Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Second: Where would that put Magenta and Hit? are they not from U6 as well? even leaving Cabba out, we have two characters from U6 who far exceed frost, unless you wanna argue frost is stronger than them due to some isolated line

It could still work.

Magetta didn't really do anything. He was very durable and strong being a metal man but aside from spitting lava which stopped some generic Ki blasts he didn't anything that could stop Frost from being more powerful.

Hit is more of a reach. You'd have to say that Vados was only aware of Hit's normal power, not his true power which is likely because Champa didn't know and Hit did say it had been a very long time since he used it.

This normal power of Hit's was below Super Saiyan Goku going by Beerus' comment. However he did fight on par with him unlike Frost but they did say that Goku having to deal with the time skip was wearing him out.

So it might be a bit of push but it can fit if you want it to fit. Of course none of this applies to the anime. They never called Frost the strongest there.

Also Vados said that about Frost when he was in his third form and Vegeta did say Cabba was as strong as himself in the Viz translation. Him holding his own was said in a scanlation.

I don't think Vegeta really can have a Saiyan Beyond God form because he got to the level of Super Saiyan God by training. His RoF SBG form that you state should be his Base form he uses from there on out.

But then he shouldn't be able to turn Blue should he? He needs to be a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God in order to turn Blue. Otherwise no matter how strong he may have gotten through lifting heavy weights he should still only just turn yellow.

Goku did say when he saw him that his Ki had a different quality to it which could be him referring to it being Godly.

Did we ever find out if Spirit Bomb Sword SSRage Trunks was stronger than SSB Vegito?

Nah and he might not be. SSJB Vegito might have finished Zamasu off if he could have landed that last punch. Still Zamasu didn't too effected by the Final Kamehameha but he sure felt that sword being shoved through him.

SSB Goku Zenkai, SSB Vegeta RoSaT, Super Trunks Enraged should all be below SSRose Black Scythe because he overwhelmed them with the clones.

That's what I originally thought but I don't think I do anymore. They said Merged Zamasu was Black and Zamasu's power together and then expanded to no end.

Goku and Vegeta try attacking Zamasu and they get put down but then afterwards when they try again they say they're going at full power and this time they destroy that Susanoo looking thing.

Vegeta and Trunks overwhelmed Zamasu. Goku overpowered him when he went all out. When he used the Kaioken he easily overwhelmed him too so I have all three being over half Zamasu's strength.

So now I think when Vegeta and Goku were fighting Black they were still holding back and they didn't really go full power until things got serious with Zamasu.

[ChiefWamsutta]

But then he shouldn't be able to turn Blue should he? He needs to be a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God in order to turn Blue. Otherwise no matter how strong he may have gotten through lifting heavy weights he should still only just turn yellow.

Right, he totally shouldn't. If we say that you need to somehow have the SSG power you could either be an SSG or an SBG and then transform into a Super Saiyan to become SSB. The problem lies in that Vegeta never went SSG, so that rules that out. How would he have option #2 then? Because to get SBG it seems you need SSG.

Nah and he might not be. SSJB Vegito might have finished Zamasu off if he could have landed that last punch. Still Zamasu didn't too effected by the Final Kamehameha but he sure felt that sword being shoved through him.

I'm honestly fine with Spirit Bomb Sword Trunks being above SSB Vegito. I just recall Vegito saying Mutated Merged Zamasu had gotten slower.

That's what I originally thought but I don't think I do anymore. They said Merged Zamasu was Black and Zamasu's power together and then expanded to no end.

Goku and Vegeta try attacking Zamasu and they get put down but then afterwards when they try again they say they're going at full power and this time they destroy that Susanoo looking thing.

Vegeta and Trunks overwhelmed Zamasu. Goku overpowered him when he went all out. When he used the Kaioken he easily overwhelmed him too so I have all three being over half Zamasu's strength.

So now I think when Vegeta and Goku were fighting Black they were still holding back and they didn't really go full power until things got serious with Zamasu.

That's very true. The Father-Son Galick Gun and Breaking Arms Kamehameha damaged him badly. Okay, I agree with you that they would be above SSRose Black Scythe. However, I would still argue that SSB KK×10 Goku from U6 was more powerful than them. I don't think it's stronger than Merged Zamasu, as he was the strongest power Vegeta and Shin had seen.

