Does Ki size matter?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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Does Ki size matter?

Post by BrollysKin » Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:20 pm

I was thinking about this topic/question for a while now. I want to know if there is a direct correlation between the size of a ki blast (finishing move or not) and the damage/impact it has on an individual.

Take for example Piccolo's makankosappo, it's circumfrence is quite small. and would be about the thickness of his arm. But yet the effects of the attack is devastating, even being able to pierce through Raditz who is approximatly 3-4X stronger than Piccolo. If Piccolo had expanded the beam to make it as thick/wide as say a kamehameha, would it have been a weaker attack?

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What about Kuririn's Kienzan? A little bigger in width than a plate, but about as thick as a deck of cards. When fighting Nappa, a kikoho (a very WIDE blast mind you) isn't even able to touch him. SO when Kuririn fires off his Kienzan, Nappa thinks nothing of it and almost dies because of his ignorance. Can we say "oh, well Kuririn is stronger than Tenshinhan"? No we can't Tenshinhan has proven to us many times he is arguably stronger than Tenshinhan. So why would Kuririn's blast have a more lethal effect on an opponent? This even goes with Freeza! An opponent way out of Kuririn's league.

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You might say "these are all older episodes/chapters, nothing like this happens in the newer stuff". Well lets take a look at Vegeta's final flash. A very powerful attack that is seemingly a little smaller than a kamehameha. That cut through Perfect Cell like butter. Cell was much stronger than Vegeta when he used it.

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Very rarely it seems that when a character uses a substantially larger (size) attack that he gets the least results. This can be found in Tenshinhan's kikoho, Chaozu's self destruct, Goku's Namek Genki Dama, Freeza's death ball, 16's hell flash and Vegeta's final explosion. Just to name a few.

So in conclusion, how can Kuririn's Kienzan cut up Freeza, while Vegeta's final explosion that he put every ounce of his being into not kill Buu? I wouldn't say it's because Buu is so much stronger (granted he regenerated, but his pieces should have been destroyed as well) because Freeza was a lot stronger than Kuririn.

Does size truly matter?
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Post by Xyex » Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:59 pm

No, I don't really think size has anything to do with it. Unless, of course, you're comparing the exact same attack to itself. In which case a larger version is either 'less dense' or just has that much more energy in it. I know it's a game, but take the Legend of the Super Saiya-jin for the SNES as an example here. At the end, if you use a full powered Kamehameha, Spirit Bomb, SBC, Masenko, or Galic Gun they fill the screen because there's a lot more power behind them.

But to get down to the specifics of your examples I'll go over what I think on each case.
Take for example Piccolo's makankosappo, it's circumfrence is quite small. and would be about the thickness of his arm. But yet the effects of the attack is devastating, even being able to pierce through Raditz who is approximatly 3-4X stronger than Piccolo. If Piccolo had expanded the beam to make it as thick/wide as say a kamehameha, would it have been a weaker attack?
The SBC (sue me, it's faster to type) looks specifically designed to puncture. Hell, it looks like a frigging drill. I would say, in this instance, smaller is better. If it were too large it wouldn't be able to achieve the desired effect. Either simply due to being too large or to the energy not being compacted/concentrated/focused enough to punch through the target.

And yeah, if he'd simply widened the beam without adding more energy, it would have had less effect, IMO. I see it a lot like weight displacement. A normal sized SBC is like sticking a cane into the snow. An overly wide SBC is like walking on the snow in snow shoes. Same ammount of power, greater area of contact, less force in any one place. Large attacks, like the Spirit Bomb Goku used against Freeza seem to rely more on simply overwhelming the opponent with massive ammounts of energy.
What about Kuririn's Kienzan? A little bigger in width than a plate, but about as thick as a deck of cards. When fighting Nappa, a kikoho (a very WIDE blast mind you) isn't even able to touch him. SO when Kuririn fires off his Kienzan, Nappa thinks nothing of it and almost dies because of his ignorance. Can we say "oh, well Kuririn is stronger than Tenshinhan"? No we can't Tenshinhan has proven to us many times he is arguably stronger than Tenshinhan. So why would Kuririn's blast have a more lethal effect on an opponent? This even goes with Freeza! An opponent way out of Kuririn's league.
The Tri-beam is a powerful 'hitting force'. It's like the Kamehameha, it's a brunt force impact type attack. The Destructo Disc is, like the SBC, a specialty attack. It's designed, specifically, to slice. My thought is that energy discs like that have the energy focused into a really narrow and thing 'blade' around the edge with lots of concentrated energy allowing them to slice through even things that are considerably stronger than the creator of the attack.

