounds rule does open up some possibilities, admittedly, though I don't think as many as some are hoping. Do you think Tien, Yamcha and Krillin could have forced Cell out of bounds?

Because teamwork doesn't work in DB.

Piccolo, Goku and Gohan against Raditz. Everybody against Vegeta. #17 saying that if everybody ganged up against #18 she might lose. Those are from the top of my head.

Power in Dragon Ball is the major factor when determining a winner but it's not the only one. Please don't feed the myth.

They're at the top of your head because they're the only examples that can barely be scraped together. Try going deeper than the top and you won't come up with anything worthwhile. Instead what you'll find is characters flat out stating they shouldn't even try to work together because their opponent is beyond that.

The myth around these forums is that tactics and teamwork were ever a decisive part of fights. Even in the vaunted "early DB" days where a more varied use of techniques were displayed, it still ultimately came down to power.

[LightBing]

Only thing I saw in the fight against Freeza's army was teamwork failing to overcome the massive power advantage the "Z Fighters" had. When an actually strong opponent stepped in to fight they didn't even try to fight together.

Because teamwork doesn't work in DB.

They didnt try anything against Freeza because they know it wont do any good so they just stood there, unlike here where there's rules of "no killing" and "thrown out of bounds = win".

I meant Tagoma/Ginyu, not Freeza himself. The out of bounds rule does open up some possibilities, admittedly, though I don't think as many as some are hoping.

Because teamwork doesn't work in DB.

Piccolo, Goku and Gohan against Raditz. Everybody against Vegeta. #17 saying that if everybody ganged up against #18 she might lose. Those are from the top of my head.

Power in Dragon Ball is the major factor when determining a winner but it's not the only one. Please don't feed the myth.

They're at the top of your head because they're the only examples that can barely be scraped together. Try going deeper than the top and you won't come up with anything worthwhile. Instead what you'll find is characters flat out stating they shouldn't even try to work together because their opponent is beyond that.

The myth around these forums is that tactics and teamwork was ever a decisive part of fights. Even in the vaunted "Early DB" days where a more varied use of techniques were displayed, it still ultimately came down to power.

That's false. Going a little deeper, Master Roshi saying he wouldn't be able to take the Red Ribbon Army alone, Piccolo, Kuririn and Gohan assisting Goku when he needed to hit Freeza with the Genki Dama, when Jeice helped Ginyu against Goku. Oh, almost forgot a major one, the teamwork against Pure Boo when Mr.Boo, Vegeta and Mr.Satan helped Goku.

This isn't a black or white question. I'm not denying that power is the number one factor, I want a nuanced conversation. There's situations and situations, don't put everything in the same bag and make generalizations.

[Simere]

That's false. Going a little deeper, Master Roshi saying he wouldn't be able to take the Red Ribbon Army alone

Should hypothetical teamwork situations count? They didn't even think they could take on the Red Ribbon Army as a team.

Actually, I've always found that whole thing bizarre. Roshi even after that arc thought he was still stronger than Goku. That being so, he shouldn't have had any need to be so concerned; especially knowing he had the eminently capable help of Krillin and Yamucha. I've only seen this arc in the anime; I hear it's better in the manga so maybe it makes more sense there.

Piccolo, Kuririn and Gohan assisting Goku when he needed to hit Freeza with the Genki Dama

Failed attempts should be examples I use, shouldn't they?

when Jeice helped Ginyu against Goku.

Don't you think it's telling that you have to dip into enemy teamwork to find success?

Oh, almost forgot a major one, the teamwork against Pure Boo when Mr.Boo, Vegeta and Mr.Satan helped Goku.

I won't argue this shouldn't count...but how much should it? When there's some 7" player on a middle school basketball team, how much does passing the ball to him really deserve credit for winning as a team? Yes, I know, no one bother explaining to me that the situations aren't exactly the same.

I also just want to point out that this example and the other two best examples(Raditz and Vegeta) still ultimately came down to power. Not that that disqualifies them, but it shows you what still ultimately matters. The overwhelmingly powerful Genki Dama, the overwhelmingly powerful Makankosappo, and being crushed by an overwhelmingly powerful oozaru. Not a series of weak but well executed techniques from Roshi or Tien.

This isn't a black or white question. I'm not denying that power is the number one factor, I want a nuanced conversation. There's situations and situations, don't put everything in the same bag and make generalizations.

It's black with a splotch of white in it. It's #111111(17, 17, 17).

I don't like adding nuance and complexity to situations where none or very little exist. Power isn't just the number one factor, it's repeatedly demonstrated overwhelming importance over the other factors; losing out only in extreme edge cases that shouldn't be overly factored for. People are arguing that Roshi is some strategical genius(which is also something I dispute, but that's for another day) who can leverage that into a winning advantage over much more powerful opponents. That his experience and wisdom is worth more than the power of Goten or Trunks. That flies in the face of everything DB has shown me.