[spoiler]Zeno Tier

Zeno = Future Zeno

Angel Tier

Grand Priest
Vados
Whis

God of Destruction Tier

Beerus
Champa

Fusion Tier

Spirit Trunks
SSJB Vegito
Mutated Merged Zamasu
SSJB Goku Kaioken x2 (Universe Survival)
Merged Zamasu
SSJB Goku (Zenkai?) = SSJB Vegeta (ROSAT) = Super Trunks (Enraged) (Future Trunks)
Hit (Future Trunks)
SSJB Goku Kaioken x10 (Universe 6)

Super Saiyan Blue Tier

SSJR Black (Scythe)
SSJR Black (Scimitar)
Super Trunks
Enraged SSJB Goku
SSJR Black
SSJB Goku = SSJB Vegeta (Future Trunks)
SSJB Goku = SSJB Vegeta (Universe 6)
Hit (Universe 6)
Golden Frieza
SSJB Goku = SSJB Vegeta (Resurrection F)

Super Saiyan God Tier

Saiyan Beyond God Goku = Saiyan Beyond God Vegeta (Resurrection F)
Final Form Frieza (Resurrection F)
Saiyan Beyond God Goku (Battle of Gods)
SSJ Beyond God Goku
SSJG Goku

Supressed Beerus Tier

Super Bergamo
SSJ Vegito
SSJ Goku (With everyone's power)
Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta
Beerus (Under 10%)

Ultimate Gohan Tier

Ultimate Gohan
SSJ3 Gotenks
SSJ2 Future Trunks (After Training)
First Form Frieza
SSJ Gohan = SSJ Goku (Universe Survival)
SSJ Gohan (Resurrection F)

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 Tier

Vegito
SSJ3 Goku (Battle of Gods)
Good Buu
Super Basil
SSJ2 Goku (Battle of Gods) = Black (Second Power Up)
Black (First Power Up)
Black
Present Zamasu
SSJ2 Future Trunks (Before Training)
SSJ2 Kid Gohan (Cell Games)

Super Saiyan Tier

SSJ Goku = SSJ Vegeta (Battle of Gods)
SSJ Cabba
Magetta
SSJ Future Trunks (Before Training)
Final Form Frost
Piccolo (Universe 6) = Gohan = Goku (Universe Survival)
Bergamo
Lavender
Basil
Gohan (Resurrection F) = Tagoma = Future Trunks (Before Training)
SSJ Kid Trunks
SSJ Goten
Android 18
Final Form Frieza (Namek)

Base Tier

Goku = Vegeta (Battle of Gods)
Cabba
Future Trunks (Before Training)
Third Form Frost
Kid Trunks
Goten
First Form Frost
Botamo

Worthless Tier

Krillin
Tien
Shisami
Gryll
Jaco
Roshi
Monaka[/spoiler]

I did have some questions about the Supressed Beerus Tier. How come you have Enraged SS2 Vegeta weaker than SS Vegito? I believe Goku said that not even fusion would be enough against Beerus. I took this to mean it couldn't hurt him, and Vegeta in this form put up a good fight. I don't even know where to put Super Bergamo, haha. I'm curious as to why there. Also, how did you gauge SS Goku + 4 Saiyan's Power? I feel like we don't know enough about it to out a placement on it.

[DBZ Macky]

Lavenda was able to give SS Gohan a good fight and should be about as strong as him. Lavenda was dominating over a healthy base Gohan. Gohan was only able to counter his attacks because he was able to tell when he would attack, it doesn't mean Lavenda is around Base Gohan. This should be similar to the Base Goku vs Hit situation.

[Hugo Boss]

But then he shouldn't be able to turn Blue should he? He needs to be a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God in order to turn Blue. Otherwise no matter how strong he may have gotten through lifting heavy weights he should still only just turn yellow.

Right, he totally shouldn't. If we say that you need to somehow have the SSG power you could either be an SSG or an SBG and then transform into a Super Saiyan to become SSB. The problem lies in that Vegeta never went SSG, so that rules that out. How would he have option #2 then? Because to get SBG it seems you need SSG.

