"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Basako]

^^^ He stated he follows the outline fairly faithfully. We have no such confirmation from Toei in fact we've gotten the opposite from Toriyama himself.

So you think bringing back SSG was a Toriyama's idea written on the plot? Judging from both the anime and the manga Toriyama doesn't detailed battles at all except saying things like "Black beats Vegeta who after training in the RoSaT beats Black" so it's quite obvious both Toei and Toyotaro have full freedom over the battles as long as the outcome is the same.

We can't know for sure, as we haven't seen the original plot. But, why not, it would be just a line in the plot to explain that. As Toyo said he follows the outiline faithfully, my guess is that he did write that.

[Pantheon]

Forgive me if i'm being incoherent, I have a very bad flu and can't think very straight but i had a revelation after reading this manga chapter.

I think I just realized why so many people like the manga and I don't. It feels like a fanfiction, Toyotaro tries so hard when writing it to make it "logical" but while being so dead set on it makes it far less logical but he will never notice or try to correct them. The thing that makes Dragonball Dragonball is the countless mistakes and changes made because of laziness and things forgotten. All of these things make stuff happen in the story which was later corrected or retconed and that's how the good parts of the series came to be. I noticed a lot of die hard fans who obsess over the universe like the manga a lot and the conclusion I've come to it that they think "this is how I would write the manga" but most of these people obviously aren't very competent writers which is why it feels like a fan-fiction. There are two types of fan-fiction: fan-fiction that just makes cool stuff for the fun of it and fan-fiction that tries to make "logical" things happen based on their own interpretation of the series. Toyotaro is the latter. Which made me realize i really won't like the story once Toyotaro takes over, he's never going to create anything new it will always be rooted in the series before. He's never going to create Saiyans or Beerus or the completely different multiple universes, It will be stuff rooted in the series like Freezas son or one of the supreme kais from our universe is still alive or Daburas successor or another android. the successor to the Dragonball franchise should never have been someone who knows every little detail about the series because not even Toriyama himself did.

[TheMikado]

^^^ He stated he follows the outline fairly faithfully. We have no such confirmation from Toei in fact we've gotten the opposite from Toriyama himself.

So you think bringing back SSG was a Toriyama's idea written on the plot? Judging from both the anime and the manga Toriyama doesn't detailed battles at all except saying things like "Black beats Vegeta who after training in the RoSaT beats Black" so it's quite obvious both Toei and Toyotaro have full freedom over the battles as long as the outcome is the same.

No I don't think that's the case at all.
The more specific case I can think of off the top of my head is the Goku/Hit/Vegeta battle.

In both cases Goku was 10x as strong as Vegeta in SSB but for different reasons.
Its not far fetched to think that Toriyama's outline said "Make Goku 10x stronger" or "Make Vegeta 10x weaker than Goku as SSB" with no specifics.

The anime choose to introduce new lore on how the SSB form is peaceful and can be successfully combined with kaioken.
The manga choose to introduce new lore with the multiple SSB transformation rule.
We have no idea which Toriyama prefers but we've got a ton of new forms in both media so its not just the battles. They both seem to be free to create new lore altogether.

Anime: SSBxKK, SS Rage??
Manga: SSG Vegeta, Weakened SSB?

I have to be honest, its like they don't care at all about the IP or consistency whatsoever.

[emperior]

^^^ He stated he follows the outline fairly faithfully. We have no such confirmation from Toei in fact we've gotten the opposite from Toriyama himself.

So you think bringing back SSG was a Toriyama's idea written on the plot? Judging from both the anime and the manga Toriyama doesn't detailed battles at all except saying things like "Black beats Vegeta who after training in the RoSaT beats Black" so it's quite obvious both Toei and Toyotaro have full freedom over the battles as long as the outcome is the same.

No I don't think that's the case at all.
The more specific case I can think of off the top of my head is the Goku/Hit/Vegeta battle.

In both cases Goku was 10x as strong as Vegeta in SSB but for different reasons.
Its not far fetched to think that Toriyama's outline said "Make Goku 10x stronger" or "Make Vegeta 10x weaker than Goku as SSB" with no specifics.

The anime choose to introduce new lore on how the SSB form is peaceful and can be successfully combined with kaioken.
The manga choose to introduce new lore with the multiple SSB transformation rule.
We have no idea which Toriyama prefers but we've got a ton of new forms in both media so its not just the battles. They both seem to be free to create new lore altogether.

Anime: SSBxKK, SS Rage??
Manga: SSG Vegeta, Weakened SSB?

I have to be honest, its like they don't care at all about the IP or consistency whatsoever.