Where as the 'hitting force' attacks spread the energy out over a wider area thus doing less damage to a single location. The more focused the impact, the more energy is hitting a single point, and the more damage is done to that point. So a weaker focused attack could do more damage than a stronger unfocused one.
You might say "these are all older episodes/chapters, nothing like this happens in the newer stuff". Well lets take a look at Vegeta's final flash. A very powerful attack that is seemingly a little smaller than a kamehameha. That cut through Perfect Cell like butter. Cell was much stronger than Vegeta when he used it.
In this case it's sheer power. The Final Flash is definately a 'hitting force' kind of attack. But it was a HUGE Final Flash. Vegeta poured ungodly ammounts of energy into it and kept it pretty focused (he managed to avoid blowing up the Earth with it, despite Trunks' fears) which means that, even though it was big, it was also packing a pretty big punch. As with the Spirit Bomb this would be a case of trying to overwhelm the other with the sheer ammount of energy.

That's my thoughts on the matter. I put quite a bit of thought into this for my Fanfiction so I know how I want an attack to function and what kind of overall look and effect it should have. 8)
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Post by Duo » Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:06 am

It's not the size that matters, it's how you use it.

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Post by caejones » Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:22 am

Wow, I didn't remotely suspect that was a penis joke until seeing the word penis in the post. Does that make me innocent or a socially isolated geek-wad?

I'll reference one of the TaiChi books whose name and author I don't remember again ...
When it gets to the discussions about jing projection, the two techniques that had warnings on them (This technique is designed to do serious internal damage to your opponent; only use in emergency situations) were the 'spiraling jing' and 'cutting jing'. For sake of argument, the Spiraling technique seems very similar to makankusapo, and the 'cutting' technique seems like a blast used by Freeza on Vegeta near the end of his life.

It's easiest to equate it to pressure (force/area), I guess... and Xyex did an awesome job of explaining that.
Think of being hit with a bullet versus a cannon ball. The bullet will probably go through one's body, maybe even coming out the other side, causing area-based damage in the process. A cannonball can easily take your head off, or it can hit you in the got and knock you off your feet and break bones and such depending on your muscle/bone/fat/stance/what's behind you. So it's a lot harder to predict what damage a cannonball will do, but you still wouldn't want to be hit with it.
Then of course, lots of DBZ ki attacks explode and burn things. So would you rather have your whole body hit by a huge burst of fire with the force of a cannon ball, or a blazing white-hot drill? Well, with the drill it depends where it hits; the fireball... not so much, but there's the chance you'll just be thrown down and stop-drop-and roll and be able to get up afterward.

Uh, yeah, I really shouldn't talk without a word processor and a peer-review. :(
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Post by The S » Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:54 pm

caejones wrote:Wow, I didn't remotely suspect that was a penis joke until seeing the word penis in the post. Does that make me innocent or a socially isolated geek-wad?

I'll reference one of the TaiChi books whose name and author I don't remember again ...
When it gets to the discussions about jing projection, the two techniques that had warnings on them (This technique is designed to do serious internal damage to your opponent; only use in emergency situations) were the 'spiraling jing' and 'cutting jing'. For sake of argument, the Spiraling technique seems very similar to makankusapo, and the 'cutting' technique seems like a blast used by Freeza on Vegeta near the end of his life.

It's easiest to equate it to pressure (force/area), I guess... and Xyex did an awesome job of explaining that.
Think of being hit with a bullet versus a cannon ball. The bullet will probably go through one's body, maybe even coming out the other side, causing area-based damage in the process. A cannonball can easily take your head off, or it can hit you in the got and knock you off your feet and break bones and such depending on your muscle/bone/fat/stance/what's behind you. So it's a lot harder to predict what damage a cannonball will do, but you still wouldn't want to be hit with it.
Then of course, lots of DBZ ki attacks explode and burn things. So would you rather have your whole body hit by a huge burst of fire with the force of a cannon ball, or a blazing white-hot drill? Well, with the drill it depends where it hits; the fireball... not so much, but there's the chance you'll just be thrown down and stop-drop-and roll and be able to get up afterward.

Uh, yeah, I really shouldn't talk without a word processor and a peer-review. :(
Actually, in matters with real-life qi (and most likely, the ki in DBZ), that's quite accurate.
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Post by Terra-jin » Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:50 pm

It depends on how strong the energy wave is. You need the same amount of energy to block it; the size of your opponent's blast determines over what area you must focus your energy.
If you get hit by a small blast and you protect over your whole body, you'd get hit because the energy didn't meet the same amount of energy on its path.
On the other hand, if your opponent's blast is wide and you protect only a small area, you saved your wedding tackles but you'd have severe burns on the rest of your body :P

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Post by Tyro » Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:40 pm

It tends to be inconsistent sometimes. One example being Goku's "Super Kamehameha" being larger than his Kamehameha against Raditz, even though Goku was by all means more powerful than his previous self at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, and he had no reason to hold back any ki from his Kamehameha against Raditz, considering he didn't stand a chance any other way.