Vegeta became a Super Saiyan Blue because he learned to control his ki like Whis suggested and got strong enough, at least in Dragon Ball Super.

[ChiefWamsutta]

But then he shouldn't be able to turn Blue should he? He needs to be a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God in order to turn Blue. Otherwise no matter how strong he may have gotten through lifting heavy weights he should still only just turn yellow.

Right, he totally shouldn't. If we say that you need to somehow have the SSG power you could either be an SSG or an SBG and then transform into a Super Saiyan to become SSB. The problem lies in that Vegeta never went SSG, so that rules that out. How would he have option #2 then? Because to get SBG it seems you need SSG.

Vegeta became a Super Saiyan Blue because he learned to control his ki like Whis suggested and got strong enough, at least in Dragon Ball Super.

I know, yeah. This is kinda why I don't see Saiyan Beyond God as a real form. I don't even know how Vegeta could get it. What even would be that Super Saiyan Beyond God-thing that Goku became after losing SSG? Is it now, Base < SS < SS2 < SS3 << SSG < SSbG < SbG < SSB? It's easier to just not have it and say, Base < SS < SS2 < SS3 << SSG < SSB. I try to keep an open mind though.

[Triggered Vegeta]

Base < SS < SS2 < SS3 << SSG < SSB.

This works the best, with the current scaling.

There is no ssj Beyond God, ssj2 Beyond God nor ssj3 Beyond God... SBG isn't even a canon base state/ form.. it's from DB heroes I believe.

The problem I have is how Base Vegeta can see the fight between Goku & Golden Frieza, I thought he needed ssgss to read those movements/ keep up with their speed... idk how that works.

I wish they could've kept base near or at ssjG... then transform into Blue... so just base and blue... no ssj -> ssj3.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Base < SSJ < Goku's SSJ2 < SSJ3 < SSJ2 < SSGod < SSBlue

[Bullza]

If we say that you need to somehow have the SSG power you could either be an SSG or an SBG and then transform into a Super Saiyan to become SSB. The problem lies in that Vegeta never went SSG, so that rules that out. How would he have option #2 then? Because to get SBG it seems you need SSG.

There must be an additional way of becoming Super Saiyan God besides the ritual. After he becomes Blue, Goku does say that while he had to borrow the strength of other Saiyans, for Vegeta it was just his own power which does make it sound like he obtained it another way. They completely skipped over all of his training so we could only guess.

Maybe it's like becoming a Super Saiyan where they're all capable of it but through training or a certain type of training they are able to tap into it. I don't know if that's what they were getting at it with Trunks' new form or not.

However, I would still argue that SSB KK×10 Goku from U6 was more powerful than them. I don't think it's stronger than Merged Zamasu, as he was the strongest power Vegeta and Shin had seen.

Well he could be but if Merged Zamasu was stronger than the Kaioken x10 from the Tournament and the current SSJB Goku and Vegeta were over half as strong as Merged Zamasu so they'd need to be probably at least six times as strong as they were at the Tournament anyway.

They did say he had the strongest power they'd ever seen but it was also said before Goku and Vegeta used their full power too. There's also how Goku had to use Kaioken x10 to fight against Hit but then he said he was much stronger than before but then Goku was still a match for him without any Kaioken. So he could be stronger he could be weaker but he's gotta be several fold stronger.

How come you have Enraged SS2 Vegeta weaker than SS Vegito? I believe Goku said that not even fusion would be enough against Beerus. I took this to mean it couldn't hurt him, and Vegeta in this form put up a good fight. I don't even know where to put Super Bergamo, haha. I'm curious as to why there. Also, how did you gauge SS Goku + 4 Saiyan's Power?

Well you'd need to take a hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Vegito into account and it just seems a bit much too think Enraged Vegeta could have surpassed that. When Goku said Fusion wouldn't be enough was that based on how much Beerus used to fight him or did Goku know he was severly holding back and that was taken into account?

Not that he couldn't have been stronger though because the manga would make it seem as though it's well over 50 times stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku....which thinking about it would probably be similar to Super Vegito.

Super Bergamo was mostly a guess. They said Blue Goku was at the level of Gods and not Bergamo so I just had him below the level of Gods. He did power up further since they said that though but I'd only be guessing.

