Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

[pacz360]

Let's not kid ourselves. Dragon Ball stopped being a passion project halfway through. This isn't a new thing.

But at least you could tell the author still loved and understood his works. Now it feels abandoned for the sake of making money. The artistic integrity feels like it's been sucked out of it ..

I'm not so sure about that, the buu saga and the cell saga are considered by many to be the 2 worst put together sagas in the entire 42 volume for being plothole ridden and contrived beyond belief.

You once said toriyama was better with editors, the cell saga is such a mess because of that and why i always stand by the fact that dragon Ball sooner than it did.

Toyo's manga is a fanfic.

Toei's anime is a cashgrab.

This is modern dragon Ball. If you don't like this, you better leave now.

Define many most people love the cell saga outside of the kazenshuu and feel like the series should've ended there instead of the buu saga before gt and super.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

The reason it get frowned upon due to lack of explanation.
I don't hate trunks getting ikari but the lacking explanation irks the hell outta me.

I mean this is the same franchisee where we still haven't got an actual explanation for SS3 lol.

Goku accomplished the form in the afterlife while dead for seven years while trunks accomplished his form less than a day

My point was we still don't know why SS3 has long hair or no eyebrows. But Goku got SS in a fit of rage, no explaination was given to how or why Goten and Trunks got SS so young and with very little training (Goten was training with Chichi and Trunks obviously wasn't doing anything intense since Vegeta never knew about it) so there shouldn't be a problem re: Ikari.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Let's not kid ourselves. Dragon Ball stopped being a passion project halfway through. This isn't a new thing.

How and when was Dragon Ball ever a "passion project"?

At the beginning. When Toriyama wrote Dragon Ball because he wanted to, not because he was forced to or wanted money.

Under that condition it stopped being a passion project after the first arc.

[ChronoTwigger]

Manga greater sin: how horrible are panel sequences - the narration flow like a slideshow with very very poor metanarration.
Despite Toyotaro being skilled and quick, you'll clearly see is not a pro by longtime.
It's tooooo fucking didascalic.

Anime was horrible since U6 arc, now is superior in all fields. While the narration need at least double the episodes to unfold better, but that's an issue of both media.

As for "manga is betta 'kause Vegeta is stronger, Goku suxs...", that's not how you compare two media.
My hate for kids grow stronger each day.

[Totamo]

But at least you could tell the author still loved and understood his works. Now it feels abandoned for the sake of making money. The artistic integrity feels like it's been sucked out of it ..

I'm not so sure about that, the buu saga and the cell saga are considered by many to be the 2 worst put together sagas in the entire 42 volume for being plothole ridden and contrived beyond belief.

You once said toriyama was better with editors, the cell saga is such a mess because of that and why i always stand by the fact that dragon Ball sooner than it did.

Toyo's manga is a fanfic.

Toei's anime is a cashgrab.

This is modern dragon Ball. If you don't like this, you better leave now.

Define many most people love the cell saga outside of the kazenshuu and feel like the series should've ended there instead of the buu saga before gt and super.

Anyone who gives a damn about writing and doesn't try the justify the plotholes in that arc.

Oh and not Gohan fans.

[Doctor.]

At the beginning. When Toriyama wrote Dragon Ball because he wanted to, not because he was forced to or wanted money.

But that happens to most mangaka.

Toriyama, Kubo, Kishi, Mashima, Togashi, Miura, Inoue,Watsuki.

The only mangakas that still care for their work while being in the final arc; Matsui, Sorachi, Araki

I know it happens to most. I'm saying we shouldn't pretend that Dragon Ball being a cashgrab is a recent thing, because it's not.

Under that condition it stopped being a passion project after the first arc.

Toriyama did express a desire to continue it past the first arc out of his own free will at some point. But yeah, pretty much. It stopped being a passion project one year into serialization.

[Bansho64]

Manga with a bullet. It's much more enjoyable IMO. The art, the story, you name it. And I actually check back with it for regular updates, unlike Super. I slack on the anime tbh. I've skipped episodes and, even when I try and binge watch, I skip a lot of boring stuff because it bores me. I know they're two different things, but the manga just attracts my attention more and hypes me up more.

[Araki]

My biggest problem with the manga is how Toyotaro doesn't have the balls to be creative.
Stuff like SSB+Kaioken, Black's unique attacks, SSI FT Trunks and Genki sword are all moments that stood out for me in an amazing way because they are new stuff that never happened before.

Now looking to the manga:

- Goku vs Hit
Goku uses SSG, a form that supposedly he shouldn't even be able to use it anymore. Fails to impress in a good way, because it's not a new thing like SSB+Kaioken and that's what made that fight so special in the anime. In the manga it's just another normal fight.