I prefer a lot more how the the anime handled these things. I like SS Rage, it was a cool way to give some relevance to Trunks. Bringing back Kaioken was also great cause we got an explanation as to why Goku dropped such a useful technique, and they also gave it some major drawback when paired with SSB.

[Pantheon]

Also Toyotaro would never create Super Saiyan rage or the genki dama sword because he's not that creative. There both too out of bounds of what the story presented thus far for him to even conceive them so they wouldn't be in the manga.

[The gr]

Also Toyotaro would never create Super Saiyan rage or the genki dama sword because he's not that creative. There both too out of bounds of what the story presented thus far for him to even conceive them so they wouldn't be in the manga.

Why do people assumed genkidama sword will never happen, because it might happen later on. Yay goku forgot the seal because of a silly gag because toriyama likes em like the go kart, Goku never kiss chichi and Goku forgetting the seal because he got a discount card instead of the seal

[Totamo]

^^^ He stated he follows the outline fairly faithfully. We have no such confirmation from Toei in fact we've gotten the opposite from Toriyama himself.

So you think bringing back SSG was a Toriyama's idea written on the plot? Judging from both the anime and the manga Toriyama doesn't detailed battles at all except saying things like "Black beats Vegeta who after training in the RoSaT beats Black" so it's quite obvious both Toei and Toyotaro have full freedom over the battles as long as the outcome is the same.

No I don't think that's the case at all.
The more specific case I can think of off the top of my head is the Goku/Hit/Vegeta battle.

In both cases Goku was 10x as strong as Vegeta in SSB but for different reasons.
Its not far fetched to think that Toriyama's outline said "Make Goku 10x stronger" or "Make Vegeta 10x weaker than Goku as SSB" with no specifics.

The anime choose to introduce new lore on how the SSB form is peaceful and can be successfully combined with kaioken.
The manga choose to introduce new lore with the multiple SSB transformation rule.
We have no idea which Toriyama prefers but we've got a ton of new forms in both media so its not just the battles. They both seem to be free to create new lore altogether.

Anime: SSBxKK, SS Rage??
Manga: SSG Vegeta, Weakened SSB?

I have to be honest, its like they don't care at all about the IP or consistency whatsoever.

The best stuff in dragon Ball happened because of inconsistencies. The entire red ribbon arc never would have happened if toriyama was consistent.

[Basako]

Forgive me if i'm being incoherent, I have a very bad flu and can't think very straight but i had a revelation after reading this manga chapter.

I think I just realized why so many people like the manga and I don't. It feels like a fanfiction, Toyotaro tries so hard when writing it to make it "logical" but while being so dead set on it makes it far less logical but he will never notice or try to correct them. The thing that makes Dragonball Dragonball is the countless mistakes and changes made because of laziness and things forgotten. All of these things make stuff happen in the story which was later corrected or retconed and that's how the good parts of the series came to be. I noticed a lot of die hard fans who obsess over the universe like the manga a lot and the conclusion I've come to it that they think "this is how I would write the manga" but most of these people obviously aren't very competent writers which is why it feels like a fan-fiction. There are two types of fan-fiction: fan-fiction that just makes cool stuff for the fun of it and fan-fiction that tries to make "logical" things happen based on their own interpretation of the series. Toyotaro is the latter. Which made me realize i really won't like the story once Toyotaro takes over, he's never going to create anything new it will always be rooted in the series before. He's never going to create Saiyans or Beerus or the completely different multiple universes, It will be stuff rooted in the series like Freezas son or one of the supreme kais from our universe is still alive or Daburas successor or another android. the successor to the Dragonball franchise should never have been someone who knows every little detail about the series because not even Toriyama himself did.

Don't worry, you will find a lot of manga haters here, I'm not one of them. I think the manga has a much better writting and I'm glad it takes some panels to explain things, otherwise we would have to be theorizing about stuff. Battles are better too, it's one of the highlights of Toyotaro, how he draws them. I think that you are right that Toyotaro tries to put more logic than the anime and he does it. Avoids things like the SSRage of Trunks or Black's origin plothole. And, well, the battle where clones of Black started appearing from a hole in the sky or how Trunks learned the Mafuba in less than a minute.

And it's not fan fiction, it's official and with direct implication of Toriyama, who says he is totally fine with Toyotaro's work. I'm really happy too, he is doing a great job. The manga has totally saved the DB Super experience to me, as the anime has been very dissapointing. At least untill the last arc, I'm actually liking the Survival arc in the anime.

If Toyo some day makes his own following to the story, we don't know how he will handle it, you are predicting too much and for the bad. I think he is not Toriyama and will never be, but, if somebody is following his work, I think he is the best we've got. I'd like him following if Toriyama stops.