Super Saiyan Goku absorbing everyone's power should be stronger than Enraged Vegeta. In the movie dub Gohan said he was the strongest in history which would put him above Super Vegito but yeah that's just the dub I forgot what was said in the sub. They could both be far above Super Vegito.

[Cabba]

It could still work.
Magetta didn't really do anything. He was very durable and strong being a metal man but aside from spitting lava which stopped some generic Ki blasts he didn't anything that could stop Frost from being more powerful.
Hit is more of a reach. You'd have to say that Vados was only aware of Hit's normal power, not his true power which is likely because Champa didn't know and Hit did say it had been a very long time since he used it.
This normal power of Hit's was below Super Saiyan Goku going by Beerus' comment. However he did fight on par with him unlike Frost but they did say that Goku having to deal with the time skip was wearing him out.
So it might be a bit of push but it can fit if you want it to fit. Of course none of this applies to the anime. They never called Frost the strongest there.
Also Vados said that about Frost when he was in his third form and Vegeta did say Cabba was as strong as himself in the Viz translation. Him holding his own was said in a scanlation.

There is no possibility no wiggle room to contemplate the possibility of frost being stronger than Magetta let alone Hit.
Frost took 4 hits from Goku SS who was playing with him and 3 Hits from Vegeta SS who said he went easy on him. Sure, Magetta was not a well-rounded fighter like he was not able to fly or move freely but that doesn’t make him any less powerful. He was able to hurt Vegeta SS, he was able to tank Vegetas Ki attacks and was able to counter attack Vegetas ki attacks with his lava attack and even though they are generic ki blast Vegeta was being serious not fooling around, he showed far greater power than frost in his battle, frost woulnt be able to take those attacks head on or counteract them with his own ki attacks, the only reason he was easily beaten is because of the hurt feelings gimmick.

You are right, I was wrong about Vados making that comment in his first form, it was actually in his second (third?) form but definitely no the final form, I just checked
Vados knew what Hit was capable of, she said even after witnessing Vegetas full power SSB against Cabba (remember she can feel god ki) he is our last but he should be able to manage. Champa was so insistent on Hit being a part of the team because he knew he was their trump card.

Both Vados and champa were surprised when Vegeta transformed into SSB, so it’s perfectly reasonable to assume Hakaishins and Angels don’t know everything that’s going on in their sibling universe which is why Beerus made that comment, probably referring to Goku SSB having the power advantage because later on Whys makes it crystal clear that Goku closed the power differential by going SSG(red) the only way for time skip to work at max efficiency is if on those equal or lesser than the users own power level. Beerus then went on to ask why Vegeta wasn’t able to overcome it in his Blue form, giving more credence to the fact that he made that comment referring to SSB Goku
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

And even then, without powering up Hit was able to take direct SSG hits and ki attack without going unconscious. Frost would be dead if he received even just one hit from SSG
Only champa was took by surprise by Hits power up, Vados went on to explain how there was no incentive for hit to use his full power. Even Whys knew about the rumors of Hit boasting the greatest strength of U6. If whys knew a rumor, Vados most certainly knew the full extent of Hits powers.
[spoiler][/spoiler]


Whats more someone who is below Piccolo tier in terms of power as you seem to believe wouldn’t be able to Hurt SSB Vegeta, even at 10% SSB is stronger than his SS form. Base Vegeta was testing Cabba at first, then he was easily able to out speed him and kick him by surprise. Viz takes liberty with its translation, the you can hold your own against me line is more accurate

[pacz360]

I would like to see everyone's DBS ower level lists if they have one. And perhaps include Buu Arc Goku and Vegetto as references.

I don't have numbers applied to anyone but I have a general order of how characters stack up.

