Would the Dragon Ball series be more respected if Z didn't exist?

[WittyUsername]

There's really no point in even arguing that 'Z' is far more popular than its predecessor, even in Japan.

No one is arguing that it wasn't.

Yes, DBZ is the bigger name. Stop bringing it up. We all know it, but it's not the question before the coure. And not for a single second do I believe DB never would've found its way over here. Even obscure titles have been released here and DB wasn't obscure well before DBZ.

Stop bringing it up? I brought it up all of once before you responded to me. Also, DB was brought over to the West before Z...twice, and it flopped in both cases...

[ABED]

There's really no point in even arguing that 'Z' is far more popular than its predecessor, even in Japan.

No one is arguing that it wasn't.

Yes, DBZ is the bigger name. Stop bringing it up. We all know it, but it's not the question before the coure. And not for a single second do I believe DB never would've found its way over here. Even obscure titles have been released here and DB wasn't obscure well before DBZ.

Stop bringing it up? I brought it up all of once before you responded to me. Also, DB was brought over to the West before Z...twice, and it flopped in both cases...

It was a general response. We get it, DBZ is more popular. That's not at issue. As for DB flopping, a bad time slot will do that to you.

[MasenkoHA]

DBZ also flopped in the US until Toonami got the syndication rights.

As with the original Sailor Moon dub which also had a similar story (ran in syndication with early morning time slots failed and cancelled in the middle of the story and then got picked up by Toonami became a hit show and resuming with more episodes) DBZ is a heavy testament to the fact that shows need good timeslots to succeed.

[sintzu]

Indeed. Nor would Dragon Ball be allowed to run three years straight in Japan if it wasn't some type of succes

That's plain not true. No way Toriyama would've gotten to the Saiyan arc had DB not been popular.

I know it was successful during its run, I was talking about now.

Please stop saying the Saiyan arc is what launched it into a mega hit. Even that isn't the truth. DB was on a constant upward trajectory, much like Metallica was popular even before the Black Album.

This is true. what I mean is that the Saiyan arc pushed it to the next level, a level that wouldn't have been possible without it.

Take batman for example, its always been a successful franchise but the dark knight movie in 2008 pushed that to a whole new level that wouldn't have been possible without it.

Same thing with the comic book movie genre, if it weren't for the MCU then it wouldn't be what it is today.

[MasenkoHA]

Dark Knight didn't push Batman to a whole new level. The 60s series was a huge pop culture hit in its hey day with many big actors wanting to cameo on it. The hype for Batman 89 was also huge.


Yes Dark Knight ended up being bigger than both of those but it didn't take the franchise as a whole to a brand new level of pop culture importance.

[WittyUsername]

No one is arguing that it wasn't.

Yes, DBZ is the bigger name. Stop bringing it up. We all know it, but it's not the question before the coure. And not for a single second do I believe DB never would've found its way over here. Even obscure titles have been released here and DB wasn't obscure well before DBZ.

Stop bringing it up? I brought it up all of once before you responded to me. Also, DB was brought over to the West before Z...twice, and it flopped in both cases...

It was a general response. We get it, DBZ is more popular. That's not at issue. As for DB flopping, a bad time slot will do that to you.

I didn't say it was an issue. It was just something I assumed was worth bringing up, given that this thread is speculating how the series would've been received if all the stuff from the Saiyan arc and onwards didn't exist.

[sintzu]

Dark Knight didn't push Batman to a whole new level.

You're honostly the 1st person I've seen say this. not only did it push batman as a character up, it took his movie franchise and the comic genre as a whole up with him.

The dark knight, like the Saiyan arc, was a game changer and without it the franchise would've been very different today.

[ABED]

Dark Knight didn't push Batman to a whole new level.

You're honostly the 1st person I've seen say this. not only did it push batman as a character up, it took his movie franchise and the comic genre as a whole up with him.