- Black's unique attacks
Dragon Ball is not limited like other battle shonens where characters can only do attacks of their type. You can be creative with what you want to do with your characters and that's what Toei did with Black. I love how they showed his growth using his attacks - Starts with a Ki blade, it becomes a sword and then he creates a scythe.
What Toyotaro did?! Nothing unique. Just used Goku's attacks and Kaioshin's attacks. I'm pretty sure Black wouldn't even have SSR in the manga, if it wasn't for Toriyama.

- Super Saiyan Ikari and Genki Sword
Once again, no way Toyotaro has the balls to do something daring like this.
I don't even know if FT Trunks is the main character of his own arc in the manga. He doesn't do anything impressive. Oh yeah he does the Taiyoken... He says Gohan was the one who taught him, even though Gohan never used Taiyoken. Why would his Master teach him something that he never used in the first place?! Will FT Trunks pull off a Makankosappo too?!

Toyotaro-kun?! Toyotaro-kun???!

Yeah, i think the Dragon Ball Super manga is what happens when you give control to a typical boring fanboy who always wants to see more of the same, lacking any sense of creativity. The Black arc in his version lost pretty much everything that made it unique in the anime, it's just another generic arc.

Amazingly, even though Toyotaro plays it extremely safe, he still manages to create inconsistencies and come up with stuff that makes no sense or contradict itself.

I have the feeling that, while the anime staff knows what they want to do with Toriyama's outline (for better and worse), Toyotaro just comes up with stuff on the spot to connect the plot points. And let's face it, Toriyama's outlines are probably very thin, so they leave room for that.

[The gr]

My biggest problem with the manga is how Toyotaro doesn't have the balls to be creative.
Stuff like SSB+Kaioken, Black's unique attacks, SSI FT Trunks and Genki sword are all moments that stood out for me in an amazing way because they are new stuff that never happened before.

Now looking to the manga:

- Goku vs Hit
Goku uses SSG, a form that supposedly he shouldn't even be able to use it anymore. Fails to impress in a good way, because it's not a new thing like SSB+Kaioken and that's what made that fight so special in the anime. In the manga it's just another normal fight.

- Black's unique attacks
Dragon Ball is not limited like other battle shonens where characters can only do attacks of their type. You can be creative with what you want to do with your characters and that's what Toei did with Black. I love how they showed his growth using his attacks - Starts with a Ki blade, it becomes a sword and then he creates a scythe.
What Toyotaro did?! Nothing unique. Just used Goku's attacks and Kaioshin's attacks. I'm pretty sure Black wouldn't even have SSR in the manga, if it wasn't for Toriyama.

- Super Saiyan Ikari and Genki Sword
Once again, no way Toyotaro has the balls to do something daring like this.
I don't even know if FT Trunks is the main character of his own arc in the manga. He doesn't do anything impressive. Oh yeah he does the Taiyoken... He says Gohan was the one who taught him, even though Gohan never used Taiyoken. Why would his Master teach him something that he never used in the first place?! Will FT Trunks pull off a Makankosappo too?!

Toyotaro-kun?! Toyotaro-kun???!

Yeah, i think the Dragon Ball Super manga is what happens when you give control to a typical boring fanboy who always wants to see more of the same, lacking any sense of creativity. The Black arc in his version lost pretty much everything that made it unique in the anime, it's just another generic arc.

Amazingly, even though Toyotaro plays it extremely safe, he still manages to create inconsistencies and come up with stuff that makes no sense or contradict itself.

I have the feeling that, while the anime staff knows what they want to do with Toriyama's outline (for better and worse), Toyotaro just comes up with stuff on the spot to connect the plot points. And let's face it, Toriyama's outlines are probably very thin, so they leave room for that.

I don't why everyone call this product uncreative when it comes to figth,some figth are creative like goku vs botamo and frost,trunks figth in chapter 15,base goku vs hit and the current chapter show us an interesting strategy from Vegeta

LMAO this thread started with legit criticism and then it become a thread with a lot of bashing to this product.so do people still believe That a lot of Peeps overate the monga, through that is complete bs

[mfwlegend3]

I like how this went from constructive criticism to bashing with subs being thrown in. Only a few pages after the thread's creation? I'm surprised.

[TheMikado]

I like how this went from constructive criticism to bashing with subs being thrown in. Only a few pages after the thread's creation? I'm surprised.

Did you the first post?? It's literally been that since the threads creation.

[emperior]

Passion work or not, Toriyama is the only one who truly understands Dragon Ball. I enjoy the later works but it's undeniable there's much more fan service than there was back in the time. That doesn't mean Toriyama didn't give fanservice, but nowadays it's much easier to know what fans want, which is probably something Toriyama doesn't know/care as he's from a different generation.