Zeno Tier

Zeno = Future Zeno

Angel Tier

Grand Priest
Vados
Whis

God of Destruction Tier

Beerus
Champa

Fusion Tier

Spirit Trunks
SSJB Vegito
Mutated Merged Zamasu
SSJB Goku Kaioken x2 (Universe Survival)
Merged Zamasu
SSJB Goku (Zenkai?) = SSJB Vegeta (ROSAT) = Super Trunks (Enraged) (Future Trunks)
Hit (Future Trunks)
SSJB Goku Kaioken x10 (Universe 6)

Super Saiyan Blue Tier

SSJR Black (Scythe)
SSJR Black (Scimitar)
Super Trunks
Enraged SSJB Goku
SSJR Black
SSJB Goku = SSJB Vegeta (Future Trunks)
SSJB Goku = SSJB Vegeta (Universe 6)
Hit (Universe 6)
Golden Frieza
SSJB Goku = SSJB Vegeta (Resurrection F)

Super Saiyan God Tier

Saiyan Beyond God Goku = Saiyan Beyond God Vegeta (Resurrection F)
Final Form Frieza (Resurrection F)
Saiyan Beyond God Goku (Battle of Gods)
SSJ Beyond God Goku
SSJG Goku

Supressed Beerus Tier

Super Bergamo
SSJ Vegito
SSJ Goku (With everyone's power)
Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta
Beerus (Under 10%)

Ultimate Gohan Tier

Ultimate Gohan
SSJ3 Gotenks
SSJ2 Future Trunks (After Training)
First Form Frieza
SSJ Gohan = SSJ Goku (Universe Survival)
SSJ Gohan (Resurrection F)

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 Tier

Vegito
SSJ3 Goku (Battle of Gods)
Good Buu
Super Basil
SSJ2 Goku (Battle of Gods) = Black (Second Power Up)
Black (First Power Up)
Black
Present Zamasu
SSJ2 Future Trunks (Before Training)
SSJ2 Kid Gohan (Cell Games)

Super Saiyan Tier

SSJ Goku = SSJ Vegeta (Battle of Gods)
SSJ Cabba
Magetta
SSJ Future Trunks (Before Training)
Final Form Frost
Piccolo (Universe 6) = Gohan = Goku (Universe Survival)
Bergamo
Lavender
Basil
Gohan (Resurrection F) = Tagoma = Future Trunks (Before Training)
SSJ Kid Trunks
SSJ Goten
Android 18
Final Form Frieza (Namek)

Base Tier

Goku = Vegeta (Battle of Gods)
Cabba
Future Trunks (Before Training)
Third Form Frost
Kid Trunks
Goten
First Form Frost
Botamo

Worthless Tier

Krillin
Tien
Shisami
Gryll
Jaco
Roshi
Monaka

Yeah I disagree with this strongly especially you downplaying u6 fighters plus how the hell amped bergamo weaker than ssjgod when he was able to briefly stall and overpowered a much stronger ssjblue kk goku until the later had to put more power into and survived to attack.

[Bullza]

Whats more someone who is below Piccolo tier in terms of power as you seem to believe wouldn’t be able to Hurt SSB Vegeta, even at 10% SSB is stronger than his SS form.

Yeah I suppose you're right then, I guess we'll have to over look that line. Like I said it wasn't mentioned in the anime and it wouldn't made sense there anyway.

I still think Base Goku, Vegeta and Cabba are weaker than Frost though. Not just because they had to transform against him but Vegeta commented on Cabba's power lacking for that Tournament but had no problems with Piccolo being in it.

Yeah I disagree with this strongly especially you downplaying u6 fighters plus how the hell amped bergamo weaker than ssjgod when he was able to briefly stall and overpowered a much stronger ssjblue kk goku until the later had to put more power into and survived to attack.

I don't think I'm downplaying them. Super Saiyan Cabba and Magetta were about as strong as Super Saiyan Vegeta. Frost was somewhat weaker.

You've naturally got Super Saiyan 2 and 3 above that where there'd be Trunks, Zamasu and Black and then above that you've got Super Saiyan God.

Bergamo was mainly just a guess, I wasn't even going to include him like I didn't with Base Black after his final power up because I don't know where to put him.

[Cabba]

Base < SS < SS2 < SS3 << SSG < SSB.
This works the best, with the current scaling.

Something interesting i noticed in the black arc manga is that Vegeta SS(2) is far stronger than the SS3 form Goku showed earlier to trunks
This is the post i made earlier about it:

After reading the manga i just noticed something interesting
Trunks max SS2 form is stated to be SS3 tier by Vegeta. Trunks said even with that power he was nothing but fodder for Goku black. When Vegeta SS2? fights Black as SS2? he utterly dominates black and trunks points out that black is a bit stronger than when he fought him. That would put SS(2) Vegeta at the very least at Vegeto tier from main saga

[pacz360]

Whats more someone who is below Piccolo tier in terms of power as you seem to believe wouldn’t be able to Hurt SSB Vegeta, even at 10% SSB is stronger than his SS form.