The dark knight, like the Saiyan arc, was a game changer and without it the franchise would've been very different today.

Anyone who thinks that was not there for the Batman 89 craze.

[MasenkoHA]

. not only did it push Batman as a character up,

No it didn't. Batman was one of the most well know and iconic characters LONG before The Dark Knight.

it took his movie franchise

In terms of the fact that most of the live action movies were garbage until The Dark Knight? Sure. Being the most well recieved Batman movie both critically and financially? Sure. But the movie success outside of its own popularity and maybe itd sequel doesn't extend to the franchise as a whole.

and the comic genre as a whole up with him.

It made Warner Bros/DC think everything needs be grrrr dark no matter looking at why it worked. But Iron Man, the less successful of the two but still successful on its kw had a much long term impact on comic films as a whole.

Incidentally how many times have we heard "This is the movie that changed comic book movies FOREVER!

Superman:The Movie, Tim Burton's Batman, X-men, Spider-man 2, Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, Avengers

without it the franchise would've been very different today.

No, it really wouldn't have. The franchise would have been different without Batman 1989 which brought Batman as a dark avenger to the public perception.
The franchise would have been different without Batman and Robin even.

[sintzu]

Anyone who thinks that was not there for the Batman 89 craze.

I didn't say it was the only game changer batman had.

[ABED]

Anyone who thinks that was not there for the Batman 89 craze.

I didn't say it was the only game changer batman had.

Batman has arguably had more game changing moments than any other comic book character, with the possible exception of Superman. I was pointing out that The Dark Knight did not put Batman on another level of popularity. He was already there, had been knocked off and got to the top again. I would argue that Batman 89 was a far bigger game changer than even TDK. It changed the game not just for comic book movies.

I like DBZ a lot. My hat's off to its popularity, but what came before shouldn't be disregarded. I would love to see DB stop being disregarded. It's not a prequel and just because you can watch DBZ without ever having seen DB doesn't mean you should. It's like watching Angel without watching Buffy, but worse. At least Angel was a spin off. DB isn't a prequel and DBZ isn't a spin off.

Superman: The Movie, Tim Burton's Batman, X-men, Spider-man 2, Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, Avengers

Add Blade to the list, and maybe even Deadpool. And why Spider-Man 2? Great movie, but a game changer?

[sintzu]

I was pointing out that The Dark Knight did not put Batman on another level of popularity.

Just because you can watch DBZ without ever having seen DB doesn't mean you should.

It was the 1st cbm to reach a billion $, it was the 1st comic movie to get an oscar for best supporting actor & it led to the oscars rasing the number of movies that can be nominated for best picture. if that's not a game changer then what is ? that's a lot more than what 89 did.

Even if watching Z first will lead to someone being a fan of the whole franchise while watching DB first will lead them to drop it ?

[ABED]

I was pointing out that The Dark Knight did not put Batman on another level of popularity.

Just because you can watch DBZ without ever having seen DB doesn't mean you should.

It was the 1st cbm to reach a billion $, it was the 1st comic movie to get an oscar for best supporting actor & it led to the oscars rasing the number of movies that can be nominated for best picture. if that's not a game changer then what is ? that's a lot more than what 89 did.

Even if watching Z first will lead to someone being a fan of the whole franchise while watching DB first will lead them to drop it ?

TDK was released at a time when the dollar was worth less and ticket prices were higher. It's not an apple and oranges comparison. And more films getting nominated for an Oscar every year make it less prestigious to get nominated. You are comparing films released in VERY different eras. Foreign Box Office in 89 was not as mature a market as it was in 08.

89 Batman changed the way blockbusters are marketed. People went to movies they didn't want to see just to watch the trailer.

Why would watching the beginning lead them to drop it? You're probably right that DBZ is probably the series that will hook more people from the beginning, but it's sad because it's not the beginning. They are coming into the story in the middle. DBZ is NOT more action packed if you actually pay attention. It might seem that way and it's perceived that way, but I don't think it's actually true.