By the way GT, which I don't like much, didn't have much fan-service (unless I'm completely wrong, I never felt like it capitalized on fans or else we would have seen Gotenks, SSJ3 Vegeta/Gohan and SSJ4 Gohan, and Broly return instead of #17)
No wonder GT is the show with more fan-mangas and more fan-created forms.

[FortuneSSJ]

And let's face it, Toriyama's outlines are probably very thin, so they leave room for that.

Yeah, Toriyama is not a saint here. But for better or for worse I want him to be with us. No one knows his product better than him.

I don't why everyone call this product uncreative when it comes to figth,some figth are creative like goku vs botamo and frost,trunks figth in chapter 15,base goku vs hit and the current chapter show us an interesting strategy from Vegeta

Can't speak for Araki, but when I say he's not creative I'm talking about bringing new stuff to the table, like the examples I mentioned before (SSB+Kaioken, Black's unique attacks, etc..)
I enjoy his battle choreography most of the time, but there are some improvements I would like to see. Working on "blow impacts" is something he desperately needs. The blows usually lack power compared to Toriyama's back then.

[Totamo]

Passion work or not, Toriyama is the only one who truly understands Dragon Ball. I enjoy the later works but it's undeniable there's much more fan service than there was back in the time. That doesn't mean Toriyama didn't give fanservice, but nowadays it's much easier to know what fans want, which is probably something Toriyama doesn't know/care as he's from a different generation.

By the way GT, which I don't like much, didn't have much fan-service (unless I'm completely wrong, I never felt like it capitalized on fans or else we would have seen Gotenks, SSJ3 Vegeta/Gohan and SSJ4 Gohan, and Broly return instead of #17)
No wonder GT is the show with more fan-mangas and more fan-created forms.

Actually it did, remember when it released all the villains form hell? Or SSj4 Gogeta, Gogeta period,

[Lord Beerus]

Both the anime and manga's interpretations of Toriyama's plot outline have their strengths and weakness.

The Champa arc in the manga, apart for the Goku/Botamo fight, it paled in comparison to what we got in the anime. Piccolo jobbed out in the worst way, Hit was a one-trick pony, Frost had zero character, and there was far more emphasis on the notion that Goku and Vegeta could have single-handedly won the whole tournament on their own, in comparison to what we got in the anime, where the U6 fighters actually put up much more of a fight, especially in regards to Hit.

The Future Trunks arc have had their ups and down in the anime and manga. But how the manga sticks the landing in regards to the conclusion of story will be a big factor to me as to much it how much it holds up to the anime version of the story-arc which I love despite it's wonky power scaling and questionable narrative choices

One thing that bothers me about the manga more than anything is the characterisation and development of Goku Black and Zamasu. Those characters drive that arc, and are primarily responsible for why I love the arc so much. Especially in the case with Goku Black. And how they've been handled in the manga has left quite a bit to be desired.

Goku battling Zamasu in the anime was huge a part of Zamasu descent into darkness and a very important aspect within the plot itself. After meeting Goku however and losing to him quickly in a sparring match, his views radically changed and his distrustful nature towards mortals only grew. Annoyed at Goku's carefree attitude and lack of respect, his distaste for the gods not quelling the dangerous nature of mortals evolved to a radicalism-level. Shocked at how a mortal like Goku could gain a power rivalling gods, let alone even obtaining such power, and so recklessly challenge a God and defeat him easily, Zamasu came to sternly believe that mortal life by nature is an evil. It's that meeting with Goku that also serves as the core purpose for why he steal Goku's body in the first place. The anime makes scenario with Zamasu's distrusts of mortals, and later Goku specifically, more logical because he actually meets and fights Goku and personally comes to the conclusion that mortal having that kind of power, let alone the power to challenge Gods, is a potentially great danger to the universe and a grave mistake of the Gods to let it happen in the first place. The manga just glosses over that aspect by having Zamasu's only knowledge of Goku be watching him through Godtube clips. Take all of the that development out and Goku Black loses all of his unique symbolism and representation. In the manga, he sees a few clips on Godtube of Goku fighting in the Universe 6/7 tournament is all like "Yeah. Fuck this guy." Seriously? I don't like that lack of motivation as why he would choose Goku. There's literally no point to the concept of Goku Black even existing in the manga. Zamasu could have switched bodies with anyone in the manga with how more ambiguous and shallow they make his motivation towards hating mortals. For all intents and purposes, he could have swapped bodies with Hit or Vegeta.

I also really don't like how Goku Black is portrayed as less of a menace and has more instances of grasping the idiot ball. His method of getting stronger, was needlessly convoluted and just outright dumb, when you realise the abilities he has at his disposal. I mean, if Goku Black knew how Zenkai's work, why didn't he just have Future Zamasu blast some holes in him and then heal again, to efficiently farm those cheap power-ups? If Goku Black knows that he can transform into Super Saiyan Rose, then why doesn't he have Zamasu beat him up and Zenkai his way into the form? This makes Black seem incredibly stupid, especially considering that Zamasu can heal him. So he could have done this a long time ago with Zamasu and it would much more safer and efficient. But he didn't. He decided to be a reckless idiot and hope that Vegeta doesn't kill him very quickly or that Zamasu miraculously arrived to save his ass before it was too late.