Yeah I suppose you're right then, I guess we'll have to over look that line. Like I said it wasn't mentioned in the anime and it wouldn't made sense there anyway.

I still think Base Goku, Vegeta and Cabba are weaker than Frost though. Not just because they had to transform against him but Vegeta commented on Cabba's power lacking for that Tournament but had no problems with Piccolo being in it.

Yeah I disagree with this strongly especially you downplaying u6 fighters plus how the hell amped bergamo weaker than ssjgod when he was able to briefly stall and overpowered a much stronger ssjblue kk goku until the later had to put more power into and survived to attack.

I don't think I'm downplaying them. Super Saiyan Cabba and Magetta were about as strong as Super Saiyan Vegeta. Frost was somewhat weaker.

You've naturally got Super Saiyan 2 and 3 above that where there'd be Trunks, Zamasu and Black and then above that you've got Super Saiyan God.

Bergamo was mainly just a guess, I wasn't even going to include him like I didn't with Base Black after his final power up because I don't know where to put him.

You make it seem like your using the manga scaling which doesnt translate in the anime considering base copy vegeta stomps ssj3 gotenks and base goku being equal to him and yes its canon in the anime considering goku reference the event in the black saga not to mention goku absorbing ssjgod in his ssj form and beerus confirming it.

[Cabba]

Yeah I suppose you're right then, I guess we'll have to over look that line. Like I said it wasn't mentioned in the anime and it wouldn't made sense there anyway.
I still think Base Goku, Vegeta and Cabba are weaker than Frost though. Not just because they had to transform against him but Vegeta commented on Cabba's power lacking for that Tournament but had no problems with Piccolo being in it.

Thats an entirely reasonable stance to take, I'm divided on that one since they never showed them fighting frost at base in his final form. I feel it would be a very even battle between either one of the base saiyans and final form frost, but i could definitely accept the argument of frost edging them, there just isn't enough info, my gut tells me they could beat him in a very even fight.
I dont however think piccolo is stronger than the base saiyans in the U6 arc. Piccolo was fighting defensively against a wore down frost by goku and even then Piccolo was losing stamina faster. A fresh Frost would have a clear victory over piccolo I think

About cabba, I think Vegeta was provoking him on purpose to, breaking him into shape. "I'm surprised you would enter this match with your powers" is from the anime, in the manga he said with such meager skills "i cant believe you survived in battle up until now" yet he was complimenting him moments earlier. This is why i feel Vegeta was just being mean on purpose to break cabba into shape, because he was too naive and his lack of pride.
There is also that line Champa said about him being a saiyan like him and having a chance at winning but at the same time i feel that was there just for plot convenience so i dont put too much weight into it

But like i said, i can accept their base form being weaker than final form frost during the U6 arc, i just dont think we have enough info to make it a definite fact

You make it seem like your using the manga scaling which doesnt translate in the anime considering base copy vegeta stomps ssj3 gotenks and base goku being equal to him and yes its canon in the anime considering goku reference the event in the black saga not to mention goku absorbing ssjgod in his ssj form and beerus confirming it.

In what episode did this happen? i cant believe i miss it, very interested

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

When he has the appearence of a Super Saiyan God, yes. The form does not appear again in the anime because there's no need for it to as he already has its power in his Base form as the Resurrection F manga showed.

No God Ki was never once said to affect his power as was proven when he lost God Ki during his fight with Beerus yet his power stayed exactly the same.

Super Saiyan Blue is a Saiyan with the power of God turning Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan is a Saiyan without the power of God turning Super Saiyan. That's why he can turn into it in the manga because he didn't absorb it's power.


It doesn't matter. If Frost is stronger than Base Goku who is leagues upon leagues ahead of Super Saiyan Gohan then fighting defensively doesn't amount to squat.

Piccolo wouldn't have been able to do the same thing against Final Form Frieza. He said he and the rest of the Z Fighters stood no chance of beating him when he was just in his first form.