[SansrivaaL]

I actually think the anime is much more on the fanfic side, we got Goku and Beerus releasing stand dragons on EP 12 (that was one of the most random things DBS has done so far)
We got SSJBKKx10, I mean I would understand Goku going SSJBKKx2 or 4, but 10? and Hit survived it? wtf? was there such a huge gap between them that multiplying Goku's SSJB power by 10 still wasnt enough? that was a lil overkill on Toei's side (not to mention it was a dangerous move that even Goku says he hasnt perfected it yet, and instantly whoops out x10....)
We got SSJRage, seriously, when we all thought Ultimate was the worst form, this comes in randomly with another double aura (I'll seriously be pissed at the manga if Toyo pulls SSJRage as well)
Black was... too much of a dream come true in the anime, can you find ONE and I mean ONE thing thats not great about him? (ok I'm exaggerating here but still) Black is literally too good of an antagonist for DB so he left us with him owning both Goku and Vegeta.
We got SSJB Vegito only to get removed near the end and have Trunks finish the job that SSJB Vegito couldnt, this is literally a dream come true fangasm shots for Future Trunks fans.

[ShinTenshin]

Also Toyotaro would never create Super Saiyan rage or the genki dama sword because he's not that creative. There both too out of bounds of what the story presented thus far for him to even conceive them so they wouldn't be in the manga.

Why do people assumed genkidama sword will never happen, because it might happen later on. Yay goku forgot the seal because of a silly gag because toriyama likes em like the go kart, Goku never kiss chichi and Goku forgetting the seal because he got a discount card instead of the seal

Sorry but the Genkidama Sword will never happen in the Manga !
Why ?
Because in Chapter 21, Black and Zamasu have killed absolutely all the remaining earthlings...

[TheMikado]

Forgive me if i'm being incoherent, I have a very bad flu and can't think very straight but i had a revelation after reading this manga chapter.

I think I just realized why so many people like the manga and I don't. It feels like a fanfiction, Toyotaro tries so hard when writing it to make it "logical" but while being so dead set on it makes it far less logical but he will never notice or try to correct them. The thing that makes Dragonball Dragonball is the countless mistakes and changes made because of laziness and things forgotten. All of these things make stuff happen in the story which was later corrected or retconed and that's how the good parts of the series came to be. I noticed a lot of die hard fans who obsess over the universe like the manga a lot and the conclusion I've come to it that they think "this is how I would write the manga" but most of these people obviously aren't very competent writers which is why it feels like a fan-fiction. There are two types of fan-fiction: fan-fiction that just makes cool stuff for the fun of it and fan-fiction that tries to make "logical" things happen based on their own interpretation of the series. Toyotaro is the latter. Which made me realize i really won't like the story once Toyotaro takes over, he's never going to create anything new it will always be rooted in the series before. He's never going to create Saiyans or Beerus or the completely different multiple universes, It will be stuff rooted in the series like Freezas son or one of the supreme kais from our universe is still alive or Daburas successor or another android. the successor to the Dragonball franchise should never have been someone who knows every little detail about the series because not even Toriyama himself did.

Don't worry, you will find a lot of manga haters here, I'm not one of them. I think the manga has a much better writting and I'm glad it takes some panels to explain things, otherwise we would have to be theorizing about stuff. Battles are better too, it's one of the highlights of Toyotaro, how he draws them. I think that you are right that Toyotaro tries to put more logic than the anime and he does it. Avoids things like the SSRage of Trunks or Black's origin plothole. And, well, the battle where clones of Black started appearing from a hole in the sky or how Trunks learned the Mafuba in less than a minute.

And it's not fan fiction, it's official and with direct implication of Toriyama, who says he is totally fine with Toyotaro's work. I'm really happy too, he is doing a great job. The manga has totally saved the DB Super experience to me, as the anime has been very dissapointing. At least untill the last arc, I'm actually liking the Survival arc in the anime.

If Toyo some day makes his own following to the story, we don't know how he will handle it, you are predicting too much and for the bad. I think he is not Toriyama and will never be, but, if somebody is following his work, I think he is the best we've got. I'd like him following if Toriyama stops.

I actually feel the exact same way. The manga completely saved Super for me. Watching the anime I felt like the animators and writers didn't actually "care" it bled through in their writing and characterization for me.
My favorite parts of Dragonball are the lore and character development so the anime has been very painful for me to watch personally. By contrast, Toyotaro seems to legitimately care about the series, the story points, and making sense of the things we are all logically thinking as fans. We've been wondering what a SSG Vegeta would look like and if he had obtained it for YEARS now. I would have even been ok if Toyotaro officially stated Vegeta doesn't have the ability. Instead he viewed it exactly how other fans do, if SSB is a combination of God ki and SSJ then logically both characters should have a form where they use just God ki and not SSJ. So Toyotaro answered a whole slew of questions for us. It seems obtaining God ki by itself is a prerequisite for SSB.