[Noah]

I suppose the ring is big as f*** to support 80 fighters with certain space for them strategize

[Lapislettuce]

Any of you seen this poster already ?

I know it's kind of old but this is the best quality i've seen of it.

[LightBing]

Snip

Your making up criteria to disprove actual teamwork in the manga, some reasons being silly like enemies teamwork. It still is teamwork that worked, how does this help you disprove it?
You want to ignore hypothetical, that's a reasonable.
Piccolo, Gohan and Kuririn successfully helped Goku use the Genki Dama against Freeza. I suggest you read that part again.

Even if Goku was the one who used the Genki Dama, it was only successful because of everyone's contribution; the definition of teamwork. You're only adding constraints that don't exist.

I never disputed power is the main factor, I said it before and I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

I agree with you on the last point. Master Roshi good quality's can't trump the power advantage the kids have on him. Maybe if the kids power was 100 and Master Roshi was 95, but as it stands it goes, like you said, against what Dragon Ball has consistently shown.

This is my last post regarding this topic, we're starting to take over this thread and the conversation is turning repetitive and pedantic.

[Simere]

There's no point in me responding if you're not going to, but in future I hope you recognize the difference between trying to downplay something and trying to disprove it.

[SansrivaaL]

I meant Tagoma/Ginyu, not Freeza himself. The out of bounds rule does open up some possibilities, admittedly, though I don't think as many as some are hoping. Do you think Tien, Yamcha and Krillin could have forced Cell out of bounds?

Out of bounds and with him not being able to fly? yes definitely.

[kinisking]

I meant Tagoma/Ginyu, not Freeza himself. The out of bounds rule does open up some possibilities, admittedly, though I don't think as many as some are hoping. Do you think Tien, Yamcha and Krillin could have forced Cell out of bounds?

Out of bounds and with him not being able to fly? yes definitely.

How ? Tien would be the only one able to push him and only if he's on the edge.

[Alee9977]

I meant Tagoma/Ginyu, not Freeza himself. The out of bounds rule does open up some possibilities, admittedly, though I don't think as many as some are hoping. Do you think Tien, Yamcha and Krillin could have forced Cell out of bounds?

Out of bounds and with him not being able to fly? yes definitely.

They are allowed to fly.

[DragonBallFoodie]

Any of you seen this poster already ?

I know it's kind of old but this is the best quality i've seen of it.

OMG that is epic. I can totally see a DBS episode happening like this.

[Ki Breaker]

I wonder how useful our cast will be..
Going by the history they probably are nothing but space fillers for the team, and some fanservice as well..

Especially given they don't have training time exactly, after all in that short amount of time not all can use the time chamber

[kinisking]

I wonder how useful our cast will be..
Going by the history they probably are nothing but space fillers for the team, and some fanservice as well..

Especially given they don't have training time exactly, after all in that short amount of time not all can use the time chamber

So doing bad is a guarantee and doing good is fan service ? I hate that term because people over use the hell out of it.

Not all can use the time chamber but Whis has a staff with a similar environment. Don't worry, they wouldn't bring ten participants only for it to be a Goku and Vegeta show. I'm now 100 percent confident Goku, Gohan , Vegeta, Krillin and 17 will all be relevant. Boo, 18, Roshi and Piccolo are debatable while I think Tien is going to be irrelevant.

[TekTheNinja]

I meant Tagoma/Ginyu, not Freeza himself. The out of bounds rule does open up some possibilities, admittedly, though I don't think as many as some are hoping. Do you think Tien, Yamcha and Krillin could have forced Cell out of bounds?

Out of bounds and with him not being able to fly? yes definitely.

They are allowed to fly.

No they aren't.

[Lapislettuce]

I wonder how useful our cast will be..
Going by the history they probably are nothing but space fillers for the team, and some fanservice as well..

Especially given they don't have training time exactly, after all in that short amount of time not all can use the time chamber

To me it's going to be like this in order of relevance.
1-Goku (duh)
2-Vegeta/17 (and yes i did put 17 their not because i'm a fangirl but just based on this poster )
3-Gohan (Goku seems to believe in him a lot so he won't disappoint).
4-Krillin and 18 (more Krillin than 18 tbh)
5-Piccolo,Roshi,Tien (in that order).

[namekiansaiyan]

I wonder how useful our cast will be..
Going by the history they probably are nothing but space fillers for the team, and some fanservice as well..

Especially given they don't have training time exactly, after all in that short amount of time not all can use the time chamber

So doing bad is a guarantee and doing good is fan service ? I hate that term because people over use the hell out of it.

Not all can use the time chamber but Whis has a staff with a similar environment. Don't worry, they wouldn't bring ten participants only for it to be a Goku and Vegeta show. I'm now 100 percent confident Goku, Gohan , Vegeta, Krillin and 17 will all be relevant. Boo, 18, Roshi and Piccolo are debatable while I think Tien is going to be irrelevant.

Why are you so confident of this?