[MasenkoHA]

. And why Spider-Man 2? Great movie, but a game changer?

I despise Spider-man 2 with the passion of a thousand white hot suns but when it came out it was being hailed as "the best comic book movie ever" and setting a new bar for comic book movies. I don't personally think it did anything that Spider-man the first one (make costumed super hero movies marketable again after Batman and Robin killed them) but there you go.

I think its easy to forget how much praise Spider-man 2
was getting because Batman Begins came out like less than a year after and took its place

You're right I should have added Blade since that was the movie that proved comic book movies could still be lucrative.


Really my original point is we've been fed the "This is the comic book movie to change/set the new standard for all comic book movies" like soooo many times.

[sintzu]

Why would watching the beginning lead them to drop it ?

first impressions are everything. I can't talk for everyone but the look of Z is what got me interested in it.

This image is what got me into it.



If the 1st thing I saw was this



Then I would've just thought it was a stupid children's show and wouldn't look back again. I would've missed out on so much if that's the 1st thing I saw of DB.

[ABED]

. And why Spider-Man 2? Great movie, but a game changer?

I despise Spider-man 2 with the passion of a thousand white hot suns but when it came out it was being hailed as "the best comic book movie ever" and setting a new bar for comic book movies. I don't personally think it did anything that Spider-man the first one (make costumed super hero movies marketable again after Batman and Robin) but there you go.


You're right I should have added Blade since that was the movie that proved comic book movies could still be lucrative.


Really my original point is we've been fed the "This is the comic book movie to change/set the new standard for all comic book movies" like soooo many times.

I think SM2 did everything the first did and better. Better villain, acting, action, story, dialog. The first one feels very wooden to me.

Blade also showed that obscure comic book properties could be profitable. And yes, you are correct, there have been many game changers in the genre. However, I do think a comparison between DB and TDK trilogy is apt. The Dark Knight is the more popular film and overshadows the first film, much in the same way DBZ overshadows DB. Plus, I think Begins is the best of the trilogy, much like I think DB is the best part of the entire DB saga.

Sintzu, those images would've told me nothing in either case. I like plenty of children's shows, so that wouldn't be off putting. I also don't care for plenty of action shows, so a cool image isn't enough to entice me.

[sintzu]

Those images would've told me nothing in either case.

That's how I pick my shows and games, the cover or main image is what makes or breaks anything for me.

Why would watching the beginning lead them to drop it?

Show the 2 pictures I posted to someone aged 10 or older and see which one they'd watch.

[ABED]

But there's a lot of great art out there. Death Note had great art, but it was incredibly boring. I need characters and stories to keep me interested. Both DB and DBZ had that, and I like to read/watch stories from the beginning. DBZ is not the beginning. It's like pretty girls on promotional images for a TV series. I like pretty girls, but that's not enough to get me to watch a TV show.

the cover or main image is what makes or breaks anything for me.

You judge a book by its cover.

Show the 2 pictures I posted to someone aged 10 or older and see which one they'd watch.

Then I would've just thought it was a stupid children's show

[MasenkoHA]

If it means anything what got my attention as a kid was how bad@ss and cool Shenron looked than anything and he's in both versions. I would have probably got into Dragon Ball if it had aired on Kidswb or Fox Kids in the mid 90s


Sintzu isn't wrong that kids make pre-judgments based on how something looks.

[sintzu]

I like to read/watch stories from the beginning. DBZ is not the beginning.

I do think it's important to watch something from the beginning but if for whatever reason someone doesn't then they should go back and watch what they missed. you and me experienced the story differently (you started from the beginning while I started from the middle then went back to the beginning) but we both know how everything came together from start to finish and that's to me more improtant then where someone started.

If someone doesn't like DB then that's fine, likeing at least one part of the story is better than nothing but I do think anyone who's started with Z needs to go back and watch the original just once to know how everything started and evolved over time.