[ChaosLordBrandon]

So you think bringing back SSG was a Toriyama's idea written on the plot? Judging from both the anime and the manga Toriyama doesn't detailed battles at all except saying things like "Black beats Vegeta who after training in the RoSaT beats Black" so it's quite obvious both Toei and Toyotaro have full freedom over the battles as long as the outcome is the same.

No I don't think that's the case at all.
The more specific case I can think of off the top of my head is the Goku/Hit/Vegeta battle.

In both cases Goku was 10x as strong as Vegeta in SSB but for different reasons.
Its not far fetched to think that Toriyama's outline said "Make Goku 10x stronger" or "Make Vegeta 10x weaker than Goku as SSB" with no specifics.

The anime choose to introduce new lore on how the SSB form is peaceful and can be successfully combined with kaioken.
The manga choose to introduce new lore with the multiple SSB transformation rule.
We have no idea which Toriyama prefers but we've got a ton of new forms in both media so its not just the battles. They both seem to be free to create new lore altogether.

Anime: SSBxKK, SS Rage??
Manga: SSG Vegeta, Weakened SSB?

I have to be honest, its like they don't care at all about the IP or consistency whatsoever.

The best stuff in dragon Ball happened because of inconsistencies. The entire red ribbon arc never would have happened if toriyama was consistent.

Also the saiyan arc would not happen to.

the namek arc would not happen.

BOG would not have occured.

Beerus would not be around.

Android 18 and 17 would not be around

Buu would not have occured.

The angels would not be around.

No god higher than King Kai or Kami would be around.

Hakaishins would be not around.

Saiyans would not be around and Goku would not be one to.

SSJ would not be around to.

Gohan would not be around because he would have just been a normal human kid.

Saiyan forms in general would not be around.

[TheMikado]

I actually think the anime is much more on the fanfic side, we got Goku and Beerus releasing stand dragons on EP 12 (that was one of the most random things DBS has done so far)
We got SSJBKKx10, I mean I would understand Goku going SSJBKKx2 or 4, but 10? and Hit survived it? wtf? was there such a huge gap between them that multiplying Goku's SSJB power by 10 still wasnt enough? that was a lil overkill on Toei's side (not to mention it was a dangerous move that even Goku says he hasnt perfected it yet, and instantly whoops out x10....)
We got SSJRage, seriously, when we all thought Ultimate was the worst form, this comes in randomly with another double aura (I'll seriously be pissed at the manga if Toyo pulls SSJRage as well)
Black was... too much of a dream come true in the anime, can you find ONE and I mean ONE thing thats not great about him? (ok I'm exaggerating here but still) Black is literally too good of an antagonist for DB so he left us with him owning both Goku and Vegeta.
We got SSJB Vegito only to get removed near the end and have Trunks finish the job that SSJB Vegito couldnt, this is literally a dream come true fangasm shots for Future Trunks fans.

That's exactly how I feel.
SSB x KKx10 doesnt feel earned at all.
I could go with SSBxKK, but the x10 literally comes out of nowhere with no real training. The SS Rage also comes out of nowhere with no indication what it is or how/where Trunks got God ki, if it even is God ki. Same with the Sword. They feel fan fictiony because we have no explanation what they are, where they came from and they are so overpowered and over the top its weird.

SSG Vegeta by contrast feels logical because we always assumed SSG was a prerequisite to SSB. If anything Vegeta should have had this ability a long time ago. That's the difference between this and the other forms from the anime.

[LightBing]

Do you guys want me to create an Anime vs Manga thread so you can all go there?

[Totamo]

Also Toyotaro would never create Super Saiyan rage or the genki dama sword because he's not that creative. There both too out of bounds of what the story presented thus far for him to even conceive them so they wouldn't be in the manga.

Why do people assumed genkidama sword will never happen, because it might happen later on. Yay goku forgot the seal because of a silly gag because toriyama likes em like the go kart, Goku never kiss chichi and Goku forgetting the seal because he got a discount card instead of the seal

because all the earthlings are dead and that's how trunks did it in the anime.

[emperior]

Do you guys want me to create an Anime vs Manga thread so you can all go there?

Why not, at this point I think a thread like that must exist so we can use this one just to comment the manga

[TheMikado]

No I don't think that's the case at all.
The more specific case I can think of off the top of my head is the Goku/Hit/Vegeta battle.