Yet it works against Frost because Frost isn't remotely as strong as Frieza. Yet one Goku was shown to be weaker than Frieza and another was weaker than Frost because one is God level and the other isn't.

Base Goku (RoF) > Final Form Frieza >>>>> Final Form Frost > Piccolo > Base Goku (U6)

Nope, nonsense. You're still passing off assumptions as fact. The ressurection F manga shows no such thing and your entire argument is destroyed by Goku turning SSJG during the movie and going normal SSJ in all media. End of story.

Fighting defensively would amount to nothing according to you. That's exactly what happened. Someone weaker than the base Saiyans exhausted Frost by fighting defensively.

[Bullza]

You make it seem like your using the manga scaling which doesnt translate in the anime considering base copy vegeta stomps ssj3 gotenks and base goku being equal to him and yes its canon in the anime

Well that's why I've included the Saiyan Beyond God Goku, the two bases. Otherwise it comes back to all the problems we've had for the last several hundred pages.

If Base Goku can stomp SSJ3 Gotenks and Frost is stronger than him then why is Piccolo who is weaker than Good Buu capable of defeating him?

Why is Base Goku after powering up significantly in the Future Trunks saga now on par with Base Gohan whose possibly still about as strong as Piccolo?

Nope, nonsense. You're still passing off assumptions as fact. The ressurection F manga shows no such thing and your entire argument is destroyed by Goku turning SSJG during the movie and going normal SSJ in all media. End of story.

It is exactly what it shows. You simply choose to ignore it to instead just make things up like God Essence. Goku didn't turn back into a SSJG in the anime not where he did so in the movie or in the manga and again obviously it's not because the writers just so happened to not feel like including it unlike all the other forms, he just doesn't need to like Toriyama said.

Fighting defensively would amount to nothing according to you. That's exactly what happened. Someone weaker than the base Saiyans exhausted Frost by fighting defensively.

Fighting defensively will work to an extent. He gave him trouble and in the anime they said he could have potentially beaten him too. Likewise he and the rest stood no chance against Frieza in his first form.

First Form Frieza > Final Form Frost.

In any case seeing as it would appear that for whatever bizarre reason you've been reporting me (Kaboom said several posts were reported, it was surely you) then this will be my last reply to you. It's supposed to be a fun discussion, you're not supposed to be getting yourself all worked up over it. When it gets to that point it's time to stop.

[ZombieVito]

When he has the appearence of a Super Saiyan God, yes. The form does not appear again in the anime because there's no need for it to as he already has its power in his Base form as the Resurrection F manga showed.

No God Ki was never once said to affect his power as was proven when he lost God Ki during his fight with Beerus yet his power stayed exactly the same.

Super Saiyan Blue is a Saiyan with the power of God turning Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan is a Saiyan without the power of God turning Super Saiyan. That's why he can turn into it in the manga because he didn't absorb it's power.


It doesn't matter. If Frost is stronger than Base Goku who is leagues upon leagues ahead of Super Saiyan Gohan then fighting defensively doesn't amount to squat.

Piccolo wouldn't have been able to do the same thing against Final Form Frieza. He said he and the rest of the Z Fighters stood no chance of beating him when he was just in his first form.

Yet it works against Frost because Frost isn't remotely as strong as Frieza. Yet one Goku was shown to be weaker than Frieza and another was weaker than Frost because one is God level and the other isn't.

Base Goku (RoF) > Final Form Frieza >>>>> Final Form Frost > Piccolo > Base Goku (U6)

Nope, nonsense. You're still passing off assumptions as fact. The ressurection F manga shows no such thing and your entire argument is destroyed by Goku turning SSJG during the movie and going normal SSJ in all media. End of story.

Fighting defensively would amount to nothing according to you. That's exactly what happened. Someone weaker than the base Saiyans exhausted Frost by fighting defensively.

I have to disagree. This heavily implies it, he even managed to cut a bit of Whis's hair.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

It is exactly what it shows. You simply choose to ignore it to instead just make things up like God Essence. Goku didn't turn back into a SSJG in the anime not where he did so in the movie or in the manga and again obviously it's not because the writers just so happened to not feel like including it unlike all the other forms, he just doesn't need to like Toriyama said.