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Post by Xyex » Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:08 pm

Tyro wrote:It tends to be inconsistent sometimes. One example being Goku's "Super Kamehameha" being larger than his Kamehameha against Raditz, even though Goku was by all means more powerful than his previous self at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, and he had no reason to hold back any ki from his Kamehameha against Raditz, considering he didn't stand a chance any other way.
That's not inconsistant. More powerful =/= bigger all the time. If the energy is compressed tightly then a smaller attack can be stronger than a bigger one.
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Post by Tyro » Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:46 pm

Is there actually any evidence stating that smaller, more focused ki blasts are more powerful, or more likely to pierce something than a larger blast?

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Post by BrollysKin » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:33 pm

Tyro wrote:Is there actually any evidence stating that smaller, more focused ki blasts are more powerful, or more likely to pierce something than a larger blast?
I thought I just gave a handful of examples.
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Post by Tyro » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:55 pm

Most of them do have explanations though.
Tenshinhan's Ki-ko-ho
Nappa was way too strong for Tenshinhan to stand a chance against. Especially after he powered up for the first time and broke off Tenshinhan's arm off, as well as hit him a little. I don't think how large the attack was had much to do with it.
Chaozu's self destruct
If Tenshinhan's Ki-ko-ho couldn't do anything to Nappa besides rip the "wings" off his armor, I really don't think Chaozu's explosion, which barely hurt the back of the armor would be any stronger if it was a smaller explosion.
Goku's Namek Genki Dama
Even Freeza stated he thought he was dead, and as you can see he was badly injured. How he survived is anyone's guess.
Freeza's death ball
Freeza himself stated that the only reason planet Namek wasn't instantly destroyed was because he held back too much power.
16's hell flash
Wasn't #16's attack one continuous blast that would keep hammering Cell, considering Cell was in the same hole #16 was firing into? So it wasn't just a large ki attack?
Vegeta's final explosion
You said yourself that SSj2 Majin Vegeta when compared to Majin Boo (post-enraged) was like nothing.

Ki isn't a naturally destructive force, but it can be composed that way, as an unstable energy. Size and Concentration don't have as much relevance as the overall composition.
Last edited by Tyro on Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by BrollysKin » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:06 am

Great points, thank you for your input.

Just to go over a few:

Tenshinhans Kikoho: Yes he was injured, yes Nappa was powered up. But look at Kuririn's Kienzan. If Vegeta hadn't told him to move out of the way it would have slashed right through Nappa. Now Kuririn is weaker than Tenshinhan (that's pretty much irrefutable manga canon) I made the assumption that even with his arm blown off that he would have been at "about" equal strength as Kuririn, obviously that point isn't based off of hard evidence but none the less I feel it holds some ground. Even if Tenshinhan was weaker than Nappa, we should have seen some effect similar to what he did at the Tenkaichi Budokai years ago.

Goku's Genki Dama: You even said that no-one knows how Freeza was alive, by all accounts he should have been wiped out. But how he lost only his tail baffles me. :lol:

Freezas Death Ball: I was actually refering to when he used it on Trunks. Granted you may argue it wasn't canon so feel free to throw it out. But I saw it as an example of a larger attack causing less damage than say if Freeza had used a more "concentrated attack" such as a death beam.

16's Hell flash: You got me there, give yourself a pat on the back. :D See we're all friends here.

Vegeta's Final Explosion: Is there actually a "canon" name for this attack? I haven't heard of one besides the video games. Personally I think it sounds sexual... But nevermind that. Although Buu was a good deal stronger than Majin Vegeta was the margin that huge? I would like to know myself. How much stronger was SSJ3 Goku than Majin Vegeta? Vegeta did ok for himself the first few minutes if I recall.