In both cases Goku was 10x as strong as Vegeta in SSB but for different reasons.
Its not far fetched to think that Toriyama's outline said "Make Goku 10x stronger" or "Make Vegeta 10x weaker than Goku as SSB" with no specifics.

The anime choose to introduce new lore on how the SSB form is peaceful and can be successfully combined with kaioken.
The manga choose to introduce new lore with the multiple SSB transformation rule.
We have no idea which Toriyama prefers but we've got a ton of new forms in both media so its not just the battles. They both seem to be free to create new lore altogether.

Anime: SSBxKK, SS Rage??
Manga: SSG Vegeta, Weakened SSB?

I have to be honest, its like they don't care at all about the IP or consistency whatsoever.

The best stuff in dragon Ball happened because of inconsistencies. The entire red ribbon arc never would have happened if toriyama was consistent.

Also the saiyan arc would not happen to.

the namek arc would not happen.

BOG would not have occured.

Beerus would not be around.

Android 18 and 17 would not be around

Buu would not have occured.

The angels would not be around.

No god higher than King Kai oe Kami would be around.

Hakaishins would be not around.

Saiyans would not be around and Goku would not be one to.

SSJ would not be around to.

Gohan would not be around because he would have just been a normal human kid.

Saiyan forms in general would not be around.

You guys are completely missing the point. I'm not talking about consistency within the narrative.
I'm talking about consistency in the handling of the IP.

We have the movies showing Goku at 70% Beerus at SSG
while SSB x KK x10 is less than Beerus in the anime.
Meanwhile that form doesnt exist at all in the manga but SSG Vegeta does.

For reference this would be like the Star Wars franchise having a movie where Luke is much stronger than Yoda
Retelling it in tv show where Yoda is much stronger than Luke by a wide margin
Then having a book retelling where Yoda/Luke doesn't have the ability to use the force at all...

We have NEVER had this problem in the history of Dragonball before. The retellings were fairly closely followed and consistent among each other.
The closest we have had to this level of inconsistency across media is the Buu/Vegito conflicts which are much more minor by comparison.
Its as if the longer the series goes on the more different writers can do whatever they want with the franchise and is part of the "official" canon now.

[LightBing]

Do you guys want me to create an Anime vs Manga thread so you can all go there?

Why not, at this point I think a thread like that must exist so we can use this one just to comment the manga

I'm going to create one now. It's exhausting to see the same conversations every time a new chapter comes out.

[ChaosLordBrandon]

Forgive me if i'm being incoherent, I have a very bad flu and can't think very straight but i had a revelation after reading this manga chapter.

I think I just realized why so many people like the manga and I don't. It feels like a fanfiction, Toyotaro tries so hard when writing it to make it "logical" but while being so dead set on it makes it far less logical but he will never notice or try to correct them. The thing that makes Dragonball Dragonball is the countless mistakes and changes made because of laziness and things forgotten. All of these things make stuff happen in the story which was later corrected or retconed and that's how the good parts of the series came to be. I noticed a lot of die hard fans who obsess over the universe like the manga a lot and the conclusion I've come to it that they think "this is how I would write the manga" but most of these people obviously aren't very competent writers which is why it feels like a fan-fiction. There are two types of fan-fiction: fan-fiction that just makes cool stuff for the fun of it and fan-fiction that tries to make "logical" things happen based on their own interpretation of the series. Toyotaro is the latter. Which made me realize i really won't like the story once Toyotaro takes over, he's never going to create anything new it will always be rooted in the series before. He's never going to create Saiyans or Beerus or the completely different multiple universes, It will be stuff rooted in the series like Freezas son or one of the supreme kais from our universe is still alive or Daburas successor or another android. the successor to the Dragonball franchise should never have been someone who knows every little detail about the series because not even Toriyama himself did.

This and the Dragon Ball room would be successor's to the franchise.

They said that work on the anime with Toei and games, but nothing about the manga which is just promo and is never even that popular to be honest, most people just watch the anime.

And after this chapter a lot of people don't line the manga now, read Geekdom101 or Rhymestyle comment section on this topic for proof, everybody is shitting on Toyo and the manga for this chapter everywhere and even some forums like that are spanish and japanese are destroying the manga for this garbage chapter.

[OLKv3]

It's funny to me how people are calling the manga fanfiction while ignoring the anime created Kaioken x10 SSB and Trunks' Super Saiyan Rage and Spirit Bomb Lightsword

I mean hello? Are fans this shortsighted lol? If you call one medium fanfiction, then both are fanfiction it's just that simple

Anyway, the Vegeta thing is a clear ripoff of what Trunks did in Multiverse.