Another negative I have towards the manga in regards the manga's treatment of Goku Black and Zamasu is how Goku Black is made to play the "submissive" role in the dynamic relationship of Goku Black and Zamasu. What made that paring so great in the anime was that they never turned on each-other, they both realised how much they needed each other and how they respected themselves. Here in the manga, it just comes across as it that Goku Black is Zamasu' lackey and underling. Despite the fact it was Goku Black who got the ball rolling with the entire plot of the arc.

I also hate how Goku Black is made to play the "submissive" role in the dynamic relationship of Goku Black and Zamasu. What made that paring so great in the anime was that they never turned on each-other, they both realised how much they needed each other and how they respected themselves. Here in the manga, it just comes across as it that Goku Black is Zamaus' lackey and underling. Despite the fact it was Goku Black who got the ball rolling with the entire plot of the arc. Toyotaro is dropping the ball with Goku Black hard.

I've very much more personally invested in the anime, despite it having many rough edges. But I also like the manga a lot for its more consistent art style, streamlined story and workable power scale. But it comes at the cost of actual character development or breather periods which helped the story feel more engrossing and less rushed. Yes, the manga has better pacing but the overall narrative, especially if you imagine a scenario where the anime doesn't exist, feels so half baked. Nevertheless, I think the manga and anime do well in complementing each other and cancelling out their weakness and playing up to their strengths and both mediums deserves their fair share of praise and criticism for what they've done well and what they haven't done well. I mean, considering that the manga is basically a promotion tool for the anime, the fact that it manages to handle some aspects of the story better than the anime is something that truly had to be admired for what is basically a glorified advertisement of a show that was blatantly created for the purpose of pimping out more toys and cards.

In conclusion, I will say that the power scaling is far more logical, or at least workable, in the manga and there is certainly less fat the narrative. And art style remain consistent and very good. But that's all the manga has over the anime at this point. It just lacks that "wow" factor that the anime gave us at times and it doesn't do enough to make me care for what happens. Having power consistency is one thing, but making me care about the fate of the characters and being personally invested in them is another. And the manga just doesn't cut the mustard for me in that regard in comparison to the anime, despite the anime's shortcoming in itself.

[Yomi]

People seem to automatically prefer the manga, but I Think the anime still impresses me more than the manga does.
Probably because the manga is very fast paced, and monthly. The manga often seems rushed but still filled with big text
boxes of exposition; but I suppose Goku's back seat in this arc and his "maturity" is probably well received.

[The gr]

People seem to automatically prefer the manga, but I Think the anime still impresses me more than the manga does.
Probably because the manga is very fast paced, and monthly. The manga often seems rushed but still filled with big text
boxes of exposition; but I suppose Goku's back seat in this arc and his "maturity" is probably well received.

are we're reading the same thread, everyone is criticizing Goku absense and preferring the anime instead, that is understandable because the anime​ is the main product and is the one that properly attached us with these character

[HybridSaiyan]

Characters aren't OOC in the manga.

[TheMikado]

Passion work or not, Toriyama is the only one who truly understands Dragon Ball. I enjoy the later works but it's undeniable there's much more fan service than there was back in the time. That doesn't mean Toriyama didn't give fanservice, but nowadays it's much easier to know what fans want, which is probably something Toriyama doesn't know/care as he's from a different generation.

By the way GT, which I don't like much, didn't have much fan-service (unless I'm completely wrong, I never felt like it capitalized on fans or else we would have seen Gotenks, SSJ3 Vegeta/Gohan and SSJ4 Gohan, and Broly return instead of #17)
No wonder GT is the show with more fan-mangas and more fan-created forms.

Actually it did, remember when it released all the villains form hell? Or SSj4 Gogeta, Gogeta period,

Gogeta actually makes sense though... It really does.. and the Super 17 arc was all about old villains returning literally they contained it to a single arc that was only a few episodes long. You would be hard pressed to find anyone that thinks the Super 17 arc is representative of the entire series.

[TheMikado]

I think Lord Beerus write up is very good, and really comes down to what you value and like in the Dragonball series. It also made me realize I genuinely dislike all Z Dragonball villains, meaning to actually dislike their characterization. That being said I have little invested in Zamasu and Black, Beerus, or anyone else they've met so the overall Story lacks something I genuinely care about in the anime. I will say the villains are better and less stale in the anime but for me the villains always were so I never really noticed. What I do care about is lore and character development to which I defer to the manga especially Trunks development.