Fighting defensively will work to an extent. He gave him trouble and in the anime they said he could have potentially beaten him too. Likewise he and the rest stood no chance against Frieza in his first form.

First Form Frieza > Final Form Frost.

In any case seeing as it would appear that for whatever bizarre reason you've been reporting me (Kaboom said several posts were reported, it was surely you) then this will be my last reply to you. It's supposed to be a fun discussion, you're not supposed to be getting yourself all worked up over it. When it gets to that point it's time to stop.

Ignore what happened all you want. Goku turned SSJG in the movie and you're making up the reason as to why it didn't happen in the anime. Toriyama specifically said to watch the movie if you want to understand the whole God situation, so once again, Toriyama didn't say anything going against what happened in the movie. He endorsed it.

Again, you can keep pretending that there's some correlation to what happened in the anime and what Toriyama said, ignoring the fact that there was only one way to transform into SSJG at that point(the ritual), so you don't have an argument regardless. You're allowed to make up theories, but be sure to clarify that they are nothing but theories instead of talking in a way like it was stated by an official authority.

Piccolo was stated to have stood no chance against Final form Frost by Goku. And you're ignoring the tournament rules that Frost couldn't kill Piccolo while Freeza can obviously kill Piccolo whenever he wants.

Don't know what you're talking about. I didn't report anyone, nor do I have any reason to do that. The only problem here is that you don't even acknowledge the fact that what you're saying is a theory, not an established truth.

[pacz360]

You make it seem like your using the manga scaling which doesnt translate in the anime considering base copy vegeta stomps ssj3 gotenks and base goku being equal to him and yes its canon in the anime

Well that's why I've included the Saiyan Beyond God Goku, the two bases. Otherwise it comes back to all the problems we've had for the last several hundred pages.

If Base Goku can stomp SSJ3 Gotenks and Frost is stronger than him then why is Piccolo who is weaker than Good Buu capable of defeating him?

Why is Base Goku after powering up significantly in the Future Trunks saga now on par with Base Gohan whose possibly still about as strong as Piccolo?

First off where is stated buu>piccolo gonna plus frost was weakened in his fight against goku
Second who to say gohan didn't get any stronger the guy was complimented by champa for being tough plus trained with piccolo for eight months
Let's also mentioned how base goku did better against beerus who put more effort in his fight against him then he did in bog against everyone before ssj god

[pacz360]

Yeah I suppose you're right then, I guess we'll have to over look that line. Like I said it wasn't mentioned in the anime and it wouldn't made sense there anyway.
I still think Base Goku, Vegeta and Cabba are weaker than Frost though. Not just because they had to transform against him but Vegeta commented on Cabba's power lacking for that Tournament but had no problems with Piccolo being in it.

Thats an entirely reasonable stance to take, I'm divided on that one since they never showed them fighting frost at base in his final form. I feel it would be a very even battle between either one of the base saiyans and final form frost, but i could definitely accept the argument of frost edging them, there just isn't enough info, my gut tells me they could beat him in a very even fight.
I dont however think piccolo is stronger than the base saiyans in the U6 arc. Piccolo was fighting defensively against a wore down frost by goku and even then Piccolo was losing stamina faster. A fresh Frost would have a clear victory over piccolo I think

About cabba, I think Vegeta was provoking him on purpose to, breaking him into shape. "I'm surprised you would enter this match with your powers" is from the anime, in the manga he said with such meager skills "i cant believe you survived in battle up until now" yet he was complimenting him moments earlier. This is why i feel Vegeta was just being mean on purpose to break cabba into shape, because he was too naive and his lack of pride.
There is also that line Champa said about him being a saiyan like him and having a chance at winning but at the same time i feel that was there just for plot convenience so i dont put too much weight into it

But like i said, i can accept their base form being weaker than final form frost during the U6 arc, i just dont think we have enough info to make it a definite fact

You make it seem like your using the manga scaling which doesnt translate in the anime considering base copy vegeta stomps ssj3 gotenks and base goku being equal to him and yes its canon in the anime considering goku reference the event in the black saga not to mention goku absorbing ssjgod in his ssj form and beerus confirming it.

In what episode did this happen? i cant believe i miss it, very interested

It was the episode where vegeta fought base black