These example just seem to me to suggest that even weaker characters can kill stronger foes by "concentrating" their energy into smaller points.
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Post by Tyro » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:29 am

BrollysKin wrote:Tenshinhans Kikoho: Yes he was injured, yes Nappa was powered up. But look at Kuririn's Kienzan. If Vegeta hadn't told him to move out of the way it would have slashed right through Nappa. Now Kuririn is weaker than Tenshinhan (that's pretty much irrefutable manga canon) I made the assumption that even with his arm blown off that he would have been at "about" equal strength as Kuririn, obviously that point isn't based off of hard evidence but none the less I feel it holds some ground. Even if Tenshinhan was weaker than Nappa, we should have seen some effect similar to what he did at the Tenkaichi Budokai years ago.
I really don't think you have to be stronger than your opponent for the Kienzan to work. The Kienzan just...cuts through anything, regardless of your power or your opponents (unless you're anime SSj2 Gohan). Base Goku cut through Shin Boo (Gotenks prime) with a Kienzan.
Goku's Genki Dama: You even said that no-one knows how Freeza was alive, by all accounts he should have been wiped out. But how he lost only his tail baffles me. :lol:
I'm just putting that out there. Even Freeza didn't think he'd live.
Vegeta's Final Explosion: Is there actually a "canon" name for this attack? I haven't heard of one besides the video games. Personally I think it sounds sexual... But nevermind that. Although Buu was a good deal stronger than Majin Vegeta was the margin that huge? I would like to know myself. How much stronger was SSJ3 Goku than Majin Vegeta? Vegeta did ok for himself the first few minutes if I recall.
Yeah, he named it. He called it "RAAA........!!!!" :lol: Up until Boo did his angry explosion he was weaker than Vegeta. I'll list some text on how he measures up to other characters.

Gohan (talking about Boo when he first came out of his shell): "...Seriously...? I admit he has a ton of ki...but I don't know about hopeless..."

Apparently Boo's base before any power-up was around SSj2 Gohan's power.

Gohan (talking about Boo when he does his first power-up): *Gohan's jaw drops. He's absolutely astounded.* "Boo's ki suddenly shot way up... His power is...absolutely incredible..."

So now any idea of Gohan thinking he might actually win a fight against Boo has been shot down. Instead, he tries to flee. Later, Vegeta shows up and as a SSj2, he beats the ever loving tar out of this version of Boo.

The next thing that happens has two possibilities. 1) Boo's "enraged blast" was not only an attack but also a power-up, because never again are we shown/is it stated that Boo's ki increased. Or 2) Boo does an off-panel power-up, and just survives Vegeta's explosion. Point is, now he's in the range of SSj3 Goku's power, although he seems weaker unless he wasn't taking the fight seriously and was just playing around, or had more power than what was shown.

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Post by denitonis » Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:01 am

Tyro wrote:I really don't think you have to be stronger than your opponent for the Kienzan to work. The Kienzan just...cuts through anything, regardless of your power or your opponents (unless you're anime SSj2 Gohan). Base Goku cut through Shin Boo (Gotenks prime) with a Kienzan.
If I remember correctly Kuririn threw a Kienzan to Perfect Cell's neck which just fell apart without him seemingly noticing.
Other than that I really don't have much input just wanted to point that out, of course I don't know if it was Canon but I believe the Goku parting Super Buu with a Kienzan wasn't Canon.
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Post by Humpski » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:14 am

denitonis wrote:If I remember correctly Kuririn threw a Kienzan to Perfect Cell's neck which just fell apart without him seemingly noticing.
That was anime filler. In the manga the Kienzan is an instant killer. (Unless the target can regenerate, which seems to happen way too often after the Freeza saga)
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Post by zoiozazu » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:50 am

Freeza's Genki Dama was bigger than Boo's Genki Dama...So i guess size is not crucial.
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Post by Duo » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:08 pm

denitonis wrote:
Tyro wrote:I really don't think you have to be stronger than your opponent for the Kienzan to work. The Kienzan just...cuts through anything, regardless of your power or your opponents (unless you're anime SSj2 Gohan). Base Goku cut through Shin Boo (Gotenks prime) with a Kienzan.
If I remember correctly Kuririn threw a Kienzan to Perfect Cell's neck which just fell apart without him seemingly noticing.
Other than that I really don't have much input just wanted to point that out, of course I don't know if it was Canon but I believe the Goku parting Super Buu with a Kienzan wasn't Canon.
Vice versa, actually. Goku uses the Kienzan on Majin Boo with Gotenks absorbed, but doesn't actually fight him. Kuririn's Kienzan on Cell never occurred in the Manga. Humpski is right, the Kienzan is pretty much an instant killer for anyone who doesn't regenerate when you remove fillers and movies.

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Post by Kaboom » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:44 pm

Kuririn may not have much power, but he sure knows how to make moves to get around it.
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Post by Duo » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:28 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:Kuririn may not have much power, but he sure knows how to make moves to get around it.
He was centimeters away from killing Nappa. Wouldn't that be a fun plot twist?

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Post by Kaboom » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:13 pm

Duo wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote:Kuririn may not have much power, but he sure knows how to make moves to get around it.
He was centimeters away from killing Nappa. Wouldn't that be a fun plot twist?
Yup. Even more so if he'd nailed Freeza with one.
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